Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead

[Dirty_Howie]

Glad to see this informative dialogue going on.

Just to be clear these LS7 motors can cost $17 to replace when all is said and done. So spinning a bearing was a major concern for me. And I don't know where else the lead would be coming from.

Thanks to the advise I received here I was able to stop losing sleep over this issue.

DH

 

[Garak]

It's certainly a concern, and I'd share your concern if it were me. But, remember, these are tiny little concentrations, and they could be indicative of a problem. However, the chance that a high HTHS oil like Red Line is putting you in danger of spinning a bearing is pretty remote. These things can use low HTHS ILSAC lubes, and Red Line 5w-30 is a danger?

Of course, that's the problem with trying to compare UOAs across different viscosities and chemistries - chasing shadows and parts per million. Now, like I said, I'd certainly be concerned about it, too, but it would be interesting to see what other Red Line UOAs look like in the same engine family, and what is actually going on. And, what you did is perfectly acceptable and sensible.

The real danger in using Red Line is the cost. I know you meant $17,000 to replace, but Red Line is like $17 a litre.

 

[Gokhan]

What is missing in this discussion is that lead-bearing wear is not only caused by mechanical wear (hydrodynamics, viscosity, and additives playing a role) but also acids, which are combustion byproducts coming from nitrites, sulfates, base-oil oxidation, and so on. Detergents are supposed to protect against acids but they need to be bench-tested in the given base-oil and additive package to make sure that they work. Unfortunately, Red Line doesn't seem to carry out bench tests. One thing I noticed is the extremely high moly content. Moly fights for surfaces as well as detergents and it may be what is preventing from detergents removing the acids from the surfaces. Also, ester base stocks strongly fight for surfaces and they may also be preventing the detergents from doing their job in removing the acids from the lead bearings.

There is a very good paper by Chevron Oronite (link) on how lead corrosion is a huge concern in heavy-duty diesel engines and how critical the choice of detergents in the oil is to prevent this.

 

[Dirty_Howie]

Yes $17,000 !!!!!!

And that is why I had no problem paying double or triple the cost of another oil if it was going to protect my motor better.

DH

 

[Garak]

No, it's not missing. I'm aware of corrosion. What's really missing is how many PPM corresponds to how much wear, and that's missing because that cannot be accomplished.

Dirty Howie: The last time I saw Canadian Tire have a good clearance price on anything, it was when they were getting rid of Red Line. Of course, two litres at a good price is essentially useless.

 

[Dirty_Howie]

I can go to Walmart and get Mobil cheap. Or I can go to any local auto parts store, they all carry it. So much easier to get and of course cheaper than Redline.

I have a little trepidation concerning the reformulation of Mobil1 0w40. Do you know anything about it? Should be changing my oil in a few weeks I hope there is no change in my lead readings..........

DH

 

[Garak]

There is something to be said for availability - a lot to be said for it. I wouldn't be concerned about the new M1 0w-40 formulation. It meets pretty much all the same things it did before, aside from LL-01.

Unfortunately, as much as we can be annoyed by reformulations, I think we have to resign ourselves to them being a fact of life.

 

[Gokhan]

M1 0W-40, both the old and new versions, is the wrong oil for your engine. GM factory-filled it with M1 5W-30 and that's what is recommended. Your bearing issue has nothing to do with the viscosity and thick oil will only increase your oil and bearing temperatures and rob off your horsepower and fuel economy.

 

[robertcope]

You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: robertcope
You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.

I would think that Corvette engines are built in a single factory and therefore they are factory-filled and shipped with the same oil regardless of where they are finally exported to.

We keep going around this CAFE-conspiracy nonsense in circles.

There is no need to use a thicker oil than recommended by the manufacturer. It will not reduce wear and it will not protect your engine better. In fact, it will do more harm than good. Why do you think higher oil temperature and less oil flow is good for your engine? In addition, you are losing horsepower and burning more fuel.

See my thread on thin or thick:

Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

 

[Dirty_Howie]

 

[PimTac]

Looks like GM has the final verdict here.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40, both the old and new versions, is the wrong oil for your engine. GM factory-filled it with M1 5W-30 and that's what is recommended.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: robertcope
You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.

I would think that Corvette engines are built in a single factory and therefore they are factory-filled and shipped with the same oil (Read:5W30 .... my insertion) regardless of where they are finally exported to.

We keep going around this CAFE-conspiracy nonsense in circles.


Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Sounds too familiar here ........

 

[zeng]

Quote:
but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion.....

I'm certainly not qualified to interpret Redlines effectiveness or lead leaching issues. ....
Before I switched to Mobil 0w40 I was sure I had a worn bearing issue that I had to deal with.....

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Quote:
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.

That's because few cars have lead bearings today and few people use Red Line.
It could be anything, such as an incompatibility between the base oil and detergent that prevents the detergent from inhibiting corrosion.


Loads of rubbixh, we have here.

Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !







...... and Red Line 5W30 UOA's in 2012-2010, 5-7 ppm lead ..

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !

That's because those bearings have 0% lead to begin with.

And your explanation for the high lead?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.

You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.


The car in question is a 2006, that pamphlet is from 2008.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.


GM has recommended M1 15w-50 in more recent applications for track use that otherwise spec 5w-30 for day-to-day. Since the OP autocrosses the car, I don't see using the 0w-40 as being illogical.

This is from the 2014 Corvette manual:

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That's because those bearings have 0% lead to begin with.

Wow ....... what a wild, baseless and sweeping falsehoods typically being spewed, as always,in most of your postings in Bitog.
I'd presented my evidences in the four UOA's above, pl provide your evidence to members here to support "your falsehoods that ALL above bearings are lead-free" as truth !



Quote:
Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !


GM 6.2L V8 engine with 4 UOA samples ,out of which:
a)1 UOA sample confirms presence of lead, other than that
b)all 4 UOA samples show presence of copper/tin combination , by extension, indicating a lead alloy trimetal bearing in use.

Quote:


Ford 2.0L EcoBoost has 6 UOA samples, out of which:
a)2 UOA samples confirms presence of lead, and on top of that,
b)all 6 UOA samples show presence of copper/tin combination, pointing to a lead alloy trimetal bearing being in use.


Quote:


Unknown engine has 1 UOA sample demonstrating:
a)confirms presence of lead in bearing/overlay materials, and besides that,
b)presence of copper/nickel combination points to a lead alloy trimetal bearing.

Quote:
...... and Red Line 5W30 UOA's in 2012-2010, 5-7 ppm lead ..



Nissan 3.7L V6 has 3 UOA samples whereby:
a)all 3 UOA samples confirms presence of lead in bearing, and
b)all 3 UOA samples show presence of copper/nickel combination, again pointing to a lead alloy trimetal bearing being used.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!

You are one of those people who troll other people's posts without bringing a single idea into the discussion.

I repeat my question to you above. You are the one side-tracking and trolling me. If you don't know the answer, stop talking.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.

The car in question is a 2006, that pamphlet is from 2008.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.

GM has recommended M1 15w-50 in more recent applications for track use that otherwise spec 5w-30 for day-to-day. Since the OP autocrosses the car, I don't see using the 0w-40 as being illogical.

This is from the 2014 Corvette manual:



Yes, like with any engine, OP may benefit from a thicker oil if he is racing. However, benefits, if any, depend on many factors.