Can a high HTHS ever be detrimental to engine protection?

Bearings are the bigger concern due to how quickly they can fail when oil pressure gets critically low.
Low oil pressure (meaning less overall flow going through the oiling system) can certainly damage bearings. Lack of oil flow could cause higher temps in the bearing oil film due to shearing (which reduces the MOFT and caused even more heating), and can be a problem if the pump can't supply more flow than the bearing will naturally "self pump" due to its rotation speed. A good oil pump and a well designed oiling system is critical to keeping an engine in good condition.

But even with adequate oil pressure (ie you see high oil pressure on the dash gauge), if a bearing is too tight, causing too small of MOFT and that small MOFT is also causing a large temperature rise in the oil (ref graph in post 31), which further reduces the viscosity in the bearing, it can become a major run-away condition and smoke bearings pretty fast.
 
Low oil pressure (meaning less overall flow going through the oiling system) can certainly damage bearings. Lack of oil flow could cause higher temps in the bearing oil film due to shearing (which reduces the MOFT and caused even more heating), and can be a problem if the pump can't supply more flow than the bearing will naturally "self pump" due to its rotation speed. A good oil pump and a well designed oiling system is critical to keeping an engine in good condition.

But even with adequate oil pressure (ie you see high oil pressure on the dash gauge), if a bearing is too tight, causing too small of MOFT and that small MOFT is also causing a large temperature rise in the oil (ref graph in post 31), which further reduces the viscosity in the bearing, it can become a major run-away condition and smoke bearings pretty fast.
isn't the too small bearing causing low MOFT what killed a bunch of BMW engines (and got them to spec 10w60 oil)
 
isn't the too small bearing causing low MOFT what killed a bunch of BMW engines (and got them to spec 10w60 oil)
Not sure, I haven't dig very deep into that whole debacle. Too small/tight bearing clearances will result in a smaller MOFT and a higher oil temperature rise (higher shear rate) in journal bearings. A thicker oil may not be able to "fix"/overcome that. Journal bearings only really wear when hydrodynamic lubrication is lost (for whatever reason) and MOFT goes to zero. In a worst case scenario, they can really snowball and go down hill fast, even causing the bearing to seize and spin, and possibly lock up the rod causing it to snap and window the block.
 
Last edited:
What oils were used in that test to achieve the different test HTHS viscosities ... and were they multi-viscosity oils and all have the same AF/AW formulation? What are the symbols on the curve representing?

Happen to have a link to the study? I'd like to see the details of that testing.

With the sump at 150C, the oil inside the journal bearings will be even higher than that under those conditions.
You're were on quite a roll there Zee, six in a row and all quite informative. Thanks.
 
Yeah, not many engines would be in pump relief with fully hot oil ... maybe some of those crazy pumped Subarus, lol.
I think it's quite common. Here's an example of a Ford inline-6 engine with an oil pump that is always in pressure relief above 1,500 rpm, even when the oil is at 120°C.

Oil Pump Bypass Operation.jpg


A lot of engines seem to have a pressure-rpm curve like this. With a PD pump that isn't in relief, oil pressure and flow will both increase linearly with rpm, like in the figure below.

A typical American V8 that has a warm oil pressure of 25 psi at 800 rpm, but a pressure of only 50 psi at 4,000 rpm is going to be in pressure relief at high rpm. If there was no pressure relief, the flow rate would be 5 times higher at 4,000 rpm than at 800 rpm, and oil pressure would be closer to 125 psi. The highly non-linear flow/pressure to rpm relationship indicates that the pump is in pressure relief.

Oil Pump Flow Rate vs RPM - Non-Ideal.jpg


Speaking of Subarus, their oiling systems are like the one in the second figure, and typical of Japanese engines. Oil pressure is rather low at idle, and rises linearly with rpm. On my Subaru, hot (120°C) oil pressure is 5.1 psi at 600 rpm, and 47 psi at >5,000 rpm, with a pressure relief setting of 102 psi.

Even is an oil pump is in pressure relief with hot oil, there's still a high volume of flow going on.
The reduction in flow to the bearings could be quite substantial. An oil with twice the viscosity might result in around half the oil flow rate when the oil pump is in pressure relief.

This could be the reason bearing wear was increased with thicker oil in the study with the Ford V-6, and why there was no significant difference in the Toyota study, which in all likelihood used at engine that wasn't in pressure relief.
 
I think it's quite common. Here's an example of a Ford inline-6 engine with an oil pump that is always in pressure relief above 1,500 rpm, even when the oil is at 120°C.

1713488638162.jpg
3.2 bars (315 kPa) is only 45.7 PSI. That's a pretty low PD oil pump pressure relief setting. All the pumps I've looked into have a pressure relief setting more like 75-80 or more PSI or more. Those Subarus have a pretty high pump pressure relief setting - around 102 PSI on some I've seen. The above example isn't a common thing from what I've seen - what year was that Ford in-line 6 cylinder? Having a pump pressure relief that low seems odd, especially when it shows that engine having around 65 PSI of oil pressure with 100C oil at 5500 RPM. Did you add the relief valve pressure of 315 kPa annotation on that graph?

A lot of engines seem to have a pressure-rpm curve like this. With a PD pump that isn't in relief, oil pressure and flow will both increase linearly with rpm, like in the figure below.

A typical American V8 that has a warm oil pressure of 25 psi at 800 rpm, but a pressure of only 50 psi at 4,000 rpm is going to be in pressure relief at high rpm. If there was no pressure relief, the flow rate would be 5 times higher at 4,000 rpm than at 800 rpm, and oil pressure would be closer to 125 psi. The highly non-linear flow/pressure to rpm relationship indicates that the pump is in pressure relief.

1713488662140.jpg
The oil pressure vs RPM is not linear like shown by the yellow line - that's a PD pump's ideal line with not pump slip. Most healthy PD oil pumps have pretty small pump slip, especially with thicker fluid viscosity. What actually going on is like the blue line, which is measured data. I saw the same basic behavior when I did RPM vs oil pressure measurements on my Z06 (graph below). There was a big discussion not too long ago in a thread here where it was discussed why the actual RPM vs oil pressure curve rolls over like seen in the graph above and mine below. It's because all the journal bearings naturally "self pump" oil flow through them as they rotate and that oil exits the bearing as side-leakage, and they act like mini scavenger pumps on the system, and essentially reduce the back pressure on the pump's output. If the journal bearings could self pump as much total volume as the pump is putting out, then the oil pressure seen would basically be zero (extreme example). On my Z06, with hot oil it takes around 6000 RPM to hit pump pressure relief which is set to around 75-80 PSI.

1713488113566.jpeg


Speaking of Subarus, their oiling systems are like the one in the second figure, and typical of Japanese engines. Oil pressure is rather low at idle, and rises linearly with rpm. On my Subaru, hot (120°C) oil pressure is 5.1 psi at 600 rpm, and 47 psi at >5,000 rpm, with a pressure relief setting of 102 psi.
If you could actually measure the oil pressure vs RPM, it would also roll over like in the graphs above before it hit pressure relief. No vehicle will have a linear oil pressure vs engine RPM curve because the journal bearing self pumping factor is reducing the pump's output pressure as the RPM increases.

The reduction in flow to the bearings could be quite substantial. An oil with twice the viscosity might result in around half the oil flow rate when the oil pump is in pressure relief.

This could be the reason bearing wear was increased with thicker oil in the study with the Ford V-6, and why there was no significant difference in the Toyota study, which in all likelihood used at engine that wasn't in pressure relief.
Maybe ... it could really depend on the engine's oiling system design and performance. If it's not designed well, it could cause engine longevity issues. Like mentioned before, if the oil supply pressure is always above 0 gauge at the inlets to the journal bearings, they will should be getting adequate lubrication which won't make them go up in smoke. But over the long run they may experience more long term wear due to a higher rise in the film thickness inside the bearing which reduces the MOFT. Throw in higher rod loads on top of that, and the MOFT gets even smaller. All kinds of factors going on that will ultimately determine the real time MOFT inside journal bearings.
 
Last edited:
Reductin in power, fuel economy come to mind.
Our Hyundai has the 2.0 turbo GDI engine. Known for things like bearing failure and high oil consumption. However it does have a new replacement engine.
Most if not all Hyundai engines are extremely tolerant to higher viscosity oil and higher HTHS. I see very little difference in power or fuel economy going from 5w-30 to 15w-50, I also have lower oil temps running a higher viscosity.
 
Real, on the road automotive engine tests I have presented in the past are revealing. Modern, fully formulated oils having a HTHS of 2.6 when put into service show no more wear than a 30 or 40 grade oil in engines designed for that viscosity range. Even with mild degradation from fuel dilution and shear these oils hold up well in harsh conditions. I have tested oils with HTHS ratings of 1.6 in high BHP engines (under moderate load conditions) with essentially no ill effects. Again, modern, fully formulated oils.

Older, non fully formulated oils with a HTHS below 3.0, in some studies showed the beginnings of accelerated wear. There have been no studies that I am aware that show the need for a HTHS needing to be at nor above 3.5.

Engine failures blamed on motor oils are usually, eventually, found to be related to manufacturing defects or some other catastrophic failure. Recommendations for the change to a 60 grade oil are Band-Aids as far as I can tell.

Ali
 
Real, on the road automotive engine tests I have presented in the past are revealing.

I have tested oils with HTHS ratings of 1.6 in high BHP engines (under moderate load conditions) with essentially no ill effects. Again, modern, fully formulated oils.
It takes more than one ICP spectrometry UOA on one short mileage run of a different oil to see any wear difference trends. Unless you go really low in viscosity like in your Red Line 5WT Racing Oil 0W5 oil (that 1.6 HTHS) experiment where there seemed to be indications of increased wear after only 1000 miles of mild driving.

An ICP spectrometry UOA is like looking at the world through straw - a very narrow slice of data. It takes a long history of UOA trend data to really see what's going on.
 
3.2 bars (315 kPa) is only 45.7 PSI. That's a pretty low PD oil pump pressure relief setting. All the pumps I've looked into have a pressure relief setting more like 75-80 or more PSI or more. Those Subarus have a pretty high pump pressure relief setting - around 102 PSI on some I've seen. The above example isn't a common thing from what I've seen - what year was that Ford in-line 6 cylinder? Having a pump pressure relief that low seems odd, especially when it shows that engine having around 65 PSI of oil pressure with 100C oil at 5500 RPM. Did you add the relief valve pressure of 315 kPa annotation on that graph?
It's an engine from a ~2012 Australian Ford Falcon. The study is titled Fuel conservation and emission reduction through novel waste heat recovery for internal combustion engines.

I added the annotation for the relief pressure setting. It was taken from this chart provided in the same study showing the relief characteristics at 2,000 rpm. If you look at the oil pressure at 2k rpm from the the previous chart I posted, and compare the pressure at 100°C and 60°C, the oil with ~3 times the viscosity has ~1/3 the flow rate.

Oil Pressure-Flow 2000rpm.jpg


The bypass design allows the oil pump to produce pressure a lot higher than the nominal relief setting. At higher rpm, maximum pressures can approach twice the relief setting. This seems to be typical for a PD pump pressure relief. Here's a more detailed chart from another study that shows the bypass characteristics at higher engine speeds. The chart on the right is for a conventional oil pump.

Oil Pump Pressure Relief Curves.jpg


On my Z06, with hot oil it takes around 6000 RPM to hit pump pressure relief which is set to around 75-80 PSI.
That pressure curve looks an awfully lot like the one with the low relief valve setting. Are you sure the relief valve on that engine has an initial opening pressure of 75-80 psi? Is that based on manufacturing spec or physical measurements?

If 75-80 psi is just the maximum pressure observed at high rpm with cold oil, then the initial opening pressure would be more like 40-45 psi, if the pressure relief performs similarly to the conventional oil pump in Fig. 10 above. My Subaru has a 102 psi pressure relief, but can easily hit >150 psi measured at the main gallery, which would be >170 psi at the oil pump outlet.

If you could actually measure the oil pressure vs RPM, it would also roll over like in the graphs above before it hit pressure relief. No vehicle will have a linear oil pressure vs engine RPM curve because the journal bearing self pumping factor is reducing the pump's output pressure as the RPM increases.
It won't be 100% linear, but I don't think it would be highly non-linear as it is in the chart from your Z06 either.

It could be that pressure drop across bearings doesn't rise as quickly with rpm, and if an engine has piston squirters they may only flow at high rpm, but pressure drop across other components can behave in the opposite way, with pressure rising quadratically with flow rate (oil filters as just one example). Oil temperature and viscosity both affect how turbulent the flow is as well, which can make dP-flow curves more or less linear. It's all a bit complicated to model, and maybe some engines do naturally have very different curves, but I still think the simplest explanation is that the pump is in pressure relief.

Here are the specs for main gallery pressure at 80°C for my Subaru:
700 rpm: 9.5 psi, or 13.6 psi / 1000 rpm
3,000 rpm: 47 psi, or 15.7 psi / 1000 rpm

The pressure-rpm curve is close enough to a straight line that intersects near zero, at least until above 5,000 rpm when pump slip becomes significant and the flow rate starts to level off. If anything, pressure rises a bit faster than rpm.
 
Coming from a country where thick oil was the norm. I used Penrite HPR 30 (20W-60, A3/B3) in everything I had for over a decade. With the occasional use of GTX 20W-50 when I was short of cash, and Castrol Edge 10W-60 synthetic when I was feeling rich.

Nothing bad happened to any engine I owned, but I probably wasted a bit more fuel than I needed to. After joining BITOG I relaxed into a more reasonable 15W-40 mineral or 0/5W-40 synthetic. Now days I commonly use a sensible 5W-30.

The Penrite HPR 30 (20W-60) had a HTHS of 6.2 cP and a zinc level of 1580 ppm. I had no issues and would still use it today without concern. But I don’t buy it anymore, synthetic 5W30 is now my preferred option.

You would have to go to silly high HTHS levels to strangle any reasonable engine.

Living in a warm climate, I could safely cold start with 20W-50 all year. Cold starting is probably the real issue for most people going thick in a cold climate. Easily solved with modern synthetic oil.

High HTHS, often not worth it, but never really a problem either.
 
Coming from a country where thick oil was the norm. I used Penrite HPR 30 (20W-60, A3/B3) in everything I had for over a decade. With the occasional use of GTX 20W-50 when I was short of cash, and Castrol Edge 10W-60 synthetic when I was feeling rich.

Nothing bad happened to any engine I owned, but I probably wasted a bit more fuel than I needed to. After joining BITOG I relaxed into a more reasonable 15W-40 mineral or 0/5W-40 synthetic. Now days I commonly use a sensible 5W-30.

The Penrite HPR 30 (20W-60) had a HTHS of 6.2 cP and a zinc level of 1580 ppm. I had no issues and would still use it today without concern. But I don’t buy it anymore, synthetic 5W30 is now my preferred option.

You would have to go to silly high HTHS levels to strangle any reasonable engine.

Living in a warm climate, I could safely cold start with 20W-50 all year. Cold starting is probably the real issue for most people going thick in a cold climate. Easily solved with modern synthetic oil.

High HTHS, often not worth it, but never really a problem either.
Australia? They use penrite down there
 
It will be different for every engine, but generally much hotter than 220°F. For the engine in the study I posted, bearing wear only started increasing with a sump temperature of 150°C (300°F), with oil thinner than an xW-20. In another study, piston ring wear doubled with oil grades thinner than xW-20 at a sump temperature of 130°C, but cam and bearing wear did not increase at all at this temperature.

There are some scenarios not taken into account in these studies. Problems with an engine's oiling system, like a clogged oil filter or oil passages, or excessive oil aeration, will reduce oil pressure and might lead to catastrophic bearing wear even if oil temperatures aren't so extreme.

A thicker grade of oil just might be enough to save the bearings or at least prolong the inevitable in those scenarios. So, it's important to have some safety margin, but with oil temperatures <110°C there should generally be a healthy safety margin with the recommended grade.


The oil at certain engine components will be hotter than the sump temperature, but this is taken into account in these studies. Sump temperature is just used as a reference because it's easier to measure.
Generally, all engines today have sump temperatures above 110c. The question is what is expectation by manufacturer how long their engines will last in average use. Most appliance vehicles will have sump temperatures above 110c. It helps with mpg, retains temperature longer (some engines) etc. Many engines have now ECU controlled temperature to improve mpg.
 
My experience is that the sump temperatures in my high powered cars and trucks is much lower. My highest power car, with 800 BHP runs at 80c around town with spirited use, less at 80 MPH on the highway. Maybe it is because I always run thinner engine oils that have less internal friction.

Ali
 
My experience is that the sump temperatures in my high powered cars and trucks is much lower. My highest power car, with 800 BHP runs at 80c around town with spirited use, less at 80 MPH on the highway. Maybe it is because I always run thinner engine oils that have less internal friction.

Ali
No, it’s because high performance cars have decent oil cooling.
 
It's an engine from a ~2012 Australian Ford Falcon. The study is titled Fuel conservation and emission reduction through novel waste heat recovery for internal combustion engines.

I added the annotation for the relief pressure setting. It was taken from this chart provided in the same study showing the relief characteristics at 2,000 rpm. If you look at the oil pressure at 2k rpm from the the previous chart I posted, and compare the pressure at 100°C and 60°C, the oil with ~3 times the viscosity has ~1/3 the flow rate.

1713648896923.jpeg
If the pump pressure vs engine RPM in Fig 9 (below) is for that engine, then how did they obtain oil pressure data for engine RPM above the relief pressure of 315 kPa (45.7 PSI)? Was that data obtained on an actual running engine with instrumentation? If the pump relief valve was actually starting to open at 45.7 PSI, those oil pressure curves would not be shaped like that above 45.7 PSI line. They would be rolling over very noticeably, but they are essentially remaining near linear. Fig 1 says "typical oil pump flow", so what oil pump is that based on? Any PD pump should not be bypassing any oil until the pressure relief valve starts cracking open. So the pump in Fig 1 obviously has a low relief setting, a lot lower than any engine pump relief pressure specs I've seen.

1713639165719.jpeg


The bypass design allows the oil pump to produce pressure a lot higher than the nominal relief setting. At higher rpm, maximum pressures can approach twice the relief setting. This seems to be typical for a PD pump pressure relief. Here's a more detailed chart from another study that shows the bypass characteristics at higher engine speeds. The chart on the right is for a conventional oil pump.

1713649084983.jpeg
The "Focal point 1" zone for the Conventional oil pump clearly shows the pump is in pressure relief. The linear slope down portion of the pressure vs flow rate curves is showing the pump slip (ie, pump efficiency) vs output pressure.

"The bypass design allows the oil pump to produce pressure a lot higher than the nominal relief setting."
This can happen if the flow path for the oil that bypasses the pump when in pressure relief is undersized/restrictive. Even though the PRV opens, the pump output flow can still increase with increased RPM, but there will be a pretty noticable curve inflection (like seen in Fig 10) starting at the point the PRV starts to open. No oil pump will have a perfect pressure control cut-off once the PRV starts opening, but some pumps will control max pressure output better than others.

"At higher rpm, maximum pressures can approach twice the relief setting. This seems to be typical for a PD pump pressure relief."
Not sure how this could happen, because when the releif valve starts operaing, the pump output pressure is going to start rolling over pretty good if the relief valve is designed correctly. Only way I could see this happening is if the PRV was set real low on a high ouput pump, and the PRV was pretty flow restrictive.

That pressure curve looks an awfully lot like the one with the low relief valve setting. Are you sure the relief valve on that engine has an initial opening pressure of 75-80 psi? Is that based on manufacturing spec or physical measurements?
Per Melling, the OEM releif spring on the oil pump is set for 70 PSI - had to dig into my notes to verify. The pump should not be bypassing any oil flow before the PRV starts cracking open (assuming the closed valve isn't leaking). On a side note, if the PRV was leaking slighty, it would be hard to distigish that from pump slip as the pump outpur pressure increased.

Keep in mind that the pump output pressure before the filter is also effected by the filter dP. The oil pressure sensor is located between the filter and main engine feed gallery. The oil filter used is referenced in the title of the Z06 graph, and under those test conditons (200F, 5W-30 oil), the filter dP at high RPM was around 2-3 PSI (per Purolator test data). The LS pump puts out ~6 GPM at 5000 RPM. Not a super high output pump.

If 75-80 psi is just the maximum pressure observed at high rpm with cold oil, then the initial opening pressure would be more like 40-45 psi, if the pressure relief performs similarly to the conventional oil pump in Fig. 10 above. My Subaru has a 102 psi pressure relief, but can easily hit >150 psi measured at the main gallery, which would be >170 psi at the oil pump outlet.
My RPM vs OP data was with 5W-30 at 200F (around 11.5 cSt). The oil pump PRV is not set to 40-45 PSI (it would be obvious in the data if it was), so no oil would be bypassing the pump below a pump output pressure of 70 PSI. Sure, if the oil was cold the pump would hit pressure relief at a much lower RPM. Fig 10 doesn't say what oil viscoity was used, and doesn't show any info for changing oil temp/viscosity on the curves, it just showing curves for whatever viscosity they used to generate that data.

It won't be 100% linear, but I don't think it would be highly non-linear as it is in the chart from your Z06 either.
The Z06 graph is not linear for two reasons as the RPM increases: 1) Some slight pump slip, and 2) pump output pressure decrease due to increased journal bearing "self-pumping" and the associated bearing side leakage. The increased bearing self-pumping acts like a scavaging pump on the pump supply, which will decrease the oil pressure supply. Most people are not aware of this phenomina unless they really understand how journal bearing operate. Oil flow through journal bearings is effected by many factors.

Here's basically how the oil pressure vs RPM would look on a running engine, based on different factors. This is a generic model I did (not for my Z06) to simply show what the curves would look like based on different operating conditions. If a pump was supplying flow to a fixed resistance, the curve will look like the red and orange lines. If the pump is supplying oil to a running engine with journal bearings, the curves will look like the green and blue lines. If the pump slip factor is included, it just moves the same curve shape down on the graph - the more pump slip the mover the curve moves down. Pump slip in this model was assumed pretty extreme (goes from 5% slip at 1 GPM to 20% slip at 15 GPM) to see it's effect. IMO, pump slip in a a healthy automotive PD pump isn't going to chage that much as its output pressure increases. A pretty worn out oil pump might have slip that bad. The green and blue lines are essentally the same overall shape as my Z06 graph.

1713644526343.jpeg


It could be that pressure drop across bearings doesn't rise as quickly with rpm, and if an engine has piston squirters they may only flow at high rpm, but pressure drop across other components can behave in the opposite way, with pressure rising quadratically with flow rate (oil filters as just one example). Oil temperature and viscosity both affect how turbulent the flow is as well, which can make dP-flow curves more or less linear. It's all a bit complicated to model, and maybe some engines do naturally have very different curves, but I still think the simplest explanation is that the pump is in pressure relief.
Yes, it's a bit complicated, and agree that every engine will have it's own specific RPM vs OP characteristics. All engines also have journal bearings, which effect the RPM vs OP curve. The Z06 does not have piston oil squirters, so that's out of the equation. Piston sqirters are essentiall an orifice, and they flow any time the engine is running. Some "fancy" ones have a check valve in them to close off flow below a certain oil pressure level, like 25 PSI so they don't operate at low RPM. The flow vs P curve for oil squirters would basically be like the orange line in the graph above. Anything that basically acts like an orifice will have a flow vs pressure curve in that shape. A pressure fed oiling system basically acts like a "modified" orifice type of restriction, except when it's rotating and the jorunal bearings are self-pumping. When the self-pumping journal bearings are added to the system, it causes the pump supply pressure to roll over like the blue line in the graph above. So the roll-over is a combination of factors, mainly the pump slip + the journal bearing side leakage.

Here are the specs for main gallery pressure at 80°C for my Subaru:
700 rpm: 9.5 psi, or 13.6 psi / 1000 rpm
3,000 rpm: 47 psi, or 15.7 psi / 1000 rpm

The pressure-rpm curve is close enough to a straight line that intersects near zero, at least until above 5,000 rpm when pump slip becomes significant and the flow rate starts to level off. If anything, pressure rises a bit faster than rpm.
As mentioned in other threads discussing the Subaru high volume oil pumps, are the specificatiions for the pump in the service manual based on a pump on bench in a lab, or is it actual data obtained from the pump on the engine? A PD oil pump will not show the same RPM vs output pressure when connected to a fixed output resistance (like in a lab bench test) vs on a running engine because of the journal bearing self-pumping effect.
 
Last edited:
My experience is that the sump temperatures in my high powered cars and trucks is much lower. My highest power car, with 800 BHP runs at 80c around town with spirited use, less at 80 MPH on the highway. Maybe it is because I always run thinner engine oils that have less internal friction.

Ali
It's becaue they have lots of oil cooling desined in to the oiling system becasue the manufacturer is designing for possible heavy use (track, towing, etc) by owners. Last thing they want is someone smoking an engine if they decide to push the car to the limits it's designed to. Do some track action, and you would see a much higher oil temperature.
 
Last edited:
If the pump pressure vs engine RPM in Fig 9 (below) is for that engine, then how did they obtain oil pressure data for engine RPM above the relief pressure of 315 kPa (45.7 PSI)? Was that data obtained on an actual running engine with instrumentation? If the pump relief valve was actually starting to open at 45.7 PSI, those oil pressure curves would not be shaped like that above 45.7 PSI line. They would be rolling over very noticeably, but they are essentially remaining near linear. Fig 1 says "typical oil pump flow", so what oil pump is that based on? Any PD pump should not be bypassing any oil until the pressure relief valve starts cracking open. So the pump in Fig 1 obviously has a low relief setting, a lot lower than any engine pump relief pressure specs I've seen.
The data points were taken from the engine running in neutral. The pressure sensor was downstream of the oil pump, after the oil filter. The 315 kPA / 46 psi value for the relief pressure is not the actual pressure relief valve opening pressure, but the gallery pressure at which the relief starts to open. The pressure at the relief valve in oil pump will be higher. The actual relief valve opening pressure may be over 60 psi.

It's not made clear if Fig. 1 is from data from the same engine, but it's consistent with Fig. 9. The authors imply elsewhere that the PRV opens at ~46 psi gallery pressure:

"The pressure curves at 100 C and 120 C initially show a steep increase of pressure but after 1500 RPM the curve flattens out and the slope of the pressure increase over engine speed is reduced by over 50% due to the opening of the pressure relieve valve. At temperatures below 60 C this significant reduction of the slope is missing because the pressure relieve valve is already open at 1000 RPM."

"At higher rpm, maximum pressures can approach twice the relief setting. This seems to be typical for a PD pump pressure relief."
Not sure how this could happen, because when the releif valve starts operaing, the pump output pressure is going to start rolling over pretty good if the relief valve is designed correctly. Only way I could see this happening is if the PRV was set real low on a high ouput pump, and the PRV was pretty flow restrictive.
It seems typical for PD pumps with single stage pressure relief. I’ve seen three different studies that show this, and it’s also the case with my Subaru. It's due to the fixed restriction of the relief flow path, as well as the difference between initial opening pressure of the valve and the fully-open pressure.

I wouldn't say it's an incorrect design. Pumps with dual stage pressure relief or variable displacement just do a better job at limiting pressure, the benefits being reduced power loss, improved fuel efficiency, and less stress on certain engine components like oil filters and oil sensor gaskets.

The green and blue lines are essentally the same overall shape as my Z06 graph.
The curves are actually quite different. Here's what your Z06 graph looks like superimposed on your model, assuming that flow rate should be directly proportional to engine speed. I matched it to the green line at high rpm and scaled the pressure numbers down accordingly to make it easier to compare the shapes of the curves. Your oil pressure at idle is 7.5 times higher than the model. Either there is a huge amount of pump slip, or the total restriction in the system drops dramatically as engine speed increases. A relief valve can reduce restriction this much. I'm not sure any of the factors you mentioned could reduce restriction this much as rpm increases.

1354984.jpg


From Fig. 10 we can plot pressure-rpm curves to see what they look like as the pump goes into pressure relief. I've done this for two different operating conditions.

Oil Pump Pressure Relief Curves 2.jpg


Here is the red curve plotted as pressure vs rpm. It's similar to the curves in the Australian study. It's also similar to the curve from your Z06, but in that case we don't see an inflection point. This could be because at idle the relief valve has already started opening at idle, or that it has nearly started opening and there aren't enough data points to see the inflection. The curves are straight since we're ignoring the effect of engine restriction changing with speed.

Oil Pump Pressure Relief Curves 2a.jpg


With the blue curve (warmer oil), we see much lower idle oil pressures, and an inflection point at higher rpm. If the pump in your Z06 is not actually in pressure relief in your chart, you should be able to replicate a curve like the one below taking oil pressure measurements when the oil is colder. If you still don't see an inflection point, it's likely because the pump was in pressure relief even with the warmer oil, as is the case for the engine in the Australian study.

In fact, even in your test at 200°F, you might expect to start seeing an inflection point by 4,000 rpm if the relief valve were designed to start opening at 70 psi, since 62 psi at the sensor would typically mean >70 psi at the oil pump.

Oil Pump Pressure Relief Curves 2b.jpg


As mentioned in other threads discussing the Subaru high volume oil pumps, are the specificatiions for the pump in the service manual based on a pump on bench in a lab, or is it actual data obtained from the pump on the engine? A PD oil pump will not show the same RPM vs output pressure when connected to a fixed output resistance (like in a lab bench test) vs on a running engine because of the journal bearing self-pumping effect.
Those figures are for a running engine. Here's a better chart showing typical pressures on a naturally aspirated Subaru FA20 with 10W-40 oil at 90°C.

The shape of the curve isn't too far off from your model, with oil pressure being directly proportional to engine speed from 2,000 to 4,000 rpm. The curve starts to flatten out at at low rpm/flow like it does in your model as well, it just isn't immediately obvious due to the improper scaling on the x-axis at 800 rpm.

There could be a small amount of pressure relief going on at 5k+ rpm, but it's hard to say. The pump relief is rated 5.85 psi, but the pressure drop between the oil pump and the main crank gallery where this sensor was located is at least 20% on these engines.

FA20 Oil Pressure vs RPM.jpg
 
1713816814426.jpg

It seems typical for PD pumps with single stage pressure relief. I’ve seen three different studies that show this, and it’s also the case with my Subaru. It's due to the fixed restriction of the relief flow path, as well as the difference between initial opening pressure of the valve and the fully-open pressure.

I wouldn't say it's an incorrect design. Pumps with dual stage pressure relief or variable displacement just do a better job at limiting pressure, the benefits being reduced power loss, improved fuel efficiency, and less stress on certain engine components like oil filters and oil sensor gaskets.
The flow restriction in a running engine isn't fixed, as I explained about how journal bearings work and act like mini savaging pumps on the pressurized oil supply from the pump. That's why the RPM vs OP curve rolls over as RPM keeps increasing. If the oiling system really was a fixed flow restriction, the RPM vs OP curve would be shaped similar to the orange or red line in my model graph. The pump slip factor simply will lower the curve on the graph the more slip there is in the pump.

The curves are actually quite different. Here's what your Z06 graph looks like superimposed on your model, assuming that flow rate should be directly proportional to engine speed. I matched it to the green line at high rpm and scaled the pressure numbers down accordingly to make it easier to compare the shapes of the curves. Your oil pressure at idle is 7.5 times higher than the model. Either there is a huge amount of pump slip, or the total restriction in the system drops dramatically as engine speed increases. A relief valve can reduce restriction this much. I'm not sure any of the factors you mentioned could reduce restriction this much as rpm increases.

1713817516720.jpeg
I said that graph was not a model of the Z06 oiling system - it was a model to show how the RPM/flow vs P curves would look based on the 4 different operating conditions. So there is no direct comparison between that graph and the Z06 actual measured data graph except for the basic curve shape or the blue and green lines compared to the Z06 curve. It was simply a model created with the dP vs flow tool to show how a fixed resistance vs a variable resistance (ie, journal bearing self pumping factor) would cause the flow vs pressure curves be shaped. If the system is a true fixed flow resistance, the orange and red curves result (with and without pump slip). If the systems resistance decreases as RPM increases, which is what self pumping journal bearings will cause, then the curves will roll over at higher RPM like the blue and green curves show (with and without pump slip).

One thing to keep in minds, is even if the pump's flow rate was directly proportional to engine/pump speed (meaning zero pump slip), the RPM vs OP curve through a fixed resistance will not be a straight line where OP is directly proportional to engine RPM/pump flow volume. Plot RPM/flow volume vs pump flow output, then plot that same flow volume output vs dP through a fixed resistance that that acts like an orifice than an open straight pipe. An engine oiling system is a bunch of galleries with a lot of orifices on the outlets of those galleries. A non-rotating journal bearing with tight clearance is going to act like an orifice for the pump to forced oil flow through it. The oil pressure in an engine is primary caused by all the tight clearance journal bearings. Rotating journal bearings scavenge flow through their side leakage on the pump supply pressure, and therefore decrease the oil pressure as RPM increases. The higher the total side leakage flow from the journal bearings, the more it lowers the supply pressure from the pump ... like mini scavenging pumps on the oil supply.

From Fig. 10 we can plot pressure-rpm curves to see what they look like as the pump goes into pressure relief. I've done this for two different operating conditions.

1713819407299.jpeg


Here is the red curve plotted as pressure vs rpm. It's similar to the curves in the Australian study. It's also similar to the curve from your Z06, but in that case we don't see an inflection point. This could be because at idle the relief valve has already started opening at idle, or that it has nearly started opening and there aren't enough data points to see the inflection. The curves are straight since we're ignoring the effect of engine restriction changing with speed.

1713819422108.jpeg


With the blue curve (warmer oil), we see much lower idle oil pressures, and an inflection point at higher rpm. If the pump in your Z06 is not actually in pressure relief in your chart, you should be able to replicate a curve like the one below taking oil pressure measurements when the oil is colder. If you still don't see an inflection point, it's likely because the pump was in pressure relief even with the warmer oil, as is the case for the engine in the Australian study.

In fact, even in your test at 200°F, you might expect to start seeing an inflection point by 4,000 rpm if the relief valve were designed to start opening at 70 psi, since 62 psi at the sensor would typically mean >70 psi at the oil pump.

1713819436401.jpeg
Both of those plotted curves (for both cold and hot oil) show distinct curve inflections where the pump in pressure relief. As soon as a date point in Fig 10 goes into the gray zone, the pump is in pressure relief. My Z06 RPM vs OP curve has no such inflection point, therefore the pump PRV can't be opened. Maybe it leaks slightly, but it certainly wasn't even cracking open because that would have caused a curve inflection, not a smooth roll-over.

There isn't an 8 PSI dP between the pump and OP sensor on my Z06 because I relocated to OP sensor in a block located right after the filter. So what I was seeing is essentially the OP right at the filter outlet. And the distance between the pump and filter is small and a big main gallery. Per the Purolator test data, that filter only had 2-3 PSI of dP at 6.5 GPM with 11.5 cSt viscosity, and the Z06 pump only puts out ~6.5 GPM at 5000 RPM. So the Z06 curve might at the most have 2-3 PSI difference due to the location of the OP sensor.

Those figures are for a running engine. Here's a better chart showing typical pressures on a naturally aspirated Subaru FA20 with 10W-40 oil at 90°C.

The shape of the curve isn't too far off from your model, with oil pressure being directly proportional to engine speed from 2,000 to 4,000 rpm. The curve starts to flatten out at at low rpm/flow like it does in your model as well, it just isn't immediately obvious due to the improper scaling on the x-axis at 800 rpm.

There could be a small amount of pressure relief going on at 5k+ rpm, but it's hard to say. The pump relief is rated 5.85 psi, but the pressure drop between the oil pump and the main crank gallery where this sensor was located is at least 20% on these engines.

1713821415862.jpeg

Yes, it looks very similar - and it should if that is data from an actual running engine. It rolls over and starts loosing increased pressure above ~5500 RPM which could be an indication the pump's PRV is starting to open. That would also indicate a well operating and free flowing PRV. If the PRV didn't start opening, the curve would roll over and may still show slightly increasing pressure (depending on the journal bearing effect) from still increasing flow until the PRV valve starts opening.

On my Z06 running engine data, and also on my model graph of the flow vs P curves through a fixed resistance and also variable resistance, the OP stays pretty liner vs RPM until the RPM and flow increases, and the journal bearing side leakage factor starts showing up due to higher RPM - and then the curve starts rolling over way before the pump PRV valve should open. If the flow resistance stayed constant (without journal bearings in play), the curve would roll upward as RPM/flow increased as shown in my model graph. If you do a model for a system with a slightly decreasing flow resistance as flow increases then you will see that effect. If you ignore the effect of the rotating journal bearings self pumping side leakage (scavenging effect) on the oil supply pressure, then you can't see the whole story. The journal bearings have a definite effect on the engine RPM vs OP pressure curve shape and the way the curve rolls over at higher RPM.

On a side note I forgot to comment on in post 51, you said:

"Here are the specs for main gallery pressure at 80°C for my Subaru:
700 rpm: 9.5 psi, or 13.6 psi / 1000 rpm
3,000 rpm: 47 psi, or 15.7 psi / 1000 rpm

The pressure-rpm curve is close enough to a straight line that intersects near zero, at least until above 5,000 rpm when pump slip becomes significant and the flow rate starts to level off. If anything, pressure rises a bit faster than rpm."


But if you look at the Z06 RPM vs OP graph, the curve can't be anywhere near a straight line and go through close to zero P at zero RPM. Same with Fig 9 in post 46. That's why I left that 0 to 500 RPM segment out of the x-axis. The pump flow vs P between zero RPM at idle isn't on the same trend as it is above idle. If I would have included the 0 to 500 RPM section of the x-axis, there's no way that curve could intersect zero without changing course way beyond it's current trendline path towards zero.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top