Auto-Rx Maintenance dose

[BarkerMan]

Hello everyone. I'm going to be posting some test results for Larry. I'm retired now and I'm going to drop of the map in a couple of weeks to my cabin in Idaho. On to the test.

4 Honda Civic's were picked. One was given a maintenance dose of 4 oz's, one was give a 3 oz dose and two were given a 4 ounce dose of 5w-30 engine oil. None of the drivers knew what they were given but all were told that it was an additive the would improve their gas miles. We tracked their mileage for three tanks before the test began. I will post the numbers below but a summary of the data goes something like this. All 4 vehicles experience better mileage on the first tank of fuel. The two with the engine oil placebo quickly returned to lower mileage number in fact numbers below the three tank before test numbers. The vehicle with the 4 oz dose dropped on the second and third tanks but started to improve from tank 4 up to tank 6 and leveled off. The vehicle with the 3 ounce dose was withdrawn when Larry discovered that it had major sludge problems and it was put on a 20 ounce clean and then a rinse. In its cleaned condition the mileage and compression was up dramatically. All tanks were run to as close to 300 miles as possible to keep the testing easier and still consistent. It appears that the 4 oz does improves mileage and compression. The three oz car was discovered to be a sludger when if failed a smog test required for registration and passed after the clean and rinse.

All drivers were asked to drive carefully but no coasting or turning off the engine a lights or other hyper mileage tricks.

3 tanks before test////Start 1st tank on
#1 placebo 33.5/33.0/34.2 //35.1/34.0/33.6/33.1/32.8/33.3/34.0
#2 placebo 30.2/31.0/29.9 //31.9/31.5/30.0/30.0/29.8/30.1/30.5
#3 4 oz dose 34.2/31.2/33.9 //35.5/32.2/33.0/35.5/37.2/37.5/37.1
//37.5/36.7/37.0/
#4 3 oz dose 29.3/29.0/30.1 //30.7/26.5/27.9 -stopped

Comments on #3. After the placebo effect wore off it looks like it took Auto-Rx some time to start working but it appears that there was a useful increase in mileage over the length of the test. We tracked the mileage on #4 for a few more tanks. If we say that the starting mileage was about 34 and the ending mileage is about 37 and when he goes back to his normal driving habits I think we can say that he has a 5 to 7 percent increase in mileage and a useful increase in compression. As a subjective comment the car feels smoother and starts easier.

One final bit of trivia about #3. We hooked up a Watt meter on the starter before testing and got 1825 Watts. After the test the same procedure gave us 1770 Watts. I think this means that the engine was easier to turn over after a while on the 4 ounce maintenance dose. These numbers are the average of three runs on the starter. I know it's not science but at least it's interesting.

Compression before/after 4-5 tanks with Auto-Rx in the oil.
#1 185-180-188-165 after 185-175-180-170
#2 188-180-170-175 185-180-175-175
#3 185-170-175-180 188-185-188-185
#4 165-170-168-165 -> after clean & rinse 185-180-185-182

Lab work will follow along with smog test numbers.

Barker

 

[badtlc]

thank you.

 

[RD400]

Interesting. What is the sump capacity of these Civics? Maybe a maintenance dose should be based on total sump capacity rather than a 3 or 4 oz fits all applications solution. I also wish the 3 oz car wasn't sludged so we'd be able to compare its results to the 4 oz car. Thanks for the effort and information.

 

[Rick20]

Pretty interesting study I must say. With regards to car #3, running a 4 ounce maintenance dose, it appears that over 3 tank fulls this level of ARX is capable of freeing up the ring packs.
My thoughts are that this could have been accomplished much quicker with a full blown cleaning and rinse, before starting on the maintenance dose.

I can't wait to see the smog test numbers. Especially number 4, the sludge monster that failed.

 

[Gary Allan]

Seems like you've got enough samples to validate the testing. Kinda neutralizes the lack of controlled conditions a good bit.

When doing this sorta thing, you almost wish you had an endless supply of like vehicles so that you can repeat the test while varying the treat rates.

I might have continued the fuel survey on #4 during the clean and rinse and beyond. It would be long term enough to just track total fuel over the total miles and see how it compared to the pretreatment economy samples. From there it would just take a few tanks to see where the new normalized economy sits ..from there you can back figure how soon the onset of the increased economy occurred by how far it's off from the end sampling vs. the composite.

 

[Rick20]

Thank you Barkerman for sharing this test info. I am sure alot of time and energy went into this testing. It is unfortunet that Car#4 was a sludged up unit and did not allow for a test comparison of 3 fluid ounces in the sump, compared to 4 fluid ounces in test car #3. The restored compression in the sludger is quite impressive. I noticed that you ran a double cleaning dose in this unit once it was discovered to be a sludger. How many miles was the double cleaning dose run to achieve this turnaround in compression? Was a rinse performed as well before taking the final compression readings? Lastly, are there any plans to check the current mileage gains from the cleaning?

 

[BarkerMan]

There is more data and info coming on #4.

I also have some info on a brand new Honda Fit with a manual tranny base model. The starting mileage was 23 miles on the odo, so you can consider this a new car.

Mileage on three tanks before Auto-Rx
33.4, 33.9, 34.0
4 ounces of Auto-Rx
34.1, 33.8, 35.1 35.5, 36.5, 36.3, 36.7, 35.9, 36.0, 37.0 36.1

Car is used in mixed driving but a lot of it is rush hour commutes, same trip every day plus week end used running to the store and stuff like that.

Part of it is "running in" the engine and tranny but these Honda's are well built and I don't think there is too much to break in. You can say that the mileage went from 34 to 36 mpg.

The engine is run on 5w-20 Honda oil and is about to switch to Red Line 5w-20 in the engine and Red Line MTL in the tranny. The owner is also going to start to use Red Line gas additive at the dose rate of 1 ounce per 10 gal's of gas. There were no gas additives used during the mileage checks and the car was driven by the same driver 90% of the time. She is about to get a Scan-gauge and start hypermileing.

 

[BarkerMan]

I think there has been some confusion on the part of those that have sent me PM's. Car #4 was removed from the test and cleaned up and there is test data coming. #4 is just behind the others.

#4 was added at the last minute by an owner that said his car was in perfect shape and had been cleaned up with an engine flush product just before the testing began. I think that the sludge problem did not come to light until the Auto-Rx had some time to work. Even a three oz dose was enough to start the process of breaking down deposits in the engine.

This testing was done to isolate the maintenance dose. If we had done a clean/rinse first there would have been some confusion about where the two overlapped. It has been my experience that the clean phase starts the process but the rinse phase is where the real cleaning out happens and it continues after the end of the rinse phase on into the next oil change or two, maybe even longer in some cases. In these tests I wanted to isolate the maintenance dose.

On the new Fit I think we can say that it did do some cleaning on a new engine and the benefits of the maintenance dose can be realized on a new engine. One does not have to wait to start using Auto-Rx.

Again I have lab data coming and also more testing info.

 

[badtlc]

I dont have any nice data sets to add to yours barker man but I did start my wife's 2007 Escape 2.3L on Kendall 5w20 w/ the 3oz maintenance dose around 13k miles on the clock. Her daily work commute MPG (which I calculate religiously) has improved from 26mpg to a little over 27mpg.

 

[DmanWho]

A cabin in Idaho? Right on Barkerman! You're living the dream.

Enjoy your retirement, but you got to be sure and login here sometimes. Take Care.

 

[Steve S]

A R/X is good stuff!!

 

[BarkerMan]

The lab data is delayed until tomorrow. I sent samples to a second lab because of some irregular patterns and I wanted to be sure.

I have a comment about inexpensive lab tests. Do some double checking if you get odd results or a problem is indicated. This is kind of a plug for someone like Terry Dyson but Larry says he is worth the extra expense because he may be better at spotting the difference between a data problem and an oil problem. I'm not going to publish the name of the lab because I have no idea if the problem is just an odd error or an indication of quality of lab work or a sample error.

Here is the smog data for #4

Numbers when the sludge problem was detected. The car failed smog and the test was changed a bit. We went from 3 oz maintenance to a "get past smog" test.

HC(PPM)
before 225 @2043rpm
end of clean cycle 188 @2100rpm
end of rinse cycle 41

CO(%)
before 0.21
end of clean cycle 0.23
end of clean 0.13

NO(PPM)
before 399
after clean cycle 378
after rinse 355

HC was a big reduction, others lowered but not as dramatically

The compression is another story. It was dramatic
#4 165-170-168-165 -> after clean & rinse 185-180-185-182

Auto-Rx made a major difference in performance in this vehicle and helped the owner avoid major expenses in getting registered.
The cheapest estimate by a shop to repair the vehicle to pass smog was $2400. One estimate was $3500. I think a couple of bottles of Auto-Rx is a better solution.

A comment about the clean and rinse cycle. I like the idea of using 20 ounces for the clean and use the last 4 ounces from two bottle as the first maintenance dose after the rinse.

 

[Titan]

Wow. Those numbers are impressive. And, nothing else was done other than ARX?

I'm sold on the stuff because of what it did for my HVLA tick, but, this is really impressive!

 

[sprintman]

Barkerman as a long time RX user I'm very impressed with what you are doing. I to have been 'doing my own thing' with RX on my old Mazda turbo. Extended drains blah blah. Rapt in the stuff you are doing with maintenance dose, keep it up sir!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: BarkerMan

A comment about the clean and rinse cycle. I like the idea of using 20 ounces for the clean and use the last 4 ounces from two bottle as the first maintenance dose after the rinse.


Impressive results. With the 20 oz dose are you suggesting clean rinse then another 20 oz clean rinse with the over 100K vehicles? Or are you doing a 20 ounce clean, then rinse, then right to the 4oz maint dose? Reason I ask is because for some users using the suggested method could take well over a year to do on a high miler.

Thanks,
Frank D

 

[Frank]

The experiment was 1 (20 ounce dose of Auto-Rx)) as cleaning ratio in fresh group 111 or group 11 oil with clean filter. At 1250 miles change filter and top off oil (no more Auto-Rx) at 2500 miles change out oil. Rinse mode stay with group 111 or group 11 for 3000 miles (at 1500 miles change filter top off oil if needed)) end of rinse mode we say stay with oil you used for Application .Now use rest of second bottle as maintenance dose.

THIS IS AN EXPERIMENTAL APPLICATION TO SEE IF WE CAN GET THE JOB DONE WITH 2 BOTTLES OF AUTO-RX INSTEAD OF 3 BOTTLES. (SLUDGE-SEAL-HEAVY OIL BURNING APPLICATIONS ALL STAY THE SAME) ABOVE IS RING PACKS-DIRT -CONTAMINANTS. LARRY,S NUMBERS SAY IT ALL.

 

[Frank]

Auto-Rx has always looked for ways to reduce cost to our customers.
First we have to have third party testing done by a legitimate respected source, it takes time. Buying two bottles (especially during our 4th of July sale) and using the above application saves you money.

This country needs to pull together and if we can save one customer the cost of a third bottle and meet his Auto-Rx expectations we will do it.

 

[demarpaint]

Wish this post was up a few weeks ago, I am about 900 miles into the clean phase and would have loved to try the 20oz dose. So far the oil on the stick is still clean and the vehicle is running fine. I will continue with the original game plan.

Thanks,
Frank D

 

[BarkerMan]

Don't worry, the standard instructions as always really do work. We are just trying to lean what a bit stronger dose would do. You're in good shape demarpait.

The numbers are slow because I am re-running them all, but it look like this.

Start a clean/rinse or maintenance dose and wear particles show up in analysis. This does not mean that suddenly the oil and Auto-Rx are not lubricating the engine it's just that stuff is now being pushed out into the oil to be picked up. As far as I can tell the particles are really small and even standard oil analysis might not see them all in your report. But they gradually get picked up in the filter or get drained out with the oil. It appears that they are in a condition that does not cause increased wear. That appears to be a difference between Auto-Rx and solvents. Auto-Rx changes the stuff into a form that can be picked up and drained out. Solvents are more like an explosion in the oil system and the particles are not changed much. These particles are thought to just plug the screen and get into the oil galleries and oil passages but they may also cause wear between surfaces that should have just oil under pressure. It's like taking many of the particles and giving them a second chance at your lubricated surfaces.

We were kicking this idea around in the shop about the process of Auto-Rx attacking the deposits a couple of weeks ago and tried an experiment. Now don't all you experts cry foul, just read on. We took oil filters off test cars and drained the goop into a coffee can. after getting a bunch of goop we did an experiment. We have a riding lawn mower that has an 18hp a/c engine with an oil pump and filter. We machined up a block off plate to eliminate the filter and keep the flow. We then ran the lawn mower around the grass measuring the engine surface temps with an i/r gun to get an idea of what to expect. Indicated temp on one good dull flat spot was 196F. We then drew out 4 oz of oil from an almost 2 qt system and added the 4 oz of goop or almost 15% goop by volume. Same run on the mower and not temp difference. We then removed 4 more oz's and added 4 oz's more goop bringing the percentage to about 30 and still not temp changes. This is not science and we are professionals so don't try this at home. I posted it just so you could take some cheap shots at it but it was interesting. It appears that while the deposits are being attacked and the results are running around the oil system of our lawn more is safe from damage. This is a key difference between Auto-Rx and solvents. You don't need to focus on the fact that solvents can clean. By the way we drained out the oil and added new oil but left it 8 oz low. The mower hit 240F and we shut it down and topped it off. I just wanted to see if the oil level had an effect on the temp, and it sure did. The fact that the mower ran with 8 oz's of Auto-Rx attacked deposits and held it's temp shows that Auto-Rx is at least not degrading the lubrication process.

 

[RedOak]

Well the only thing I can say is thanks to Frank for making a cost effective product to help issues that garages of dealerships want thousands to fix. My gas mileage has improved almost 2 mpg after first clean rinse cycle. 36 gallon tank- 72 more potential miles with today's fuel price is great news.