Most small air cooled engines do not have an oil pump that supplies oil pressure to bearings and these aluminum engines run a wide ranges of temperatures and the internal parts experience a wide range of stresses and clearances. They warm up very quickly, in just minutes and a straight weight oil just makes better sense. The benefits of multigrade oil may be momentary at best. We have a bunch of Honda engines on water pumps and run them on 30w diesel grade oil with good results. The problem is that many other oils might also give good results, too. Modern 30w synthetic oils are like single grade oils that just happen to pass the specs for multigrade oil. At home I use Red Line 5w-30 because I have it for other vehicles and it works well.
Advantages of using SAE 30?
- Thread starter exranger06
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I'm going to add what was told to me last week when I called Kawasaki and spoke with a tech rep. . He said " use a straight 30 weight lawn mower oil, not automotive oil" in my mower with a 29hp liquid cooled Kawasaki engine. He said there is a special "anti-foaming" package in lawn mower oil that is not in automobile oil. He also said if I used Kawasaki oil, Kawasaki will double my engine warranty. See link to this offer.
http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/doublewarranty.asp
http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/doublewarranty.asp
I think 50hrs OCI for an engine without oil filter and water cooling is way too long. If you are considering multi- vs single weight, I would first consider tighter intervals.
If it is a larger engine with cooling and filter, you would use more automobile reasoning.
If it is a larger engine with cooling and filter, you would use more automobile reasoning.
USAir man: it's kind of tough not to take Kawasaki up on their offer and just use a straight 30-weight. One other engine manufacturer has the same offer, though I don't remember which one it is.
Regardless as to whether it's a "multi-" or "straight weight," is the Kawasaki oil dino or a full-syn?
Regardless as to whether it's a "multi-" or "straight weight," is the Kawasaki oil dino or a full-syn?
Not sure lars.
I've often heard of anti-foaming packages in hydraulic oil but not engine oil. But the rep was fairly adamant about not using an automotive oil because of the lack of an anti-foaming package.
I've often heard of anti-foaming packages in hydraulic oil but not engine oil. But the rep was fairly adamant about not using an automotive oil because of the lack of an anti-foaming package.
Anti-foaming agents are a part of the standard additive package for motor vehicle oil.
BITOG Reference Pages
BITOG Reference Pages
So I must assume there is more anti-foam agent in a lawn mower specific oil. I would have thought a 29hp twin cylinder liquid cooled engine would have used a multi-weight automotive oil, but Kawasaki says NO.
Well if Kawasaki says no then it simplifies the solution, doesnt it?
But generally when we speak of the recommendations for mowers, the straight SAE30 is not required to be "lawn mower specific" so there should not be any extra anti foaming stuff in it. Again, Kawa may have some own specific requirements.
But generally when we speak of the recommendations for mowers, the straight SAE30 is not required to be "lawn mower specific" so there should not be any extra anti foaming stuff in it. Again, Kawa may have some own specific requirements.
This is just all [censored].
I used to ride a motorcycle and the same question was asked: What is so special about MC oil as opposed to standard oil for cars???? Early on I actually bought a semi-synth MC oil for $10/qt!?!?!? (before BITOG of course
Well no one could really give a proper answer besides the single difference being moly that can cause MC clutch to slip (MCs use the same engine oil for wet clutch). Thus the *main* difference was higher prices based on MC labeling, claiming that oil is specially domulated for bikes.
I learned that the plain HD oil used for diesel engine works just fine in motorcycles and saved a bunch of money by never buying MC specific oil ever agan.
So this is the same thinkg. Kawi dealer will make some fake claim about some supposedly "important" difference or won't even try to explain why cheaper car oils don't work for lawnmowers. Most of the time this specialty oils are very similar or have minor differences like straight wt, but command a much higher price.
I think you are looking at this backwards. Oil choice comes at the end. Start with looknig at you duty cycle.
For instance,
I have a Kohler Commander 16hp, doing about 2hr/mowing runs at moderate temps (max 30C) and moderate load, plus many short runs when hauling wood and other stuff. It does about 50 hr/season, has a filter (changed every other season) - per schedule.
So I would call this a moderate duty cycle = multi-vis
Since my duty cycle is moderate I will use a plain car multi-vis oil. No need for straight 30. I try to use a 5W30 sprint/fall and 15W40 during summer. These are both in the manual.
Now consider a contractor in TX:
ambient 40C, longer 3-4hr mowing runs, etc. This would be a heavy duty cycle so straight 30 or even straight 40 would be a better choice.
When wour vendor or manual recommends ONLY a single or 2 grades then they are simply being lazy. The fact is that for different duty cycles, different use patterns there are different oil types that best fit them. There is a big difference between a contractor pushing a machine hard every day and an average Joe doing occasional mowing at low load.
So forget about oil and consider your needs 1st. Then match oil type to your needs. For some it is straight 30. For me in Canada straight 30 is too much (colder climate).
I used to ride a motorcycle and the same question was asked: What is so special about MC oil as opposed to standard oil for cars???? Early on I actually bought a semi-synth MC oil for $10/qt!?!?!? (before BITOG of course
Well no one could really give a proper answer besides the single difference being moly that can cause MC clutch to slip (MCs use the same engine oil for wet clutch). Thus the *main* difference was higher prices based on MC labeling, claiming that oil is specially domulated for bikes.
I learned that the plain HD oil used for diesel engine works just fine in motorcycles and saved a bunch of money by never buying MC specific oil ever agan.
So this is the same thinkg. Kawi dealer will make some fake claim about some supposedly "important" difference or won't even try to explain why cheaper car oils don't work for lawnmowers. Most of the time this specialty oils are very similar or have minor differences like straight wt, but command a much higher price.
I think you are looking at this backwards. Oil choice comes at the end. Start with looknig at you duty cycle.
For instance,
I have a Kohler Commander 16hp, doing about 2hr/mowing runs at moderate temps (max 30C) and moderate load, plus many short runs when hauling wood and other stuff. It does about 50 hr/season, has a filter (changed every other season) - per schedule.
So I would call this a moderate duty cycle = multi-vis
Since my duty cycle is moderate I will use a plain car multi-vis oil. No need for straight 30. I try to use a 5W30 sprint/fall and 15W40 during summer. These are both in the manual.
Now consider a contractor in TX:
ambient 40C, longer 3-4hr mowing runs, etc. This would be a heavy duty cycle so straight 30 or even straight 40 would be a better choice.
When wour vendor or manual recommends ONLY a single or 2 grades then they are simply being lazy. The fact is that for different duty cycles, different use patterns there are different oil types that best fit them. There is a big difference between a contractor pushing a machine hard every day and an average Joe doing occasional mowing at low load.
So forget about oil and consider your needs 1st. Then match oil type to your needs. For some it is straight 30. For me in Canada straight 30 is too much (colder climate).
So, assuming you did want to use SAE 30, would you want SL or SM for a B&S powered device?
(I have the option of either at my local parts store)
(I have the option of either at my local parts store)
The lead mechanic at a large commercial mower dealer said they use Kohler SAE30 engine oil 90% of the time. He also concurred about the anti-foaming package in mower oil. He said that small engines tend to cavitate oil easier and the anti-foam package helps prevent cavitation.
Magnum SAE-30
KOHLER Magnum universal oil provides instant lubrication while providing full protection at operating temperatures.
Extremely resistant to viscosity shearing.
Ensures maximum performance & extends engine life.
Exceeds API service rating SJ as well as MIL-2104E & MIL-L-46152, Mack E/O, K/X, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins NTC 400 and Allison C-4.
Designed for use in all KOHLER Magnum and K-series engines.
Magnum SAE-30
KOHLER Magnum universal oil provides instant lubrication while providing full protection at operating temperatures.
Extremely resistant to viscosity shearing.
Ensures maximum performance & extends engine life.
Exceeds API service rating SJ as well as MIL-2104E & MIL-L-46152, Mack E/O, K/X, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins NTC 400 and Allison C-4.
Designed for use in all KOHLER Magnum and K-series engines.
Originally Posted By: airbusdrvr
The lead mechanic at a large commercial mower dealer said they use Kohler SAE30 engine oil 90% of the time. He also concurred about the anti-foaming package in mower oil. He said that small engines tend to cavitate oil easier and the anti-foam package helps prevent cavitation.
Magnum SAE-30
KOHLER Magnum universal oil provides instant lubrication while providing full protection at operating temperatures.
Extremely resistant to viscosity shearing.
Ensures maximum performance & extends engine life.
Exceeds API service rating SJ as well as MIL-2104E & MIL-L-46152, Mack E/O, K/X, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins NTC 400 and Allison C-4.
Designed for use in all KOHLER Magnum and K-series engines.
FWIW - In some Kohler engine Kohler recommends a 10w30.
Here is what they had to say from their FAQ page:
http://www.kohlerengines.com/service/faq.html#faq2
The lead mechanic at a large commercial mower dealer said they use Kohler SAE30 engine oil 90% of the time. He also concurred about the anti-foaming package in mower oil. He said that small engines tend to cavitate oil easier and the anti-foam package helps prevent cavitation.
Magnum SAE-30
KOHLER Magnum universal oil provides instant lubrication while providing full protection at operating temperatures.
Extremely resistant to viscosity shearing.
Ensures maximum performance & extends engine life.
Exceeds API service rating SJ as well as MIL-2104E & MIL-L-46152, Mack E/O, K/X, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins NTC 400 and Allison C-4.
Designed for use in all KOHLER Magnum and K-series engines.
FWIW - In some Kohler engine Kohler recommends a 10w30.
Here is what they had to say from their FAQ page:
http://www.kohlerengines.com/service/faq.html#faq2
Thats true as long as its KOHLER 10w30 oil.
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Warm-up is generally unnecessary in small air cooled lawn-mower type engines because they have a splash oiling system, not pumped. One or two revolutions, regardless of oil temperature, and everything that needs to be lubed is being lubed. This is why it's foolish to run multi-grade oils in lawn-mower type engines. A mono-grade oil is a more robust oil than a multi-grade, putting more oil between the moving parts. Then too, multi-grade oils shear down, then slip past the rings and carbon up the combustion chamber (much more than a mono-grade oil).
My 3-hp Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine is over 35 years old. I bought the lawnmower used in 1978 (I think it was about five years old at the time) and had to replace the deck which rotted out about 10 years ago (picked up a throw-away from a lawnmower shop for a few dollars). Engine's still going strong although it's getting a little harder to start. Usta run it on 20W-50 because that's what I usta run in my car all the time. Then switched to mono-grade SAE-30 about 10 years ago like all the small engine owner's manuals say to do.
My mower runs about 30-40 minutes once a week, summer and winter. If it ever starts to smoke, I'll start running it on SAE-40 mono-grade. It holds little over 1/2-quart, and I change it twice a year (approximately every 15 operating hours) without adding any oil between changes.
My 3-hp Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine is over 35 years old. I bought the lawnmower used in 1978 (I think it was about five years old at the time) and had to replace the deck which rotted out about 10 years ago (picked up a throw-away from a lawnmower shop for a few dollars). Engine's still going strong although it's getting a little harder to start. Usta run it on 20W-50 because that's what I usta run in my car all the time. Then switched to mono-grade SAE-30 about 10 years ago like all the small engine owner's manuals say to do.
My mower runs about 30-40 minutes once a week, summer and winter. If it ever starts to smoke, I'll start running it on SAE-40 mono-grade. It holds little over 1/2-quart, and I change it twice a year (approximately every 15 operating hours) without adding any oil between changes.
Gary, your mower lives an easy life and your maintenance plan is perfect.
Gary: I don't disagree about your lube comments, but I'm not sure that I'd agree that warmup is never necessary.
There's still the issue of metal expansion/contraction and pieces fitting together in the proper manner. I seem to recall that air cooled cylinders in particular are elliptical when cold and only become round (to match the piston) when warmed.
I warm my OPE up depending on ambient weather conditions and feedback from the machine itself. My 2003 Echo trimmer is tempermental when cold without some warm up, it four strokes a lot and has trouble throttling up when cold no matter how the limited adjustments on the EPA carb are set. My 2003 Honda Masters mower runs lean (emissions) and has noticeable trouble spinning up the blade when the clutch is engaged depending on how cold it is outside without some warmup (30 seconds is often enough). My 1986 Toro snowthrower always gets a warmup until it runs well with no choke and the exhaust gases feel hot (1-2 minutes?) because it's always sub-freezing when I run it and it works REALLY hard.
It's odd considering the above that I'm a start-it-and-drive-gently believer for my road cars, but they aren't air cooled. However, OPE often doesn't have the choice to be used "gently" - you're either at operating speed or not - throwing snow or not - generating power or not etc...
On OPE oil - if going multiweight it should be very shear stable. I used to use M1 10W30 (may actually have no VIIs) but now use Amsoil ASE (guaranteed no VIIs) in my summer gear. My winter gear gets GC.
There's still the issue of metal expansion/contraction and pieces fitting together in the proper manner. I seem to recall that air cooled cylinders in particular are elliptical when cold and only become round (to match the piston) when warmed.
I warm my OPE up depending on ambient weather conditions and feedback from the machine itself. My 2003 Echo trimmer is tempermental when cold without some warm up, it four strokes a lot and has trouble throttling up when cold no matter how the limited adjustments on the EPA carb are set. My 2003 Honda Masters mower runs lean (emissions) and has noticeable trouble spinning up the blade when the clutch is engaged depending on how cold it is outside without some warmup (30 seconds is often enough). My 1986 Toro snowthrower always gets a warmup until it runs well with no choke and the exhaust gases feel hot (1-2 minutes?) because it's always sub-freezing when I run it and it works REALLY hard.
It's odd considering the above that I'm a start-it-and-drive-gently believer for my road cars, but they aren't air cooled. However, OPE often doesn't have the choice to be used "gently" - you're either at operating speed or not - throwing snow or not - generating power or not etc...
On OPE oil - if going multiweight it should be very shear stable. I used to use M1 10W30 (may actually have no VIIs) but now use Amsoil ASE (guaranteed no VIIs) in my summer gear. My winter gear gets GC.
I have some generators and have wired one for warmup before loading and one not. Over 20 years there has been no difference in wear noted, including tearing down both engines for re work over the years. A warm up is a good idea but these engines actually warmup more evenly under load.
Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Warm-up is generally unnecessary in small air cooled lawn-mower type engines because they have a splash oiling system, not pumped. One or two revolutions, regardless of oil temperature, and everything that needs to be lubed is being lubed. This is why it's foolish to run multi-grade oils in lawn-mower type engines. A mono-grade oil is a more robust oil than a multi-grade, putting more oil between the moving parts. Then too, multi-grade oils shear down, then slip past the rings and carbon up the combustion chamber (much more than a mono-grade oil).
Can you show me where it says that your average SAE30 out there holds viscosity better than a synthetic multi-grade oil? Just curious, have been looking around on this, lately.
Warm-up is generally unnecessary in small air cooled lawn-mower type engines because they have a splash oiling system, not pumped. One or two revolutions, regardless of oil temperature, and everything that needs to be lubed is being lubed. This is why it's foolish to run multi-grade oils in lawn-mower type engines. A mono-grade oil is a more robust oil than a multi-grade, putting more oil between the moving parts. Then too, multi-grade oils shear down, then slip past the rings and carbon up the combustion chamber (much more than a mono-grade oil).
Can you show me where it says that your average SAE30 out there holds viscosity better than a synthetic multi-grade oil? Just curious, have been looking around on this, lately.
Originally Posted By: Jaymus
Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Warm-up is generally unnecessary in small air cooled lawn-mower type engines because they have a splash oiling system, not pumped. One or two revolutions, regardless of oil temperature, and everything that needs to be lubed is being lubed. This is why it's foolish to run multi-grade oils in lawn-mower type engines. A mono-grade oil is a more robust oil than a multi-grade, putting more oil between the moving parts. Then too, multi-grade oils shear down, then slip past the rings and carbon up the combustion chamber (much more than a mono-grade oil).
Can you show me where it says that your average SAE30 out there holds viscosity better than a synthetic multi-grade oil? Just curious, have been looking around on this, lately.
Viscosity reduction due to shearing occurs strictly because VIIs are torn apart through the action of the engine. If there are no VIIs - there is no shearing hence no thinning of the oil. A straight-weight SAE30 has no VIIs, so won't shear, so won't thin due to shearing. It should be noted that there are synthetic oils with no VIIs that obtain multi-weight ratings through the use of high quality base stocks. Amsoil ASE is an example.
Thinning due to fuel dilution, water ingress, or other contamination is completely independent of this and may not vary based on multi-weight or single weight, but may vary based on additive pack and the ability to cope with contaminants.
Originally Posted By: Gary in Sandy Eggo
Warm-up is generally unnecessary in small air cooled lawn-mower type engines because they have a splash oiling system, not pumped. One or two revolutions, regardless of oil temperature, and everything that needs to be lubed is being lubed. This is why it's foolish to run multi-grade oils in lawn-mower type engines. A mono-grade oil is a more robust oil than a multi-grade, putting more oil between the moving parts. Then too, multi-grade oils shear down, then slip past the rings and carbon up the combustion chamber (much more than a mono-grade oil).
Can you show me where it says that your average SAE30 out there holds viscosity better than a synthetic multi-grade oil? Just curious, have been looking around on this, lately.
Viscosity reduction due to shearing occurs strictly because VIIs are torn apart through the action of the engine. If there are no VIIs - there is no shearing hence no thinning of the oil. A straight-weight SAE30 has no VIIs, so won't shear, so won't thin due to shearing. It should be noted that there are synthetic oils with no VIIs that obtain multi-weight ratings through the use of high quality base stocks. Amsoil ASE is an example.
Thinning due to fuel dilution, water ingress, or other contamination is completely independent of this and may not vary based on multi-weight or single weight, but may vary based on additive pack and the ability to cope with contaminants.
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Yes, but then, the question comes... and no I am not arguing, just trying to get all the facts, and only the facts... but the question comes, will these small engines even break an oil down? I feel like saying yes, because they are air-cooled. They operate under a load most of the time, also.
Let's say they do shear oil easily. I'm sure a 5w-30 conventional oil would be sheared. But would a synthetic oil shear as easily? Would a synthetic oil, like GC, even shear?
I mean, if I see that GC or Rotella 5w-40 is going to shear where an SAE30 won't shear, then I'll just suck it up and run some straight 30 in my weed-eater.
Oh, and this reminds me of a question that would answer most of this, anyways, or help to choose a good oil for an air-cooled engine. Is there a list anywhere, or how can I find out, which oils use VII's, and how much do they use?
Let's say they do shear oil easily. I'm sure a 5w-30 conventional oil would be sheared. But would a synthetic oil shear as easily? Would a synthetic oil, like GC, even shear?
I mean, if I see that GC or Rotella 5w-40 is going to shear where an SAE30 won't shear, then I'll just suck it up and run some straight 30 in my weed-eater.
Oh, and this reminds me of a question that would answer most of this, anyways, or help to choose a good oil for an air-cooled engine. Is there a list anywhere, or how can I find out, which oils use VII's, and how much do they use?
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