I am becoming more and more convinced that the military was wise when they decided to use BreakFree. The stuff seems to work very well. And Blue Wonder used occasionally on gun barrels works pretty good. I pretty much have settled on these two products.
BreakFree and Blue Wonder occasionally.
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The Break Free didn't work so well in Iraq and Trashcanistan.
The powdered sand seemed to stick to the stuff like glue and caused many malfunctions of the AR type rifles.
The Army and USMC are reportedly looking around for another lube--a dryer lube from what I hear--for future use. http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000402#000017
If you're not playing around in the sandbox I agree that the CLP does do a good job--on most weapons.
Dan
The powdered sand seemed to stick to the stuff like glue and caused many malfunctions of the AR type rifles.
The Army and USMC are reportedly looking around for another lube--a dryer lube from what I hear--for future use. http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000402#000017
If you're not playing around in the sandbox I agree that the CLP does do a good job--on most weapons.
Dan
[1st reply didn't seem to take] There are a number of design goals for products. The common one that gathers a lot of attention is being 'the best of best', good examples some of the producst that we've seen mentioned in this forum. Another less noticed but appreciated one once you're all by yourself somewhere is minimizing weaknesses, which is what BreakFree seems to have done well. Military testing, any good testing actually, tries to weed out products with unacceptable weaknesses. Products that make the grade may have still have specific use or maintenance criteria that isn't appreciated by all, as per previous posts you're supposed to be using pretty much a dry weapon in desert conditions.
Here is the link I intended to send...
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/...and=viewone&op=t&id=21&rnd=373.33613388351597
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/...and=viewone&op=t&id=21&rnd=373.33613388351597
from another thread...
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:.../book1/BP%201016.doc+marines+desert+clp&hl=en
4) Hot, dry climates (Desert)
a) The weapon must have continuous cleaning to remove dirt buildup in this type of climate.
b) It may be necessary to keep the weapon free of lubrication. If any lubrication is used, it should be used very sparingly. Apply CLP sparingly on weapon, if at all. It should be applied to the internal working faces and functional parts only.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=377
Re: Weapons Lube Issued by Army May be Costing Lives in Iraq. WABC 7 News Story. (Score: 1)
by Obiwan on Thursday, November 20 @ 16:13:18 PST
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So...is MilTec sponsoring this site now????
Here is what Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane (listed as a "satisfied customer" by Militec) has to say about Militec and specifically its use in a dust environment - note that Militec hosts the report themselves.
Corrosion Protection
"4. The Militec product's ability to prevent corrosion on "gun steel" was evaluated. Test pieces were coated with lubricant and heated at 160 degrees F prior to being placed in the salt fog chamber in accordance with ASTM B117. Two different tests were conducted:
a) A bolt assembly from an M-16 rifle was disassembled and the phosphated parts, including the bolt, the bolt carrier, the cam pin, and the chrome-plated firing pin were treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet.
@5 hours: rust spots evident on firing pin
@26 hours: rust spots evident on bolt carrier
@101 hours: rust occured from about 30-50% over significant areas of test pieces
b) A bolt carrier from an M-16 rifle was stripped of its phosphate coating by grit blasting and treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet. After 17 hours the bolt carrier was severely rusted (>90% of significant area)."
Dust Environment Lubricant Test (Militec is Brand E)
"Dust tests with exposure times of one hour, three hours, six hours, seven hours and eight hours were conducted with military and commercially available lubricants applied to M16A1 rifles. CLP provided the best overall performance with one stoppage in five dust tests. VV-L-800 finished second with three stoppages in five dust tests. Other top finishers were Brand D with three stoppages in four dusts tests, Brand C with seven stoppages in five dust tests and Brand E (Militec) with eight stoppages in five dust tests. The three top finishers were liquid lubricants. Although it appeared that more dust accumulated on the exposed exterior surfaces of bolt carriers with liquid lubricants than on bolt carriers with dry film lubricants, the liquid lubricants had more success overcoming friction caused by dust intrusion.
3.1.5 CLP QPL-63460-13
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, all 90 rounds fired successfully
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/1=60
The lubricant used in this test was CLP liquid. In test sequence #1, rifle #4783144 did not have any malfunctions in the one-hour, three-hour, and six-hour tests. In test sequence #2, rifle #4813100 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but recorded one malfunction in the eight-hour test.
3.1.6 Brand E (Militec)
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=90/3=30
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/5=12
In test sequence #1, rifle #4785227 fired without any malfunctions in the one-hour test; but did have one malfunction in the three-hour test and two malfunctions in the six-hour test. In test sequence #2, rifle #5449207 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but had five malfunctions in the eight-hour test.
3.1.14 Unlubricated rifle
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, was not tested
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=30/6=5
An unlubricated rifle was placed in test sequence #2 seven-hour test as a baseline to compare to the lubricated rifles. Rifle #4831774 had six malfunctions.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:.../book1/BP%201016.doc+marines+desert+clp&hl=en
4) Hot, dry climates (Desert)
a) The weapon must have continuous cleaning to remove dirt buildup in this type of climate.
b) It may be necessary to keep the weapon free of lubrication. If any lubrication is used, it should be used very sparingly. Apply CLP sparingly on weapon, if at all. It should be applied to the internal working faces and functional parts only.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=377
Re: Weapons Lube Issued by Army May be Costing Lives in Iraq. WABC 7 News Story. (Score: 1)
by Obiwan on Thursday, November 20 @ 16:13:18 PST
(User Info | Send a Message)
So...is MilTec sponsoring this site now????
Here is what Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane (listed as a "satisfied customer" by Militec) has to say about Militec and specifically its use in a dust environment - note that Militec hosts the report themselves.
Corrosion Protection
"4. The Militec product's ability to prevent corrosion on "gun steel" was evaluated. Test pieces were coated with lubricant and heated at 160 degrees F prior to being placed in the salt fog chamber in accordance with ASTM B117. Two different tests were conducted:
a) A bolt assembly from an M-16 rifle was disassembled and the phosphated parts, including the bolt, the bolt carrier, the cam pin, and the chrome-plated firing pin were treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet.
@5 hours: rust spots evident on firing pin
@26 hours: rust spots evident on bolt carrier
@101 hours: rust occured from about 30-50% over significant areas of test pieces
b) A bolt carrier from an M-16 rifle was stripped of its phosphate coating by grit blasting and treated with Militec and placed in the salt fog cabinet. After 17 hours the bolt carrier was severely rusted (>90% of significant area)."
Dust Environment Lubricant Test (Militec is Brand E)
"Dust tests with exposure times of one hour, three hours, six hours, seven hours and eight hours were conducted with military and commercially available lubricants applied to M16A1 rifles. CLP provided the best overall performance with one stoppage in five dust tests. VV-L-800 finished second with three stoppages in five dust tests. Other top finishers were Brand D with three stoppages in four dusts tests, Brand C with seven stoppages in five dust tests and Brand E (Militec) with eight stoppages in five dust tests. The three top finishers were liquid lubricants. Although it appeared that more dust accumulated on the exposed exterior surfaces of bolt carriers with liquid lubricants than on bolt carriers with dry film lubricants, the liquid lubricants had more success overcoming friction caused by dust intrusion.
3.1.5 CLP QPL-63460-13
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, all 90 rounds fired successfully
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/1=60
The lubricant used in this test was CLP liquid. In test sequence #1, rifle #4783144 did not have any malfunctions in the one-hour, three-hour, and six-hour tests. In test sequence #2, rifle #4813100 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but recorded one malfunction in the eight-hour test.
3.1.6 Brand E (Militec)
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=90/3=30
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=60/5=12
In test sequence #1, rifle #4785227 fired without any malfunctions in the one-hour test; but did have one malfunction in the three-hour test and two malfunctions in the six-hour test. In test sequence #2, rifle #5449207 fired without any malfunctions in the seven-hour test, but had five malfunctions in the eight-hour test.
3.1.14 Unlubricated rifle
Test Sequence #1: MRBS=NA, was not tested
Test Sequence #2: MRBS=30/6=5
An unlubricated rifle was placed in test sequence #2 seven-hour test as a baseline to compare to the lubricated rifles. Rifle #4831774 had six malfunctions.
Militec fails the corrosion test MISERABLY. As does FP-10.
CLP is 2nd only to ATF for corrosion protection - and I'd gladly use either for protection.
ATF does not meet MIL-PRF-63460D because it can cause allergic reactions on some people.
I see zero point in trying to lubricate bores since the first 3 shots you make will most likely evacuate the bore of any residue/oil that you've applied... replacing it with carbon deposits and lead/copper fouling.
As for lubricating the FCG, bolt, etc... you really don't want to lubricate any of that. That's where weapons malfunctions occur in dusty conditions. Some grit gets into the extractor assembly or the firing pin and bam... failure to extract/fire or some grit gets into the chamber. I thoroughly dry all the intricate parts and apply a tiny bit of ATF to all surfaces to prevent rusting. For the bolt carrier rails on my RPK, I lightly lube it with grease. CLP works great as well.
A large number of soldiers simply squirt CLP in their M16s; enough CLP that it drips out of the rifle!!! I wonder how many of those weapon malfunctions were the result of improper training?
However, from the link that was provided - I learned something new. I did not know carbon provided lubrication in the barrel? Does that mean the deposits/fouling left in there will provide some type of lubricity? Because I never completely clean out my RPK barrel. I clean it to the point where my patches only come out slightly dirty and my rifling is ultra shiny (lands have some slight deposits tho).
CLP is 2nd only to ATF for corrosion protection - and I'd gladly use either for protection.
ATF does not meet MIL-PRF-63460D because it can cause allergic reactions on some people.
I see zero point in trying to lubricate bores since the first 3 shots you make will most likely evacuate the bore of any residue/oil that you've applied... replacing it with carbon deposits and lead/copper fouling.
As for lubricating the FCG, bolt, etc... you really don't want to lubricate any of that. That's where weapons malfunctions occur in dusty conditions. Some grit gets into the extractor assembly or the firing pin and bam... failure to extract/fire or some grit gets into the chamber. I thoroughly dry all the intricate parts and apply a tiny bit of ATF to all surfaces to prevent rusting. For the bolt carrier rails on my RPK, I lightly lube it with grease. CLP works great as well.
A large number of soldiers simply squirt CLP in their M16s; enough CLP that it drips out of the rifle!!! I wonder how many of those weapon malfunctions were the result of improper training?
However, from the link that was provided - I learned something new. I did not know carbon provided lubrication in the barrel? Does that mean the deposits/fouling left in there will provide some type of lubricity? Because I never completely clean out my RPK barrel. I clean it to the point where my patches only come out slightly dirty and my rifling is ultra shiny (lands have some slight deposits tho).
I'll second the training problem as from what I understand Army troops these days only do a 'fam' fire with the M16 in basic training, and are expected that they'll receive additional training if needed when they check into their unit. This is different from a fundamental doctrine of the Marine Corps which is that 'every Marine is a rifleman', where they spend a week practicing dry firing, 'snapping in' as it's called, a week on the range, and additional time in infantry training during boot camp. In addition one basic measure of every Marine is his yearly qualification score with his issue weapon. This doctrine has served well in difficult situations, including fast moving or fairly non-existant fron tlines.
Another issue that surfaces on a regular basis is the reliability of the M16, where weapons like the AK47 have proven to be effective with less than ideal training and maintenance. If the Army and other branches don't want to train their troops adequately perhaps they should consider purchasing a lower performance weapon that functions more reliably with less training and maintenace.
Another issue that surfaces on a regular basis is the reliability of the M16, where weapons like the AK47 have proven to be effective with less than ideal training and maintenance. If the Army and other branches don't want to train their troops adequately perhaps they should consider purchasing a lower performance weapon that functions more reliably with less training and maintenace.
1sttruck: Also, I commonly read about how soldiers saw piles of AKs in the Gulf where they jammed up. Well if you don't clean or take care of ANY rifle... it will eventually fail on you. The AK is no exception but it will probably continue to function in a situation where an M16 would normally jam.
That being said, I managed to get a .35" grouping (true grouping size, taking into account bullet diameter) at 50 yd with Wolf 122gr FMJ 7.62x39 with my VEPR K (lucky shots because Wolf is very inconsistent... the next grouping was 4"-5"). I take care of my VEPR K like I would take care of any other rifle. After a range session (whether I fired 20 rounds, 50 rounds, or 250 rounds) I would field strip it and clean it. No metal brushes here so there's no fear of wearing out the rifle from overcleaning it. I keep the gas piston polished up and the carbon gets easier and easier to clean off the piston surface. The rifle lands are somewhat gunked up with carbon but I heard from Marine shooters that the carbon can act as a "lubricant" when shooting... and that it's not mandatory to get every single bit of carbon out of the bore of a battle rifle.
The key thing is to not just spray CLP and leave it there. I use CLP in the FCG area and then wipe everything as dry as possible.
That being said, I managed to get a .35" grouping (true grouping size, taking into account bullet diameter) at 50 yd with Wolf 122gr FMJ 7.62x39 with my VEPR K (lucky shots because Wolf is very inconsistent... the next grouping was 4"-5"). I take care of my VEPR K like I would take care of any other rifle. After a range session (whether I fired 20 rounds, 50 rounds, or 250 rounds) I would field strip it and clean it. No metal brushes here so there's no fear of wearing out the rifle from overcleaning it. I keep the gas piston polished up and the carbon gets easier and easier to clean off the piston surface. The rifle lands are somewhat gunked up with carbon but I heard from Marine shooters that the carbon can act as a "lubricant" when shooting... and that it's not mandatory to get every single bit of carbon out of the bore of a battle rifle.
The key thing is to not just spray CLP and leave it there. I use CLP in the FCG area and then wipe everything as dry as possible.
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