Ashless Dispersants in Gas Engines

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Jan 30, 2018
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How do ashless dispersants compare to overbased metallic sulfonates with respect to piston cleanliness in gas engines?
Are they leveraged for long-life formulations that are low SAPS, or do formulations err on choosing a more oxidation resistant base oil?
 
Aviation engines & oils may be a useful comparison. The AD oils used in aviation don't protect against corrosion very well, compared to car engines. If you let the engine sit around, don't operate it regularly, the internals (especially cams) will corrode. But these big air cooled engines contaminate the oil long before the oil shows any viscosity change, so long-life oil formulations are pointless. Regarding SAPS, UOA measures P but not S, and shows P levels around 15 ppm. Unless I add Camguard additive, in which case P rises from 15 to around 75, and Ca rises from around 10 (ashless dispersant should preclude the use of Ca) to around 100.

In contrast, UOA on the water cooled gasoline engine in my motorbike showed: CA at 2650 ppm, P at 1100, Zn at 1300. Huge difference compared to AD oils. And this oil lasted several years and several thousand miles without contamination or changing viscosity, and maintaining healthy TBN. All while lubricating a wet clutch and transmission as well as the engine, which is harder service. The AD oil used in aviation could never do that.
 
How do ashless dispersants compare to overbased metallic sulfonates with respect to piston cleanliness in gas engines?
Are they leveraged for long-life formulations that are low SAPS, or do formulations err on choosing a more oxidation resistant base oil?
In general, ashless dispersants may be a bit more costly but theoretically (all else being equal), offer more cleanliness and leave fewer deposits because of the lack of metallic's being left after combustion.

A formulation need not sacrifice oxidation resistance for ashless dispersancy and combustion cleanliness.
 
In general, ashless dispersants may be a bit more costly but theoretically (all else being equal), offer more cleanliness and leave fewer deposits because of the lack of metallic's being left after combustion.

A formulation need not sacrifice oxidation resistance for ashless dispersancy and combustion cleanliness.
So, any ideas on what these "experimental" chemicals are??? These appear at the end of this article:
 
So, any ideas on what these "experimental" chemicals are??? These appear at the end of this article:
Also makes you wonder what products 4 & 5 are. I'm sure product 3 is Techron, but don't know if they switched the PEA from PB to PO.
 
Aviation engines & oils may be a useful comparison. The AD oils used in aviation don't protect against corrosion very well, compared to car engines. If you let the engine sit around, don't operate it regularly, the internals (especially cams) will corrode. But these big air cooled engines contaminate the oil long before the oil shows any viscosity change, so long-life oil formulations are pointless. Regarding SAPS, UOA measures P but not S, and shows P levels around 15 ppm. Unless I add Camguard additive, in which case P rises from 15 to around 75, and Ca rises from around 10 (ashless dispersant should preclude the use of Ca) to around 100.

In contrast, UOA on the water cooled gasoline engine in my motorbike showed: CA at 2650 ppm, P at 1100, Zn at 1300. Huge difference compared to AD oils. And this oil lasted several years and several thousand miles without contamination or changing viscosity, and maintaining healthy TBN. All while lubricating a wet clutch and transmission as well as the engine, which is harder service. The AD oil used in aviation could never do that.
I have used Aeroshell W15W-50 in my Subaru EA71S engine (pushrod, not OHC). It's one of the few oils that can withstand summer use in hot temperatures (90deg+) because the oil temperatures can get into the 130degC range, continuously, for a 200-300mi highway trip. TBN doesn't matter. The engine never sits for more than 12 hours or so at a time and almost never gets driven for such a short distance that the oil doesn't get to at least 100C. Oil contamination situation is similar, by 5000 miles the oil is done, either by fuel dilution or it's just cooked. That is also my choice of oil for running 100LL avgas or Sunoco 110, which is occasionally necessary to reduce detonation in high temperatures. This engine has around 12:1 or 13:1 compression, dynamic compression is much lower due to a huge cam around 305/305 advertised duration. Synthetic oils often have sludge problems with leaded fuels. My other choice would be Schaeffer's Micron-Moly 20W50. Occasionally I have also run Aeroshell 120 with Lycoming TCP additive. My friend also has good luck with the W15W-50 in his Triumph Spitfire. Less valvetrain noise, less oil burning than other oils.
IMG_20231017_085046.jpg
 
I have used Aeroshell W15W-50 in my Subaru EA71S engine (pushrod, not OHC). It's one of the few oils that can withstand summer use in hot temperatures (90deg+) because the oil temperatures can get into the 130degC range, continuously, for a 200-300mi highway trip. ... Synthetic oils often have sludge problems with leaded fuels. ...
Aeroshell 15W50 is semi-synthetic, as compared to Phillips XC 20w50 which is mineral oil. Mineral oils can hold contaminants in suspension better than synthetics, which is important when running leaded gas in air-cooled engines (maybe also in gas powered air cooled magneto fired lawnmowers). Years ago, Mobil had a synthetic aviation oil called AV1 that ended up destroying engines due in part to this problem (more on that here at BITOG and many other places). Mobil ended up buying ruined engines under warranty or lawsuit, then discontinued that oil.

That said, Aeroshell 15W50 remains a popular aviation engine oil and I don't think it had any of the sludging problems that Mobil AV1 did.
 
I have used Aeroshell W15W-50 in my Subaru EA71S engine (pushrod, not OHC). It's one of the few oils that can withstand summer use in hot temperatures (90deg+) because the oil temperatures can get into the 130degC range, continuously, for a 200-300mi highway trip. TBN doesn't matter. The engine never sits for more than 12 hours or so at a time and almost never gets driven for such a short distance that the oil doesn't get to at least 100C. Oil contamination situation is similar, by 5000 miles the oil is done, either by fuel dilution or it's just cooked. That is also my choice of oil for running 100LL avgas or Sunoco 110, which is occasionally necessary to reduce detonation in high temperatures. This engine has around 12:1 or 13:1 compression, dynamic compression is much lower due to a huge cam around 305/305 advertised duration. Synthetic oils often have sludge problems with leaded fuels. My other choice would be Schaeffer's Micron-Moly 20W50. Occasionally I have also run Aeroshell 120 with Lycoming TCP additive. My friend also has good luck with the W15W-50 in his Triumph Spitfire. Less valvetrain noise, less oil burning than other oils.
It gets that hot in Massachusetts?
 
Aeroshell 15W50 is semi-synthetic, as compared to Phillips XC 20w50 which is mineral oil. Mineral oils can hold contaminants in suspension better than synthetics, which is important when running leaded gas in air-cooled engines (maybe also in gas powered air cooled magneto fired lawnmowers). Years ago, Mobil had a synthetic aviation oil called AV1 that ended up destroying engines due in part to this problem (more on that here at BITOG and many other places). Mobil ended up buying ruined engines under warranty or lawsuit, then discontinued that oil.

That said, Aeroshell 15W50 remains a popular aviation engine oil and I don't think it had any of the sludging problems that Mobil AV1 did.
Yes, I have never heard of issues with Aeroshell 15w50. I was comparing to an automotive full synthetic, ie Mobil 1 15w50, which I did see sludging issues with in this particular engine running on leaded fuel. Aeroshell is probably the best of the aircraft oils and certainly the best for my automotive application. The oil temps in the summer are just too hot for an automotive conventional oil. They don't last even 500 miles before getting so thin that idle oil pressure is 8 psi. That combined with the need to use leaded fuel to boost octane, means Aeroshell is the only choice to maintain a reasonable OCI. When G100UL aviation fuel becomes widely available, automotive synthetic will do just fine year round. The rest of the year, Mobil 1 or another automotive synthetic does fine.
 
... When G100UL aviation fuel becomes widely available, automotive synthetic will do just fine year round. The rest of the year, Mobil 1 or another automotive synthetic does fine.
Most pilots and aircraft owners are also looking forward to this. The days of fouled plugs, gunked up valves, and oil changes every 4 months or 50 hours will soon be history. The engines will run cleaner and almost certainly last longer between overhauls.
 
In August, yes, frequently. Especially if I have to go to the Cape to visit my mother. This summer it got over 100 for a week or so. And if I travel to Southern Vermont for example, which I often do, it is even hotter.
Right, somehow I thought you lived in down south. Maybe that was another previous member.
 
Most pilots and aircraft owners are also looking forward to this. The days of fouled plugs, gunked up valves, and oil changes every 4 months or 50 hours will soon be history. The engines will run cleaner and almost certainly last longer between overhauls.
Not to mention full synthetic piston aircraft oils. Who knows what Exxon, Shell, or Phillips will come out with when unleaded fuel is widely available. I use 100LL in the Subaru engine because it is the cheapest high octane fuel available. If I fill my tank with it once, and then fill up with 93 when it gets to 1/2, and then keep filling it at 1/2, my engine doesn't knock, or ping, for quite a while. It's very cost effective in comparison to 110 Sunoco, which I sometimes use, but is much more expensive and performs the same. Not to mention if I am visiting my mother's house, there is a small airport right next door with self service pumps. It's almost worth it in comparison to waiting for hours in traffic to get to a gas station, just for the time savings. No catalytic converter in this car, so I am not worried about cat fouling. Rarely ever have fouled plugs, as they are surface gap plugs because anything else causes detonation in this high compression engine. Any fouling burns out of the gap as soon as the spark happens. But I am looking forward to the unleaded fuel as it will be high octane fuel, suitable for fuel injected cars even, and a lower price in comparison to race fuel. I do also carry jets for E85 in my glovebox. But it's so rare around here that I really only use them when traveling on I-90 for a long period of time, where the stations often have E85. I have often thought about getting the Daytona adjustable main jet Holley 1904 carb, just so I can mark the needle and have 3 positions, one for E85, one for 93, one for non ethanol, but the 300 bucks just isn't worth it for me. Maybe if I can get just the bowl, needle, and jet and convert my existing 1904, but I have not looked into that yet.
 
So, any ideas on what these "experimental" chemicals are??? These appear at the end of this article:
Yes. the detergents are hydrocarbyl-substituted poly(oxyalkylene)amines of dodecylphenoxy poly(oxybutylene)amine and 4- polyisobutylphenoxyethyl para-aminobenzoate in a carrier oil with one or more of the following solvents: aliphatic or an aromatic hydrocarbons such as benzene, toluene, xylene, or higher-boiling aromatics or aromatic thinners and aliphatic alcohols.
 
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