Akebono pads claim low-dust, how is this a good thing?

[John105]

This thread is funny, the one-size fits all mantra, huh? 2/3 of my cars do have Akebono ProActs because they are not performance cars and they're the equivalent of OEM (on one car they are the OE). The other car came with semi-metallic so I keep them semi-metallic. I would say the opposite, why not stick with what came with the car, to keep the trade-offs consistent with how the cars were delivered from the factory.

 

[ordinarybloke]

Your entire premise is wrong. Brakes do not stop a car by converting kinetic energy to dust.

Brakes stop a car by converting kinetic energy to HEAT.

Really? Brakes work with heat... dust/wear is avoidable? Force can create friction >> heat; we can have friction without wear? Wear is not a by-product of friction, along with heat. Thus brakes do not create friction by producing dust/wear as well. Hence: Brakes do not stop a car by converting kinetic energy to dust.

Well I never did.

I can see where this is going. this thinking needs to be more specific: and can you see where you’ve gone wrong? Don’t worry too much, it’s a common mistake. You forgot to say if we want proper, well-proven physics, or internet forum quack-physics?

Quack-physics is always entertaining. Carry on.

 

[ordinarybloke]

It will probably be locked. Mods are probably spending time with family

I remember their post about brake fluid.

This thread does not knock Akebono, if they can sell pads on the basis of 'low dust', this without their customers questioning this premise, more power to them. It's up there with paying $6-7 for burnt coffee because the seller makes you suck it thru' a slot.

Pure genius.

I digress. The post on brake-fluid was no troll. It was an attempt to myth-bust the idea that colored fluid has been banned. It hasn't. Gov't did nothing. Before the point could be made clear, maybe somewhat poorly - the thread was killed by modmin power.

You can have colored fluid, it just can't be sold DOT label. In some states there's the added difficulty, it can't be registered if you try. Which is fair, it'd be a false claim.

The thread got locked before this point could be made. Are the red, greens and blues found in Maserati and Bentley illegal? Is LHS fluid illegal? Is early RR363 ( in red - lately it's made clear with DOT 3 label) illegal? No. You would be wrong to put DOT fluid in some cars. Kendal Hyken Glacial Blu is good for some models of RR. Guess what color that is? LHM has no DOT label. There's no law that says you MUST use DOT fluid, it's just - in the round - wiser when you do.

The DOT standard doesn't apply in brakes, only its container. And fluid will go green/bluish in copper-lines anyway. Of course, let me guess, because this goes against the grain... this is also a troll.

 

[chris719]

Whether a lower dust pad is good or bad really depends on the specific car and brakes we are talking about. Generally, sportier cars and Euro cars have used dusty pads relying more on abrasive friction to ensure good initial bite in all conditions. However, some new cars now seem to have decent bite even with lower dust pads. Likely because they were designed to run these pads. Even some BMWs can be ok with lower bite pads. My M2C has an insanely bitey, over-servoed brake pedal. When the brakes are warm it’s incredibly annoying. They benefit very much from replacing the stock Pagid GG rated pads with Carbotech 1521 which has much less bite but makes the overall feel like what it should have been.

 

[ordinarybloke]

Yes, I suspect there's a lot of that going on. Late cars seem to have ever larger booster/servos. If we're piling on the force onto ever larger surface areas to rid us of the heat, we can have pad materials that are very hard, and less likely to fade. Pads which would not work with older and smaller sized servo/boosters. The late set-ups will wear slowly, which won't produce (per mile) as much dust. Best of both worlds.

You've swapped in 'more feel' for a change in wear, and fade-point. Fair enough. You understand what you're doing and the trade-off - it works for you.

 

[Pew]

Different compound, different characteristics. Did you ask them for a tq chart?

 

[Astro14]

I’ve had the Akebono ceramic pads on four of my cars.

There are three important differences between them and conventional pads, they have a lot less dust, the rotors last a lot longer, and there is a slight, emphasize, slight, reduction in “bite“.

There is not a linear relationship between dust and friction, as the OP presumes. Friction isn’t that simple.

It’s not true that you have to have the same amount of dust to get the same amount of friction.

The Akebono’s have about 85% of the friction, but less than 10% of the dust.

I got 100,000 miles on a set of front brakes on my wife’s car with almost no dust from the first set of Akebono ceramic pads. Her car is on its second set of pads, and with over 60,000 miles on those pads, they still have good thickness. The rotors are wearing very slowly, and the surface is quite smooth.

OEM Volvo and Mercedes pads usually create a lot of black dust, they have excellent bite, and they wear fairly quickly. I’m delighted to trade a tiny bit of that bite for smoothness, longevity and low dust.

She doesn’t drive aggressively, and neither do I, but in a panic stop they are quite capable of engaging the ABS. So it’s not like they are somehow less safe. Your braking power will still be excellent, if the underlying brake system is excellent.

 

[Astro14]

Really? Brakes work with heat... dust/wear is avoidable? Force can create friction >> heat; we can have friction without wear? Wear is not a by-product of friction, along with heat. Thus brakes do not create friction by producing dust/wear as well. Hence: Brakes do not stop a car by converting kinetic energy to dust.

Well I never did.

I can see where this is going. this thinking needs to be more specific: and can you see where you’ve gone wrong? Don’t worry too much, it’s a common mistake. You forgot to say if we want proper, well-proven physics, or internet forum quack-physics?

Quack-physics is always entertaining. Carry on.

You make a lot of assumptions, and even toss a few insults in there, but the bottom line is that your presumptions, and your understanding, is just plain wrong when it comes to brake friction.

Yes, fundamentally brakes work by turning kinetic energy into heat.

How well the materials hold up to that heat, and how much material is abraded away under each stop, is going to vary depending on the materials involved.

That’s engineering, not physics.

I am happy to discuss physics at your convenience, but I’ve got several hundred thousand miles experience with the pads in question, and I’m here to tell you, they have a LOT less dust.

 

[4WD]

You make a lot of assumptions, and even toss a few insults in there, but the bottom line is that your presumptions, and your understanding, is just plain wrong when it comes to brake friction.

Yes, fundamentally brakes work by turning kinetic energy into heat.

How well the materials hold up to that heat, and how much material is abraded away under each stop, is going to vary depending on the materials involved.

That’s engineering, not physics.

I am happy to discuss physics at your convenience, but I’ve got several hundred thousand miles experience with the pads in question, and I’m here to tell you, they have a LOT less dust.

^^^ What ceramics are known for ^^^

 

[Cujet]

Yes, ceramic brake pads do not stop as well as semi-metallic brake pads. But the difference is nowhere near the overexaggerated extent you elude to

The better Semi Metallic pads outperform conventional (low end) ceramics by a wide margin. In normal driving, a typical driver may not notice. (any of the better OEM's that choose ceramics, the swept area is increased by 25 to 33% when compared to the Semi Metallic) But when towing a 24 foot fishing boat, for example, ceramics "may" result in the inability to stop from speed, for a sudden red light and rolling into the intersection. The critical point is high temperature, high load friction.

In the end, I like Carbotech XP-8 pads better than anything else. Righteous stopping power, modest dust, low (but not no) noise. They are NOT rated, but the friction specs put them squarely at an HH rating.

After suffering 220K miles with various "name brand" ceramic pads in my Jag X-Type, I finally went to Wagner Semi Metallics with a GG rating, and quite simply, they are utterly fantastic for my spirited driving. Head and shoulders above the ceramic pads.

As always, quality pads have relatively accurate ratings.

 

[RaymondP]

Timely discussion. Spent most of yesterday cleaning the wheels on my BMW 3 series. Not an easy task, but ultimately rewarding. These are stock BMW MSport brakes and pads (Brembo) that seem to create significant black dust, although happy with their performance. Based on the remaining thickness of the pads I will need to replace them in the Fall. Been doing some research. It seems like ceramics are the way to go to optimize compromises between performance and dust. Top of my list is the Hawk Ceramic pads. Let me know if you have had experience with these? Have used EBC Red Stuff (road) and Yellow Stuff (track), but NOT on the BMW. Have not tried Akebono Ceramics yet. Both of the EBC pads generated a significant amount of dust so exploring options.

 

[BMW Dom]

Timely discussion. Spent most of yesterday cleaning the wheels on my BMW 3 series. Not an easy task, but ultimately rewarding. These are stock BMW MSport brakes and pads (Brembo) that seem to create significant black dust, although happy with their performance. Based on the remaining thickness of the pads I will need to replace them in the Fall. Been doing some research. It seems like ceramics are the way to go to optimize compromises between performance and dust. Top of my list is the Hawk Ceramic pads. Let me know if you have had experience with these? Have used EBC Red Stuff (road) and Yellow Stuff (track), but NOT on the BMW. Have not tried Akebono Ceramics yet. Both of the EBC pads generated a significant amount of dust so exploring options.

I’ll update on how I feel about the Akebonos on mine.

My brake pads squeak so loud, I can even hear it with my music on and everything.

Although, the grab and feel is very good!

 

[UG_Passat]

I've seen a few of you plump for Akebono pads... this because of their claim for low-dust?

"I hate dust!" they cry.

Should I worry? How can that be right? When I went to school friction was a factor of force not area, and its by-product was wear. If these pads reduce the dust, they reduce the wear too. Thus less friction. There's no free-lunch in Physics.
Or they're so hard, they require greater force to produce the same friction. If this wasn't a fundamental law of Physics, Acmebonehead could claim the world's first 100 million mile dustless pad, sell us Acmebonehead pads for life, and have it done. No dust, no wear, no friction.

I'm quite prepared to be called the fool here, yes really...

Is this me? Should I go back to class with a 3/10 for iffy homework. I mean I ask you, do you really want someone who lets that claim go past them, namely a Acmebonehead customer on the same road as you?

Engineers have their trade secrets called black magic.

 

[UG_Passat]

Timely discussion. Spent most of yesterday cleaning the wheels on my BMW 3 series. Not an easy task, but ultimately rewarding. These are stock BMW MSport brakes and pads (Brembo) that seem to create significant black dust, although happy with their performance. Based on the remaining thickness of the pads I will need to replace them in the Fall. Been doing some research. It seems like ceramics are the way to go to optimize compromises between performance and dust. Top of my list is the Hawk Ceramic pads. Let me know if you have had experience with these? Have used EBC Red Stuff (road) and Yellow Stuff (track), but NOT on the BMW. Have not tried Akebono Ceramics yet. Both of the EBC pads generated a significant amount of dust so exploring options.

Don't the M-sport rotors have drilled and/or slotted rotors?

If so, then that's why. Drilled/slotted rotors will make low dust pads into dusty pads.

 

[The Critic]

If so, then that's why. Drilled/slotted rotors will make low dust pads into dusty pads.

Cheese grater effect.

 

[RaymondP]

Some BMW MSport rotors are drilled and/or slotted, but NOT all. Mine (BMW 328i manual trans.) are smooth. For track use I have benefitted from slotted rotors for cooling, but NOT drilled. Yes, I believe there is a cheese grating effect that will reduce life of pads on drilled rotors. Best solution for longevity of rotors is to buy cryo-treated. Not smoke and mirrors. Found it to increase rotor life by two to three times. Would recommend if tracking the car which tends to be very hard on brakes. For regular road use, including "spirited" driving, smooth quality rotors are fine.

Agreed they do look cool, but you are paying extra for them and won't gain much for regular driving.

 

[ProbeGT]

I just inspected my front OEM Toyota pads (made by Akebono I believe) with 55,000 miles on them. They produce no visible dust, are super quiet and do not seem to be too abrasive as the EBC rotors still look new (no warping, no grooves, no ridge). I'd say the pads have 60% life left in them. Unbelievable engineering. I just lubricated the pins and shims and re-installed.

 

[The Critic]

I just inspected my front OEM Toyota pads (made by Akebono I believe) with 55,000 miles on them. They produce no visible dust, are super quiet and do not seem to be too abrasive as the EBC rotors still look new (no warping, no grooves, no ridge). I'd say the pads have 60% life left in them. Unbelievable engineering. I just lubricated the pins and shims and re-installed.

Advics, not Akebono.

Very few Toyota pads are made by Akebono now.

 

[ProbeGT]

Advics, not Akebono.

Very few Toyota pads are made by Akebono now.

Good to know. Around when did Toyota switch suppliers? These pads are from 2010.

 

[The Critic]

Good to know. Around when did Toyota switch suppliers? These pads are from 2010.

Pop up the shims and you'll see the mfg stamped onto the backing plate. Most of the stuff from the late 2000's and later have been Advics.