D IY - Shop helpful information for Hybrids maint

[g20ooh]

Use the Power: 10 Hybrid Services You Can Perform Today
by Sam Bell


Excellent article covering all Hybrids and what you can do in terms of service and repair without specialized training or equipment .(Also , how to stay safe .)

As an example , item #7 although short AND applicable only to the prius , gives useful information on the battery ventilation/cooling system (#3) .

Excerpted ( less than 7.5% of article text ) from the MAY2007 Issue of Motor magazine .


http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/052007_10.html

7 Belts, wipers, HVAC system. Because the main battery pack must not be exposed to extreme heat, the a/c must work. This is not an option. The Prius has its own battery compartment ventilation < cooling > system, with a rear fender-mounted vent and an air intake on the rear filler panel. (We used to call this the “parcel shelf,” until someone realized that parcels become unguided missiles during hard stops or collisions.) It's imperative that the rear filler panel intake be unobstructed at all times .
The penalty for obstruction may range as high as $5000 for a new battery pack. Don't leave the car in the paint-baking booth, either -"

For a useful picture concerning what this is discussing go to the following thread and look at the picture of the battery area that EP has so graciously provided .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=3&vc=1

EP (et al) , I believe in light of the above information the referenced thread merits a revue and doesn't deserve to be locked .
I can't be certain , but there appears to be a misunderstanding there concerning sources .

As this post makes clear , a reputable source , one of the most respected in the industry , was used , and item #7 , although not used in its entirety , was used verbatim for the quotes under question .

 

[Aldaris]

 

[ekpolk]

G20:

Some of the info in that article is valid, some is not. BTW, I do maintain a current subscription to Toyota's Technical Information Service (TIS). This gives me instant, on-line access to all Toyota/Lexus service manuals, TSBs, owner's manuals, bulletins, and even some sales propaganda. It's a great service. I've cross-checked a lot of the stuff you see in the press about the Prius, and an astonishing amount of it is inaccurate.

For example, you posted from the article:

Quote:

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7 Belts, wipers, HVAC system. Because the main battery pack must not be exposed to extreme heat, the a/c must work. This is not an option. The Prius has its own battery compartment ventilation < cooling > system, with a rear fender-mounted vent and an air intake on the rear filler panel. (We used to call this the “parcel shelf,” until someone realized that parcels become unguided missiles during hard stops or collisions.) It's imperative that the rear filler panel intake be unobstructed at all times .
The penalty for obstruction may range as high as $5000 for a new battery pack. Don't leave the car in the paint-baking booth, either -"

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First, to be perfectly clear, that Paragraph or Item Number 7 in the article. The car does NOT have seven belts. In fact, this design has completely done away with PS, AC, alternator belts. So this statement in the article

Quote:

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Belt replacement on hybrids is unremarkable. Again, make sure the ICE is off and stays off. Wiper blade replacement is conventional and should pose no problems as well.

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sorta undercuts their cred, since the car has no belt-driven PS, AC, or alternator.

Second, and I realize this is their inaccuracy, but you're endorsing it here, the vent is not on a "parcel shelf". Actually, its almost vertical. Location? Picture being the passenger in the right, rear outboard position. The vent will be between your right shoulder and the door.

Again, it can be blocked by cargo, or a passenger who really tries to block it, but the dire warnings in the article you cite are NOT valid. As with the Escape hyb, the Prius is designed to carefully watch over its battery. If it gets too hot, the car warns you and reduces draw/charge on the batt so as to protect it from harm.

Here's another inaccruate statement from the article:

Quote:

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Once the new filter and lube are installed, you'll need to start the ICE to fill the filter and check for leaks, just as you do on a conventional vehicle. This is easily done in the conventional way for Honda products, but requires selecting MAX A/C on Toyota and Ford hybrids to make them restart their ICEs.

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It is true that if the ICE is not on, and you want to make it go, Max AC will accomplish that. But you certainly don't need to do this after an oil change. The car has a programmed-in warm up cycle that runs the ICE for a brief time on EVERY start up (it cuts in seven seconds after you push the Power button, and runs for a minute or two depending upon conditions). Its purpose is largely to ensure hot cats.

Anyway, two points here. First, just because something appears in a "reputable" source does not mean it's accurate -- especially when the article is about hybrids. Second, relying on such a source does not get a free pass for the poster if the info is not accurate.

I'll make you this offer: if you have any question about some aspect of the Prius, post a question or PM me, and I'll be happy to check TIS and see what the official tech pubs say about it.

And let's keep the attitude under control, both of us, no, all of us. I know Tony (RIP) before, and Helen now absolutely do not intend for this place to be dominated by the unpleasant attitude so prevalent on some other automotive boards. Need I say more?

EDIT: Oh yeah, also inaccurate: replacement for a traction battery is $2300, plus labor, and it's only about an hour job to swap them (it would NOT cost $5000). Second, the car can be painted, including the time in the booth, but there is a procedure (seen it in passing on TIS, don't recall the particulars).

 

[g20ooh]

Edited by g20ooh by choice , to "zero"

 

[g20ooh]

Ekpolk , gotta go do some of my volunteer work , so have to get back on this later .


On your near last to last , agree completely on the spirit and tone of that .......


I'm wondering about some things (nontechnical) I may have missed in the bigger scheme of things .........

 

[ekpolk]

Cool.

Please do remember as we continue these "debates," that I really don't think that the Toyota/Lex Hybrids are perfect cars, nor are they in any sense a "best" choice for everyone. I'm sure it's pretty apparent that I like the concept, and that it works for me. On the other hand, I'm not trying to sell anyone else one (though I did just receive a $50 check from the local Toyota for sending over a friend who ended up buying a Camry Hybrid). You gotta go with what you feel works for you, and what makes you comfortable to own. That said, I do feel that in many instances, especially in the motor press, the HSD cars don't get an entirely fair shake. Perhaps in the long run the concept will fade. But I do think that being able to recapture the vast amounts of energy that conventional cars just throw away is a huge advantage that is worth continued development. Personally, I'd like to see the combustion efficiency of a diesel combined with (vs pitted against, as if they are mutually exclusive concepts) the ability to recapture "used" energy. Let the arguments rage on.

 

[g20ooh]

Sometimes its just about the basics of communications .

Rather than post a lot of text , I - we are going to just 'start this thread over' .


I believe when that is done and we all go forward from there , it will be obvious why this is a good idea .



--------

Use the Power: 10 Hybrid Services You Can (Easily) Perform Today .

by Sam Bell .


Good article covering ( 10 easy Services Areas on the 5 most common Hybrids )

The 5 Hybrids covered here are the Ford Escape, the Honda Civic and Insight , the Mercury Mariner, and the Toyota Prius .

The 10 "Areas Of Service" are as follows ;

#1.) Oil and filter change .

#2.) Transmission Service .

#3.) Tire and Wheel Service .

#4.) Brake Service .

#5.) Conventional Battery Service and Replacement .

#6.) Cooling System Service .

#7.){aka 'item' 7} Belts,Wipers, and HVAC Systems .

#8.) Ignition Service / Tuneup .

#9.) Exhaust And Emissions Control Systems .

#10.) Suspension And Steering Systems .



As an example , here is Service Area #7 .

Excerpted ( (still) less than 7.5% of article text ) from the MAY2007 Issue of Motor magazine .


http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/052007_10.html

Service Area #7.) Belts, wipers, and HVAC Systems.


On all these vehicles , the main battery pack must not be exposed to extreme heat .

In regards to this , On the Toyota Prius , the a/c must work. This is not an option.

The Prius has its own battery compartment ventilation < cooling > system, with a rear fender-mounted vent and on the 2001 - 2003 , an air intake on the rear filler panel.

(We used to call this the “parcel shelf,” until someone realized that parcels become unguided missiles during hard stops or collisions.)

( Note : The 2004 and newer Prius relocates this vent to the right rear passenger (outboard) shoulder area .)


In either case , It's imperative that this intake be unobstructed at all times .

The penalty for obstruction may range as high as $5000 for a new battery pack.
( NOTE : The battery is slightly larger and more expensive on the 2001 - 2003 . Prices may also vary by Dealer and Region .)

Don't leave the car in the paint-baking booth, either .

Although the Ford Escape hybrid is designed to automatically disconnect the high-voltage batteries any time their temperature exceeds 140°F, even if the ignition is on, I wouldn't advise relying on it .

For a useful picture concerning what this is discussing in regards to the Prius , go to the following thread and look at the picture of the battery area that EP has so graciously provided .

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=3&vc=1


Belt replacement on hybrids( when so equiped , ) is unremarkable. Again, make sure the ICE is off and stays off.

Wiper blade replacement is conventional and should pose no problems as well .


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EKPOLK , As to your other , a simple label on their part or mine , and optionally , perhaps a little more text in regards to 2004+ ...... funny thing is I 'knew' they meant the 2001 - 2003 . ( If interested , see their original text in its entirety for why .)

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The intent here in 'starting over' was for increased accuracy AND clarity for those in the DIY Community .
If you see anything that needs changing for those purposes would you please have at it ?

 

[ekpolk]

OK, I see the "parcel shelf" ref being to the earlier "sedan shaped" Prius. But still, they are way overstating the "danger" of an overheated battery. Again, the car will tell you there is a problem in this regard, and if you persist and ignore the warning, the system will act on its own to protect itself. Additionally, the claim that the AC "must" work is not correct. Many neophyte Prius drivers have tried cutting off the AC to save gas, a workable strategy in a conventional. The worst thing that happens is that mileage may go UP a little.

The oil change bit in the article is, as I noted, off as well.

One other thing the authors failed to credit to the Prius (while noting the funky effects of feeding the Honda CVT the wrong fluid): the Prius CVT is NOT one of those "belt and cone" designs like virtually every other one out there (except Nissan's novel design that's just appearing in the Murano, IIRC). The Prius uses Toyota's WS fluid, same as a Camry, Avalon, etc. But unlike conventional modern automatics, which usually require in excess of 10 quarts to fill, the Prius takes only four. And it's an easy drain-and-fill change, with no torque converter hassles or pumping machines necessary for a complete change.

I just want to know why so many writers harp incessantly on the car's potential problems (many of which aren't really problems at all), while usually totally skipping over its substantial advantages.

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

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The oil change bit in the article is, as I noted, off as well.

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First things first - so the oil is it .

Ekpolk , nothing personal here , but the article is correctly written - you seem to be thinking about a different procedure - situation or something else . My guess is , you missed the bit about checking for leaks - and the implicit assumption that the car is still on the rack after the oil change .

From the article verbatim - my adds in bold .

" - Oil and filter change. There are a couple of things you'll need to know and pay extra attention to, but this service is very similar to its conventional-engine counterpart. Since, as I said, the ICE might otherwise restart itself, the most important thing is to make sure the vehicle is truly switched off before pulling the ICE drain plug. While the Honda Insight requires a special oil filter, all other Honda hybrids take a standard Honda oil filter. All Honda hybrids require a 0W-20 oil. All Toyota hybrids use standard Toyota oil filters and, to date, specify a 5W-30 oil—or, in the case of the most recent models, a 5W-20 oil. The Ford Escape hybrid specifies a 5W-20 lube and a 3S7Z-6731A oil filter. Honda and Toyota recommend replacing the drain plug gasket with every oil change. This helps reduce the torque required to avoid oil leaks from the plug, so it prolongs oil pan thread life.

Once the new filter and lube are installed, ( and while the car is still on the lift ) you'll need to start the ICE to fill the filter and check for leaks, just as you do on a conventional vehicle. This is easily done in the conventional way for Honda products, but requires selecting MAX A/C on Toyota and Ford hybrids to make them restart their ICEs. Reset any maintenance reminders per the usual procedures before shipping the car. - "


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Imagine , a GOOD tech with a prius on a lift , who is going to check for leaks before bringing the car off that lift .

Also , I don't think anyone would think that having to put MAX a/c on is a big deal to start the car in this situation - I certainly don't .

I do think that when the oil is changed without a lift you have pointed out another way to go thats useful ,and a shorter step for a DIY .


Technically I'm guessing , but the probable reason they didn't is because most shops most times are going to be using a lift - Motor is not in error here .Your assumptions are just different than theirs .

 

[ekpolk]

Respecfully disagree; the O/C thing is still goofy. I'll use that more vague term, as I suppose you could say that they're not technically in "error" as that procedure will actually work, but contrary to what they say, it's certainly not necessary. Lift or not, you obviously need the ICE on to check for leaks. All you have to do is punch the power button, and you'll have the ICE running via the "start-up cycle". Unless the tech feels the need to check the car for an extended period of time, then you won't "need" to use MAX AC to keep it running (but again, you can).

Perhaps more alarmingly, the quoted text regarding oil viscosity is wrong. Although Toyota is now making the move toward 20 wt oils, and about a year ago they "back spec-ed" a bunch of previously 5w-30 cars to 5w-20 (done via TSB), they have NOT made the move for the Prius. In fact, there was a separate TSB, and an explicit exception in the "back spec" TSB, that clearly stated that the Prius is staying with 30 wt oil. The text quoted below is from page LU-5 of the TIS on-line service manual for the 2007 Prius (it was in a table in the PDF, and the formatting is off...):

Quote:

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Engine oil
Oil Grade Oil Viscosity (SAE)
ILSAC multigrade engine oil • 5W-30
• 10W-30
(SAE 5W-30 is the best choice for fuel economy and good
starting in cold weather.)

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[g20ooh]

Quote:

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Perhaps more alarmingly, the quoted text regarding oil viscosity is wrong. Although Toyota is now making the move toward 20 wt oils, and about a year ago they "back spec-ed" a bunch of previously 5w-30 cars to 5w-20 (done via TSB), they have NOT made the move for the Prius. In fact, there was a separate TSB, and an explicit exception in the "back spec" TSB, that clearly stated that the Prius is staying with 30 wt oil. The text quoted below is from page LU-5 of the TIS on-line service manual for the 2007 Prius (it was in a table in the PDF, and the formatting is off...):

Quote:

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Engine oil
Oil Grade Oil Viscosity (SAE)
ILSAC multigrade engine oil • 5W-30
• 10W-30
(SAE 5W-30 is the best choice for fuel economy and good
starting in cold weather.)

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Ekpolk , the critical line here in the article reads ( broken into three parts ) ;

" - All Toyota hybrids> (Notice - not restricted to just the Prius ) use standard Toyota oil filters and, to date, specify a 5W-30 oil -" ( thru this line the point you make about the Prius is covered )

"—or,"


" - in the case of the most recent models, a 5W-20 oil.( this covers ( also in line with the information you just provided) other Toyota Hybrids when they do spec a 5w20 .) The Ford Escape hybrid specifies a 5W-20 - "

In sum , oil recommendations are correct here as written .

Since this mentions other Toyota hybrids that do use 5w20 maybe for completeness we should list those here as well ?

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

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Respecfully disagree; the O/C thing is still goofy. I'll use that more vague term, as I suppose you could say that they're not technically in "error" as that procedure will actually work, but contrary to what they say, it's certainly not necessary. ( OK , what would be a better procedure in this situation if I wanted the vehicle to run continiously for 5-10 minutes min. with the max possible certainity of no interruption - esp. in regards to a 2001-2003 Prius ? ) Lift or not, you obviously need the ICE on to check for leaks. All you have to do is punch the power button, and you'll have the ICE running via the "start-up cycle". (Yes , but for how long ? In the situations where the vehicle shuts down correctly after a minute or two , thats not necc. anywhere near long enough to correctly check for leaks . and do whatever else the tech wants to do while the ICE is running . Also ,there are differences between the earlier priuses that we keep skipping over . This is the main Prius focus here - thats whats showing up in the Independent shops now more often . ) Unless the tech feels the need to check the car for an extended period of time, then you won't "need" to use MAX AC to keep it running (but again, you can).(

, what would be a better procedure here than just making sure the MAX A/C is on . )

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Is this not the most practical 'best' recommendation to make sure the engine not only starts but keeps running as long as the tech or DIY wants it to ? while on the lift , checking for leaks etc . And why is this so - at least in my book ? Because it requires the least amount of time and effort and will work no matter what with no further effort on a nominal vehicle in for routine service .

Again , If we think like an Independent Shop Owner some things become clearer .

Call it useful simplification - if you want .

When faced with several choices on how accomplish something on a vehicle the one thats going to be a winner is the one that is safe and acceptable in all the other ways that necc. matter while being fast and certain ie , works evey time in all situations , is easy to do , and remember .

If there is one better I would like to know it .

 

[ekpolk]

Again, my real point is that the article you cited, while certainly containing a lot of valid information, is also laced with a fair amount of info that suggests that the authors really don't know all that much about the cars they're discussing. And therefore, their credibility is, in my eyes, suspect at least to some extent. Max AC is certainly one way to get the ICE on and have it stay on. There's also a diagnostic mode (slightly harder to use than Max AC, but any good tech should be up to it) that would accomplish the same thing. Yet these guys, writing for car maintainers, don't mention it.

And as to the viscosity thing, while I doubt much harm would come of using 5w-20 in a Prius, arguably promoting the use of the wrong grade oil isn't very swift. I've added "arguably" there. I see your point, but the fact remains that the statement is ambiguous at best. You simply don't use vague statements like "most recent models" when stating which cars use one oil and which use another. Which are the "most recent models" and which are not??? Either way you slice it, not very good in my opinion.

The article was assembled, presuambly, by professional writers who should know their subject matter cold. Fact checking is easy. You can get a 24 hour membership to TIS for only $10 (a month is $50, a year $350). IMO, they should have spent the 10 bucks...

BTW, ironically one REAL issue with the Prius (not related IMO to its hybrid nature) is that some cars seem to generate substantial fuel dilution in the oil (mine is one of them). Toyota is silent on this issue so far, but my personal theory is that this is why they excepted the Prius from the xw-20 back spec TSB and left it a 5w-30 car.

 

[gtx510]

I found this site interesting and I don't even own a hybrid.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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I found this site interesting and I don't even own a hybrid.

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Outstanding site. It's obvious both that they know what they're talking about, and they're not beholden to Toyota or Honda. Thanks for posting that link.

 

[PandaBear]

As a potential purchaser of hybrid I think the problem is way overstated.

If I wanted to be safe, just using Xw30 instead of Xw20 is not going to damage the engine or waste too much fuel, since most of the waste is in the aero and weight, not the lube friction. (they are so close in vis anyways)

Turning on max AC after oil change is not that bad. Heck, I have changed oil filters on Honda that install them between firewall and engine, now that is stupid.

Paint job? what paint job? I would pick a car that is good for the first 10 years rather than how good it will be after 10 years of wear and tear. There are many other cars I would have chosen over hybrid if I want easy to fix over best for the design life (i.e. a corolla - everything is easy to access, or integra - with all sorts of aftermarket upgrade/replacement including the used bumper I have with matching color for $60).

CVT, while not a hybrid specific option, would not be a problem if you pick the right one. Toyota's IVT (so they call, the planetary gear type) is mechanically bullet proof and is the main reason I consider their hybrid rather than Nissan's CVT or the regular Camry 5spd auto or Honda's 5spd auto (with known problem).

Ok, I am a bit biased because I have done some hybrid work back in school and saw first hand how much damage the steel belt CVT can have when slipped, and have seen enough horror in the Acura TL community in the 99-03 auto fiasco. So my concern and priority may not be typical.

But come on, the only major potential problem is the battery and it only cost $2300 + 1 hr labor ($85 here), compare to the fuel saving for say, another 5 years of useful life, this is a good deal for many people. So don't fight over the small issues.

 

[PandaBear]

BTW, an auto tranny rebuild (if you are unlucky) at 10 years 150k miles or a clutch replacement could have cost the same as the battery replacement as the Prius battery replacement. While it is rare (for some model, but certain for some others) that a tranny will fail at around 150k, most people wouldn't factor that in when complaining about the cost of a non-hybrid.

Am I right?

 

[brianl703]

In what car does the clutch cost $2300 to replace???

 

[PandaBear]

Oops, I meant $2300 for auto tranny and 10 year 150k miles for the clutch. I've heard that a clutch replacement on some car can cost up to $1k, that's about it.

 

[JustinH]

bah, i'd rather just buy a gas corolla and call it a day.