I have some ready to go into the wife's SUV. Wonder if it has AN in it?
Are Alkylated Naphthalenes the secret sauce in motor oil?
- Thread starter ZZman
- Start date
Specifically, off the shelf formulas change all the time. As price is a factor, as much as specifications.
I know one major brand HDEO 15w40 that has over 70 registered & licensed blends. Don’t over think it too much. AN’s are good, yes. But like the cake mix. If you have 12oz of cake mix, there’s only so many things you can put into 12oz. Balance it appropriately to meet the end goal.
You can’t put 16oz in a 12oz box.
So in your opinion are AN's better then PAO or Esters or are they equal?
Have you read any of your own thread?
Yes I have. They appear better. But I wasn't asking for my own opinion. Are you here to harass me yet again on one of my posts?
Can you add useful information here K?
dnewton3
Staff member
ZZMan -
The problem you are having is that you seem to want to boil this down to one "best" (preferred) additive or base stock. And the reality is that just isn't true. There is no "best" additive or base stock; there are many good ones, when properly crafted and manufactured. As Mola' has said repeatedly, there are products which are targeted to a specific application and/or spec(s), and then lubes are blended with base stocks and additives to meet that goal.
Have you ever seen the movie "Erin Brockovich"? If you recall, there is a scene where she learns that "chromium" is just a class of compounds; some are useful in the human body, some are benign, and some (hexavalent chromium) are very bad. And so to say "chromium" is good for you is very misleading and tantamount to having a uniformed conversation. Part of the problem lies in the casual use of words we use here, when specifics actually matter greatly. For example, "ester" is a class of compounds; there is not just one "ester". Therefore, when someone here says "esters", they really aren't being specific enough to really discuss the dets fully. Same goes with the word "zinc". There are many various compounds with zinc, and they don't all have the same benefits in terms of lubrication.
As an example, many of HPLs lubes use a very highly refined grp III stock, with certain esters and ANs. These products are a very carefully crafted balance of ingredients and stocks which are tailored to this goal. Even a small shift in an additive can make success or failure to that goal. HPL went through many iterations of their anti-foam input to finally get the balance they wanted. And they are not alone ... I'm sure Amsoil and other premium lubes do the same. Other mass-market products are not as tightly crafted, but still do a good job.
You're focusing on ANs (alkylated naphthalenes) as if they are a singular entity which can be called "best" (or not best, should you prefer to be the antagonist). It's just not that simple. That class of compounds is VERY useful when combined with other ingredients to provide an overall desired result. But it's not the go-to product in all OTC lubes, mainly because of price; it's not cheap. And it must be paired with other compounds in a very well-crafted product; it can't just be thrown together as an addition to some other finished product. It would be a very bad idea to take a finished product and then do a home-brew by adding in your own ANs; you'd run a high risk of upsetting the product balance. And just as with all other elements and compounds, each has a pro and con. PAOs are really great at low temps and holding their vis, but they aren't great at solubility. ANs are good at high temps, but not low temps, and they are fantastic as a cleaning agent. Group IIIs actually include not only highly fractured lubes, but also can be GTLs, if I understand the classifications correctly (I may be off base here).
The bottom line is that you seem to be Hades-bent on finding an answer which, in reality, does not exist. There is no "one best" base stock or additive. Some of the highest performing lubes are tightly crafted and made, but they reach that goal by various roads. Several roads lead to that same destination. Some do it better than others, but I don't believe there's one "always best" oil. If that were the case, Amsoil, HPL and other super-premium lube makers wouldn't have multiple products in their line-up. HPL and Amsoil have products which are PAO based, but they also offer products which are grp III based. Some have ANs; some do not. It's all a game of defining a target, and then making the product fit that market. If every single application were identical, and had the exact same OCI, and the exact same cost ROI, then maybe the world would have only one oil. But that just ain't the case.
I hope that helps you understand that your quest is unlikely to find resolution.
The problem you are having is that you seem to want to boil this down to one "best" (preferred) additive or base stock. And the reality is that just isn't true. There is no "best" additive or base stock; there are many good ones, when properly crafted and manufactured. As Mola' has said repeatedly, there are products which are targeted to a specific application and/or spec(s), and then lubes are blended with base stocks and additives to meet that goal.
Have you ever seen the movie "Erin Brockovich"? If you recall, there is a scene where she learns that "chromium" is just a class of compounds; some are useful in the human body, some are benign, and some (hexavalent chromium) are very bad. And so to say "chromium" is good for you is very misleading and tantamount to having a uniformed conversation. Part of the problem lies in the casual use of words we use here, when specifics actually matter greatly. For example, "ester" is a class of compounds; there is not just one "ester". Therefore, when someone here says "esters", they really aren't being specific enough to really discuss the dets fully. Same goes with the word "zinc". There are many various compounds with zinc, and they don't all have the same benefits in terms of lubrication.
As an example, many of HPLs lubes use a very highly refined grp III stock, with certain esters and ANs. These products are a very carefully crafted balance of ingredients and stocks which are tailored to this goal. Even a small shift in an additive can make success or failure to that goal. HPL went through many iterations of their anti-foam input to finally get the balance they wanted. And they are not alone ... I'm sure Amsoil and other premium lubes do the same. Other mass-market products are not as tightly crafted, but still do a good job.
You're focusing on ANs (alkylated naphthalenes) as if they are a singular entity which can be called "best" (or not best, should you prefer to be the antagonist). It's just not that simple. That class of compounds is VERY useful when combined with other ingredients to provide an overall desired result. But it's not the go-to product in all OTC lubes, mainly because of price; it's not cheap. And it must be paired with other compounds in a very well-crafted product; it can't just be thrown together as an addition to some other finished product. It would be a very bad idea to take a finished product and then do a home-brew by adding in your own ANs; you'd run a high risk of upsetting the product balance. And just as with all other elements and compounds, each has a pro and con. PAOs are really great at low temps and holding their vis, but they aren't great at solubility. ANs are good at high temps, but not low temps, and they are fantastic as a cleaning agent. Group IIIs actually include not only highly fractured lubes, but also can be GTLs, if I understand the classifications correctly (I may be off base here).
The bottom line is that you seem to be Hades-bent on finding an answer which, in reality, does not exist. There is no "one best" base stock or additive. Some of the highest performing lubes are tightly crafted and made, but they reach that goal by various roads. Several roads lead to that same destination. Some do it better than others, but I don't believe there's one "always best" oil. If that were the case, Amsoil, HPL and other super-premium lube makers wouldn't have multiple products in their line-up. HPL and Amsoil have products which are PAO based, but they also offer products which are grp III based. Some have ANs; some do not. It's all a game of defining a target, and then making the product fit that market. If every single application were identical, and had the exact same OCI, and the exact same cost ROI, then maybe the world would have only one oil. But that just ain't the case.
I hope that helps you understand that your quest is unlikely to find resolution.
AN' fall into Gr5 and are used in very small amounts with other base oils like PAO and GR3/3+. IOW a little goes a long way.
@OVERKILL has posted the XOM presentation numerous times over the years.
I always heard love was the secrete ingredient.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2022
- Messages
- 559
Or some Amsoil SS
First time I ran Penrite 10-Tenths (100% PAO and ester oil) I was somehow expecting great things.
But nothing changed when driving my car. Maybe if I was racing and the oil was getting excessively hot then it would have been better in resisting thermal breakdown. But I wasn’t racing. Maybe if I let the oil change interval get very long then it would have lasted better. But I change my oil every 6k to 9k miles.
Better is only important if you need more. I had all I needed with standard Group III synthetics, for my application. A lot of this talk is application dependent. I’ve hear good things about AN, and I can certainly get them here via Nulon oils, but I can’t see why I need them.
But nothing changed when driving my car. Maybe if I was racing and the oil was getting excessively hot then it would have been better in resisting thermal breakdown. But I wasn’t racing. Maybe if I let the oil change interval get very long then it would have lasted better. But I change my oil every 6k to 9k miles.
Better is only important if you need more. I had all I needed with standard Group III synthetics, for my application. A lot of this talk is application dependent. I’ve hear good things about AN, and I can certainly get them here via Nulon oils, but I can’t see why I need them.
Everything made with love is better....oh wait, strike the word better.....
That has already been done here.
We all know it's just a rhetorical question . . . .
You still doesn't get it (yet), probably since you didn't actually read what has been
offered repeatedly.
ANs are NO replacement for PAO or group 3 base oil. If at all they complement each
other. In simple words, PAO is 'stable' regarding heat (volatility) and oxidation and it
provides excellent cold properties, but it has poor solubility (even worse than gr. 3).
So you want (NEED) some dose to improve solubility. Either group 1 or 2 (cheap but
with the known weaknesses) or POE (ester) and ANs (much costlier)*. That's what all
blenders/companies do.
The composition matters. Not 'either or' but both. We're talking abou PCMOs (and
transmission oils). Not about jet turbine oils.
You would already know it, just if you have read what kind forum members and the
forum already provides for you.
*Esters and ANs come with their own deficiencies. For example, most esters in general:
some elevated propensity to hydrolysis and oxidation. ANs: poor VI, poor pourpoint. In
simple words. Don't take everything too literally.
.
It really depends what specifically you want to achieve as a blender. Do you want surface active ingredients or not? do you need a really low pour point? Do you want some seal swelling like a high mileage oil?
Goals like that will steer a blender to more or less of a specific base oil. Keep in mind that if you boost one aspect, you likely loose on one or more others.
What’s wrong with skipping all that mixing and baking, and just eating the premium chocolate chips straight out of the bag??
My daughter would say the same.
