BWM final drive gear oil 'SAF-xx' standard?

[pgtr]

THings seem a tad confusing in BMW land w/ respect to gear lubricants (the owners manual for a '97 3 series E36 only lists "ATF" for the 5 speed and "HD Gear Oil" for the differential).

I've dug up some BMW references to (rear end) gear oils being: 'MIL-L-2105 C', 'ZF TE-ML 05' or (BWM)SAF-XLS.

It's a shame they can't simply give a simple API designation for the differential along w/ viscosity which seems to work just fine for most automakers.

The Mil spec is pretty old and I think it was largely repalced by GL-5 on passenger cars back in the 60s.

The other two specs they reference ... dunno?

- I believe the 'SAF' standard is BMW's own.

The dealer mentioned on the phone 75W140 synthetic but I don't always give much credence to them.

The BMW boards seem to like synthetic GL5s in 75W90 and consider 140 to be a 'truck' gear oil.

Before I dump some 75W90 GL-5 in, if anybody has any insignts - like to hear them!

thanks,

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
the BMW gear lubricants "issue" is wrapped up in protective trade pratices

I have a BMW Z3 2.8 manual and wanted to change both gearbox and diff oils. I have dealt with Castrol for over three decades - twenty year as an account customer - and when ordering their recommended SAF-XO they said "...they could not supply me the BMW SAF-XO oil for the diff. as it is a supply only to BMW Dealer product..."
I then went to a Castrol Distributor who confirmed the fact that they coiuld not order that product direct from Castrol
I had to purchase it from a BMW Dealer at a totally ridiculous price!!

I use Castrol's synthetic ATF "Transmax Z" in the manual gearbox

Castrol were selling three synthetic "SAF" products here;

SAF-XA - for LS diffs ( Ford, GM-Holden, others and for competition use )

SAF-XJ - for BMW LS diffs and "...for use in 4WD vehicles with LS diffs. suffering shuddering and noise problems..."

SAF-XO - for BMW's "normal" diifs, "...MAN busses and for ZF axles in heavy trucks. SAE 75w-90..."

After the BP-Castrol "unhappy marriage" I don't know if they are still being marketed

The SAF-XO I put in my Z3 was certainly of 75w-90 viscosity!

Regards

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
the BMW gear lubricants "issue" is wrapped up in protective trade pratices

I have a BMW Z3 2.8 manual and wanted to change both gearbox and diff oils. I have dealt with Castrol for over three decades - twenty year as an account customer - and when ordering their recommended SAF-XO they said "...they could not supply me the BMW SAF-XO oil for the diff. as it is a supply only to BMW Dealer product..."
I then went to a Castrol Distributor who confirmed the fact that they coiuld not order that product direct from Castrol
I had to purchase it from a BMW Dealer at a totally ridiculous price!!

I use Castrol's synthetic ATF "Transmax Z" in the manual gearbox

Castrol were selling three synthetic "SAF" products here;

SAF-XA - for LS diffs ( Ford, GM-Holden, others and for competition use )

SAF-XJ - for BMW LS diffs and "...for use in 4WD vehicles with LS diffs. suffering shuddering and noise problems..."

SAF-XO - for BMW's "normal" diifs, "...MAN busses and for ZF axles in heavy trucks. SAE 75w-90..."

After the BP-Castrol "unhappy marriage" I don't know if they are still being marketed

The SAF-XO I put in my Z3 was certainly of 75w-90 viscosity!

Regards

 

[1maniac]

The "SAF-" refers to Castrol Europe products. You can go to their web site (Castrol Europe) and look up the products. BMW issued a TSB in the 1990's I believe that reccomends either using a Synthetic 75w90 or 75w-140 in all final drives from a certain year on. I don't remember what the year was I believe 1993 an on. The SAF-XO is Synthetic 75w90 and the XJ is synthetic 75w140. They were made specifically for BMW by Castrol and just like BMW is tight lipped about this just like they are about everything else. I was using Mobil-1 synthetic 75w90 and will do a UOA after I run the Amsoil Series 2000 75140 that's in mine now.

 

[pgtr]

Interesting info! Thanks!

I want to say our '97 328 does NOT have a limited slip - I want to say it's traction control system replaces this (unfortuantely) w/ controlled braking action at the slipping rear wheel. Next time I have the car jacked up I'll verify but I'm about 99% sure. If so the limited slip aspect is negated as it has a traditional open axle arrangement.

BUt I still wonder about 75W90 vs 75W140.

Why would they put a 140 in an application like this?

I suppose I could put a 75W90 in and switch to a 75W140 if I hear any gear noise after the change.

thanks,

 

[Dr. T]

1maniac is correct...the Castrol SAF-XO is for non-limited applications as is in your 330 and it is a 75w-90...the SAF-XJ is for limited slip applications as in the M3,M5,Z8 and is a 75w-140.

The SAF-XLS was required before for M5 Limited-Slip and for Z3 applications, but has been replaced with XJ...which is also required now in the Z4's.

 

[pgtr]

Thanks also Dr T!

I appreciate the info. Far more than it seems I'll ever pry out of BMW USA.

It's amazing how BMW manages to baffle this issue.

1) Owners manual: "HD Gear Oil"
2) Dealership(s): "75W-90" _OR_ "75W-140" depending on WHO you talk to, time of day or whatever...
3) BMW of North America: "Contact your authorized BMW center"

Anybody read the book, 'Catch-22'?

It's actually a 328 but it should be the same as the 330. It has 'ASC' or some such alpha name or other for it's traction control system that was around in the 90s. I believe there is NO limited slip differential but an open axle and traction control supplied via individual braking control at each rear wheel. Next time I have it jacked up I'll make a 100% verification that it is not a limited slip. But until then, if's it's not LSD (only the M3 is LSD I think?) it gets 90. If it's LSD it gets 140. (I wonder why such a heavy fluid for LSD?).

 

[Jimbo]

A theory on why 140 for the LSD unit: It may be a Torsen? gear type instead of the more common friction cluch type. 90 may be too thin at high temperatures for the gear type to operate properly.

 

[pgtr]

Though I've never seen 'Torsen' mentioned in BMW literature that I can recall offhand I halfway wondered the same thing myself.

Don't some Mazdas run Torsens? If so I don't recall what weights they sue but I want to say hey are still 90.

thanks,

 

[Bluestream]

I have a 1991 BMW 735iL with a LSD. It has started to make a groaning noise is tight turns, which I believe is because the LSD additive has been depleted after 13 years and 50,000 KM. I have checked every BMW site to try and find what weight oil to put in. From what I have found Castrol synthetic SAF-XJ 75W140 is what is recommended for a Limited slip differential. I don't know if this is for a 1991, or only for later models. There are plenty of people using 75W90 also. Ford is also specing 75W140 Synthetic for their LSD's My BMW dealer does not sell this product in the parts dept., and only has it in 55 liter drums at $30 per liter. They would only sell me some if they could install it. If fact they did not know what viscosity it is, or they would not tell me. My owner’s manual says to use ”Name Brand Gear Oil” whatever that means. Does anyone know what weight of gear oil I should be using? I would like to just buy some Redline, or Ford Synthetic, as I don’t think BMW has been very helpful.

 

[pgtr]

"Name brand gear oil"!!!

Now that's even better than our BMW book! I love it!

As to your question sorry can't help specifically. There are several excellent posts in this thread you may want to re-read carefully for possible guidance.

 

[FowVay]

Bluestream, you are correct that your car specifies the use of a 75W-140, GL-5 lubricant for the limited slip differential. Your car calls for 1.9 liters so you should be fine with 2 quarts. Find out if the oil that is sold through the Ford dealer is additized with a limited slip additive and if it is then you should do OK with it. This is a fairly common product specified throughout the world so you may try a few other dealerships such as Mitsubishi, Toyota, Nissan, and even Chrysler. I am not certain about the drive axle manufacturer for your BMW but ZF AG was the most dominant way back when. ZF specifications may be found on some gear oil bottles so look for one of these: TE-ML 12 or ZFN 13016. I have a list of approved suppliers to ZF but unfortunately very few of the products are available in the United States. If you want to expend the effort and time then you could write to the Mobil corporation and get some data from them regarding Mobil Gearlube VS 500 which was the only product from a U.S. manufacturer on ZF's list of approved fluids. Feel free to drop me a e-mail if you'd like to know the product names of the other suppliers to ZF that make the 75W-140, LSD gear oil. Maybe you can find out some info to share with us also.

Good Luck.

 

[Bluestream]

[ October 22, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Bluestream ]

 

[Dr. T]

Are you sure your 735 has a LS? From what I've seen it's only M cars that have a LS...ie. M3, M5, etc... The local dealer should be able to sell you either fluid as they should have it on hand...they don't actually have 1L containers, but can readily fill up an empty fluid washer bottle (4L) as the ETK (parts cd) will show a per L price. This is recommended over actually ordering 1L bottles which ARE available under different part #'s than the 55gal. drum. Check with parts dept....

 

[Bluestream]

Yes it definitely has the LSD. It was part of a winter options package. I also checked the tag on the differential, and it has an "S" at the beginning, and then the ratio (4:27) after. I don't think the dealer is used to having DIY types coming in and asking for gear oil. They said that they only would sell the gear oil if they did the install. They didn't even know what weight oil they were using. I am sure that they would put the same oil in any BMW that came in for service. Also, I don't really want to pay $30 a liter, when I can get Coastal Synthetic 75W140 for $5.99 US, or M1 for $7.99 US

 

[pgtr]

"I don't think the dealer is used to having DIY types coming in and asking for gear oil."

Couldn't agree more and I'd further to say this is indeed endemic to BMW itself. Nissan and Toyota and Mazda come to mind as having a LOT of DETAILED instructions on routine maintenance - not just oil changes but transmission as well as stuff like how to drain water from the engine block etc. Case in point for BWM is the gyrations I have to go thru to reset the oil service light on our '97. Those steps I downloaded from some BMW FAQ I found on the internet put together by owners.

Other than drive it, they want you to do one thing with your car as far as maintenance goes: schedule an appointment with the nearest BMW center.

Sorry for the rant... it's just that your point pushed a pet peeve button of mine!

thanks

 

[Bluestream]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FowVay:
I am not certain about the drive axle manufacturer for your BMW but ZF AG was the most dominant way back when. Good Luck.

---

I looked at the diff for any ZF markings and there are none. I did find "BMW" cast into it, and also the date of manufacture which was 5/91. I assume the diferential was made by BMW. I am having trouble finding a 75W140 synthetic gear oil in my area, other that at dealers for very high prices. Even Redline does not make a 75W140 with the LSD additive already in. I think I may have to go with the Motorcraft 75W140 which should end up costing me about $16 a liter.

 

[Bluestream]

I thought I would check with Redline before installing the 75W140, and here is the reply I got:

"According to my guide BMW is still using a 75W90 viscosity and I
would recommend the Red Line 75W90 in your differential, it contains
a friction modifier for the limited slip."

At this point I don't think it matters what type of gear oil goes in. The 75W90 should give better fuel economy, and should also run cooler. The 75W140 must somehow be better for LSD's as many manufacturers seem to be recommending it. In Fact Ford is recommending 75W140m synthetic for any differential with a 3:73 or 4:10 gear ratio. I think I may end up using the Redline 75W90 and see if I have any problems.

 

[FowVay]

I don't know if you'll get much luck but try sending out a e-mail to this person and ask them for a reference for the lubricant:

[email protected]

Just explain what you're driving and ask if they can offer any assistance for your fluid. I have had excellent results by going directly to the manufacturer of my vehicle components as opposed to trying to deal with the dealerships. BMW has been by far the worst to offer any support to their customers here in North America.

Again, good luck with your search.

[ October 30, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: FowVay ]

 

[Dr. T]

Pgtr and Bluestream,

if you guys are looking to use the O.E. fluids, here are the part #'s to order 1L bottles of the stuff from the dealer:

SAF-XO (non-LS): 83 22 0 002 094

SAF-XJ (all LS): 83 22 1 467 993

The TSB basically states that all LS should get the XJ (replaces the XLS). Give the dealer parts dept. the about number(s) and you'll be all set.