alcohol in fuel vs engine wear?

[friendly_jacek]

I've heard both ways:

"alcohol burn slower and cleaner and hence less wear" and "cars in Brazil (E25) have less wear now than they used to"

but also: "alcohol burning byproducts produce accelerate wear in cold engine" and "alcohol doesn't lubricate".

Any local experts on this?

 

[NHGUY]

Alcohol strips the cylinder walls of lubrication.

 

[Falken]

^+1

If you go and buy TC-W3 rated Ashless outboard 2 stroke motor oil, add 2 oz. per tank to use as a upper cylinder lubricant.

If you have a few weeks spare time to read up on this, and why people are doing it, and the AW and FE gains, and how it counters the effect of Ethanol in the entire fuel system...

I'll stop there as I don't want to get the "beating a dead horse" replies from others beyond what I just said.

Gas pedal wise and FE wise, I use Shell Nautilus 2t Marine TC-W3 ashless, and it just feels like I have every tank treated with Red Line SL-1, which is a PEA cleaner and UCL.

 

[CharlieW618]

Originally Posted By: Falken
^+1

If you go and buy TC-W3 rated Ashless outboard 2 stroke motor oil, add 2 oz. per tank to use as a upper cylinder lubricant.

If you have a few weeks spare time to read up on this, and why people are doing it, and the AW and FE gains, and how it counters the effect of Ethanol in the entire fuel system...

I'll stop there as I don't want to get the "beating a dead horse" replies from others beyond what I just said.

Gas pedal wise and FE wise, I use Shell Nautilus 2t Marine TC-W3 ashless, and it just feels like I have every tank treated with Red Line SL-1, which is a PEA cleaner and UCL.



I use one ounce of TC-W3 to 5 gallons in my 4 cycle stuff.

 

[440Magnum]

I wouldn't worry a hoot about alcohol up to E15.

Now, my truck is a flex-fuel vehicle and can run E85. I've tried it a few times just for grins, and its actually VERY cool- the octane rating is off the charts, so the engine management system goes all out on timing advance, and the power output is probably better throughout the RPM band than with E-10.

But its not economically viable- I've done the math and even with E85 being gummint subsidized and $.30/gallon cheaper than gasoline, the cost per mile is about 1-2 cents per mile HIGHER than gasoline because of the lower thermal energy content per gallon (mileage drops by about 3 MPG in combined driving.)

All that aside, I'd love to someday do a whole OCI on E85 and then have a look at the UOA compared to one with gasoline. I'd bet on higher dilution, higher acidity, and *maybe* more ring/cylinder wear metals. But that isn't gonna happen- only 2 E85 stations in my area, and both are a little too far off my beaten track to hit every fill-up for the 6 months it would take me to run out even a 6k mile OCI, let alone a 9k.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Alcohol strips the cylinder walls of lubrication.

+ 1 There is a fair amount of info on what happens to alcohol fueled Indy engines. Long life isn't number one on their list.

 

[friendly_jacek]

I did some searches and found some very conflicting info.

Technical Research Center of Finland found E15 showed equal or decreased wear vs E0 in 80% of tested cars (back in 80s with carburated cars).

Recent CRC study of E15 showed increased exhaust valve/seat wear in some cars, but small sample (sponsored by oil companies).

Orbital Engine company study in Australia in 2004 showed increased deposits, increased wear, and damaged cats with E20 for 50,000 km in significant numbers of cars (sponsored by Aussie Government).

Minnesota E20 study showed no problems with E20 whatsoever, one year only study (sponsored by agriculture lobbies).

I also came across studies on the ethanol "cylinder wall wash" with E85, but the UOA posted here or elsewhere show no increase in wear metals with E85.

 

[mechtech2]

It's the fuel pump that I am concerned about.
The top end? Not so much.
However:
Ford manuals among others recommended a shorter OCI with alcohol fuels, so there must be something to it.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Anyone knows someone in Brazil to ask how the 100% alcohol cars are doing in terms of reliability? I can find nothing by goggling. I don't speak Portuguese though.

 

[HerrStig]

If the farm lobby wants it, the FACTS will be hard to find.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
If the farm lobby wants it, the FACTS will be hard to find.


I hear you. But you would thing there should be some facts coming from Brazil that runs entirely on E25 or E100 (besides diesel and LPG). The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it's a non issue (except for carburated engines of course).

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
If the farm lobby wants it, the FACTS will be hard to find.


I hear you. But you would thing there should be some facts coming from Brazil that runs entirely on E25 or E100 (besides diesel and LPG). The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it's a non issue (except for carburated engines of course).
Maybe not, but I have a number of owners manuals for my stuff which are very clear on no more than E 10, or warranty go PUFF. Latest is a brand new 4 cycle OHV powered snow blower.

 

[morris]

there is a reason we have had gasoline for so long. but i repeat my self.

 

[shovel]

Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Alcohol strips the cylinder walls of lubrication.


Citation needed.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

E85 being gummint subsidized

The subsidy ended over a year ago. It is not subsidized in the present time. Unless you count the petroleum component of it, which is.

There's as much lobby [censored] from both sides, the oil industry and the ag industry. I hate that. I hate just how much [censored] there is floating around about ethanol in fuel, the signal to noise ratio is rubbish.

I don't have any ties whatsoever to either industry, or any fuel industry. I run E85 in my 4.7L powered Jeep whenever I have the opportunity. It is not a factory FFV vehicle, but has enough injector bandwidth to maintain stoichiometry. I ran E85 whenever possible in my 4.3L S10 which I had modified with a FullFlex kit (the instructions were in Portuguese...) it easily saw 30k out of its most recent 100k miles on straight E85 before I sold it, and there was never even the vaguest hint of a problem with any part of the engine or fuel delivery system, unless you count the fuel level sender problem all s10's of that era experienced. I ran my 92 Tempo on E85 or CNG (it was bifuel) exclusively, never had a problem.

I regard 100% of all ethanol "horror stories" as silly old stories that people toss back and forth without any first-hand knowledge.

That's my take.

 

[HerrStig]

You can always tell when something is on sound economic footing when the government "mandates" it.