Basic car radio amplifier questions

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Any amp will be able to get loud enough to make distortion. If you think you can add 50 plus 10 watts, you'll just hit that distortion threshold at the same power, but with a lower level on the volume knob. This would be if you use the speaker-level inputs.

Now if your head unit has line-level outs, you can use the 50 watts to power a subwoofer and keep the internal amp running the OE speakers, and get the 50+10 you think you want.

The amp will draw the power it needs to push the speakers. More noise out means more power in.
 
Originally Posted by danez_yoda

< ... EE sidebar: RMS applied to volts and amps NOT POWER. V(RMS) times I(RMS) does not equal Watts (RMS) The proper term is continuous power. For for those who can't accept that because the industry says otherwise...OK RMS it is. The industry uses RMS power as an amount of power that is easily measured over several seconds. Peak power is generally madeup for marketing claims and should have Zero impact on your buying decision on amps.... >


You might want to review your DC and AC circuit theory.

In DC circuits the heating power delivered to a resistance is Power = Idc^2 X R or = Vdc^2/R.

When discussing the equivalent heating power in AC circuits, the actual power delivered to an AC load, Power = Irms^2 X Z or = Vrms^2/Z, where Z is the impedance (equivalent AC resistance) of the load, so the I and V values have to be stated in RMS values

Let's take a Power Amp that delivers a real 80 Watts of equivalent heating power to a speaker of 8 ohms impedance Z (Z = 8 ohms).

If current Irms I through the speaker is = 3.2 Ampsrms and Vrms across the speaker = 25.1 Vrms , then AC Power = Irms X Vrms = 80 Watts.

Real AC power is often called the "Average" power because the AC waveforms are always varying in value and never constant.

There is no such thing as rms power since AC Power delivered to a load in AC circuits is Irms X Vrms = Watts, where Watts denotes the AC power delivered to a load and Watts is the unit of measurement.

Now audio Power Amp advertising has involved some trickery to make you think you are getting more power than you really are.

In some cases advertising will state PEAK power.. But peak power is not "sustained" power and Peak Power only indicates a certain amount of power delivered for a very short time in which a high frequency signal may hit a peak for a very short time, and that's where power is measured as Peak Power.

So if an audio amplifier manf. advertises 80 Watts peak power then the real power delivered to speakers is only around 55 Watts.


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Yes, peak power output is a bit of the sizzle and yet pretty relevant.

Music is transient and those music or sounds peaks are the road map the amplifier is following. They are instantaneous but to do it well, crystal clear and free of distortion, this is what separates low, mid or high end equipment. Head room is (or was) a term applied to a conservative rating on a well designed or well respected brand that outpaces it's own specs by these conservative ratings. In the days of selling and comparing a few years either side of 1980, Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Hafler, Luxman and a few other's were the brands we tested, sold, traded or ?
Sure, we looked at specs but the sound and performance wasn't summed up that way. It was in the listening environment and at many stores or specialty shops, a room or environment that could be better sounding than many homes these were sold and delivered to.
Indeed, you could see distortion rates as published for all brands or amplifiers and for many, peak power was so over-rated that you'd see specs of 5 ,8 or even 10% distortion at peak power. Other brands of audio equip tested or verified could be very forgiving. Those I mentioned and other brands were the talk of the audio purists or guru's of the days. With clean stores of dynamic headroom, this well respected equipment not only sounded better, performed better, it was also safer. It wasn't running too hot nor with higher levels of distortion, the speakers didn't have "garbage in" which is really what destroys a speaker system.

In all the years I owned and sold or traded equipment and was around some very fancy and pricy stuff, I always sided on getting good sounding efficient speakers that didn't need gobs of pricy power to make them sound nice. I always kept it simple and never turned the corner to being a 'purist' or audiophile. It had to work and be fun for me. Most audiophiles I knew were pesky, impatient, whiny and unhappy. I just think they went too far and lost the fun button.

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I think the OP thinks if he can boost power IN, it will give him more power OUT,

But amplifers amplify a SIGNAL voltage - not power

and they are usually rated to produce rated power output at +/- 2V signal.

SO, if your preamp can swing the max signal voltage required for max power - which it surely can -
then you will get full power OUT.

I would add, any amount of time spent there playing " music" usually results in blown speakers!

Reason, At a nice moderate listening level ( 85dba) on moderately efficient (sensitive) speakers at home
you are usually running about only 1/2 watt to 1 watt average, with possibly 15-20 watt short Peaks
on dynamic music.

This is why the FIRST WATT matters so much. It should be free of noise and switching distortion.

Therein my affinity for push-pull Class A operation in bipolar transistor amps, even with their poor efficiency and high power dissipation with no music playing. - They run cooler with loud music than at idle!

- Ken
 
actually its a boost converter that provides equal + and - supplies.
so +100v and - 100v
some even higher.

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
Amplifiers don't amplify the 12v power supply feeding them.
Not true. Many amps actually DO amplify the 12v power supply voltage. When using only 13.8v, an amplifier's theoretical upper output limit of what can be delivered into a 4 ohm speaker in a single channel is about 20w RMS at 1%. The 4 ohm speakers limit the amperage of what the amplifier can deliver, so any increase in an amplifier's power output above this level has to come from increasing the available voltage (OHMS law). Higher power amplifiers have a built-in switching power supply that increases (amplifies or steps-up) the 12v input voltage by several times, producing up to 100 volts in some very high power amplifiers.
 
Op here. I have a pioneer MVH-S310BT head unit and a kicker key 180.4 amplifier. I was more or less trying to get an idea of how an amplifier amplified in layman's terms. I am also trying to figure out whether I should supply the amplifier high level or low level inputs. Which input is healthier for the amplifier (helps it run cooler) and has the least amount of random noise amplified to the speakers?
 
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Originally Posted by joegreen
Op here. I have a pioneer MVH-S310BT head unit and a kicker key 180.4 amplifier. I was more or less trying to get an idea of how an amplifier amplified in layman's terms. I am also trying to figure out whether I should supply the amplifier high level or low level inputs. Which input is healthier for the amplifier (helps it run cooler) and has the least amount of random noise amplified to the speakers?


The head unit supplies audio voltage to the 4X45W power amplifier assembly. The 4X45W power amplifier takes that voltage and supplies sufficient audio current to the loud speakers to move the speaker voice coils. The speaker voice coils are connected to the speaker diaphragms.

A loudspeaker is an electroacoustic transducer or device which converts an electrical audio signal into a corresponding sound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker

Voice coils are essentially linear electric motors which take that current and move the speaker diaphragms to produce sound waves.

I did some more investigation into this amp unit and apparently they use a two-stage power supply. To me that means that the power supply uses a "charge-pump" arrangement in which the 14.4V supply is used for low level audio and then when more audio power is required, it switches to the charge pump circuit for 28V.

Please notice that your supply wiring needs to go directly to the battery. At idle with no audio, your unit requires about 13Amps.

The Input Sensitivity of the amplifier is rated at 250mV-10V (0.25Volts to 10Volts). The Head supplies 2V max output to any amp, which is a standard output voltage, and should drive the amp sufficiently.

You already have four channels from the head Unit which can supply 22W each into four different speakers. https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/mvh-s310bt/support

I hope this helps.
 
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I couldn't find my thread at first and I thought it got banned. Turns out it was moved.
 
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by joegreen
Op here. I have a pioneer MVH-S310BT head unit and a kicker key 180.4 amplifier. I was more or less trying to get an idea of how an amplifier amplified in layman's terms. I am also trying to figure out whether I should supply the amplifier high level or low level inputs. Which input is healthier for the amplifier (helps it run cooler) and has the least amount of random noise amplified to the speakers?


The head unit supplies audio voltage to the 4X45W power amplifier assembly. The 4X45W power amplifier takes that voltage and supplies sufficient audio current to the loud speakers to move the speaker voice coils. The speaker voice coils are connected to the speaker diaphragms.

A loudspeaker is an electroacoustic transducer or device which converts an electrical audio signal into a corresponding sound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker

Voice coils are essentially linear electric motors which take that current and move the speaker diaphragms to produce sound waves.

I did some more investigation into this amp unit and apparently they use a two-stage power supply. To me that means that the power supply uses a "charge-pump" arrangement in which the 14.4V supply is used for low level audio and then when more audio power is required, it switches to the charge pump circuit for 28V.

Please notice that your supply wiring needs to go directly to the battery. At idle with no audio, your unit requires about 13Amps.

The Input Sensitivity of the amplifier is rated at 250mV-10V (0.25Volts to 10Volts). The Head supplies 2V max output to any amp, which is a standard output voltage, and should drive the amp sufficiently.

You already have four channels from the head Unit which can supply 22W each into four different speakers. https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products/mvh-s310bt/support

I hope this helps.




Thanks. Which do you think it's better to hook up to the amp. High level or low level?
 
Originally Posted by joegreen
Thanks. Which do you think it's better to hook up to the amp. High level or low level?


I only saw output ports from the Pioneer that go to the front and rear amp connections..Are there additional output ports on your model?

Look at your Quick Start manual.where it says Power Amp (Sold Separately).
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
[quote=joegreen
Thanks. Which do you think it's better to hook up to the amp. High level or low level?


I only saw one set of output port from the Pioneer. Is there another output on your model?


Well as far as I know I can either use the rca out (low level) or I can use the speaker wire out (high level). I did some more research and im all set with my questions. Thanks for everyones help.
 
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I'll post 2 videos that explain the output / input options and a brief over view of features / operation.
* At the near end of the Pioneer vid, (03:23) the RCA outputs are described as 2v and can be configured as Front and Rear amp connections or Front and Sub.
The amp vid is a pretty cool demo, possibly from a Consumer Electronic Show and describes the use / options including the auto EQ mic and feature for car acoustics tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OUfcKQ4nUA

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-dK8U6tA81y5/p_206KEY1804/Kicker-KEY180-4.html

Amazing what you can do these days for a few hundred dollars. That type of set up would have been part of a $2500 car audio system 35 years ago !!
smirk2.gif
 
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For lowest noise and best audio use the connections shown in the Quick Start manual.where it says Power Amp (Sold Separately) which are the proper Head (preamp) outputs to the Power Amp.

Speaker output lines are at too high a level and will be noisier and will overload the Power Amp input circuit causing distortion.
 
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