[MNgopher]

I think that Patman is coming fom the same perspective I am. We haven't seen an oil analysis that has looked bad using the 5w20 oils yet. For the most part, they have all looked pretty good, if not better than what 5w30 has offered in many applications.

Metroplex is unwavering in his opinion regarding 5w20 oils, and thats fine. It is interesting to note that he does use one of the thinnest 5w30's out there in Mobil One.

Oil analysis like was posted is the best way to see what the oils are doing. I too will be eager to see the Mobil 1 0w20 hit the market, and will probably do some testing in one of my F150s to see how it works!

Much of this debate is very similar to when 5w30 oils came on the market. Many folks swore they would never use the stuff, and here we are over a decade later without engines siezing everywhere due to 5w30 oils. Go figure...

 

[Ron Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MNgopher:
I think that Patman is coming fom the same perspective I am. We haven't seen an oil analysis that has looked bad using the 5w20 oils yet. For the most part, they have all looked pretty good, if not better than what 5w30 has offered in many applications.

Metroplex is unwavering in his opinion regarding 5w20 oils, and thats fine. It is interesting to note that he does use one of the thinnest 5w30's out there in Mobil One.

Oil analysis like was posted is the best way to see what the oils are doing. I too will be eager to see the Mobil 1 0w20 hit the market, and will probably do some testing in one of my F150s to see how it works!

Much of this debate is very similar to when 5w30 oils came on the market. Many folks swore they would never use the stuff, and here we are over a decade later without engines siezing everywhere due to 5w30 oils. Go figure...

---

Gopher, I completely disagree. The motivation behind the change from 5W-30 to 5W-20 and the change from 10W-30 to 5W-30 are completely different. The change to 5W-20 is so that you experience a 0.005% increase in fuel enonomy and Ford's CAFE rating increases. You may recall that GM changed to 5W-30 because their pick-up trucks were having enormous cam bearing failures due to dry start-ups in cold weather. I, myself ruined some cam bearings in a 1980's Dodge 2.2L engine due to using 10W-30 in frigid temps. In ultra cold temps. you can tell the difference between 10W-30 and 5W-30 as soon as you turnover the engine. This debate doesn't mean much to those in mild climates, but it is paramount in cold weather.
Until someone finds a material problem with 5W-30, I see no reason to give up that extra measure of protection that you receive in very hot or heavily loaded situations.

 

[Fred Hammond]

Thanks everybody for replying. Apparently the 5w20 oil subject is wide open for debate. It will be about 6 weeks for my truck comes in. Any break-in advice would be welcomed. I was thinking that between 500-1000 mi. would be a good time for the 1st oil change. The 2nd change would be when the odometer showed 3000 miles. Then change the oil every 3000 until an analysis proved out the better oil. At what mileage is a good time to start submitting samples for analysis? Should I be concerned about getting a TBN with the 3000 mi. interval? At what PPM and what metals determines when the oil is becoming abrasive. Can someone give me a quick primer on viscosity calculations or send me to a site where I can review. I had fluid mechanics about 23 years ago, but that was a very long time ago. I interested in learning more about the true viscosity of M1 5w30 (virgin) and how viscosity is reduced with wear.

Sorry for so many questions, as always, I appreciate your comments and feedback. Fred

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron Jeremy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patman:
Don't worry, when more 5w20 results come in, we'll convince Metroplex that this oil doesn't spell death for the internal combustion engine!

---

Patman, with all due respect, why do you extol the virtues of 5W-20? You quite often recommend 10W-30 over 5W-30. BTW, this is not a critisism, just curious.

---

It is a good question actually. I have ragged on 5w30 in the past, and it was mainly because of the extra VI improvers and the fact that it seemed a lot of 5w30s would thin out in hard use while 10w30 didn't. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem anymore with the new SuperSyn, and Amsoil 5w30 has never had a problem with thinning anyways. So I'm starting to realize that 5w30 oil is not so bad, and may even try it out myself in my Firebird.

As far as 5w20 goes, I hated it too when I first heard about it, but after seeing the good results, and after looking more closely at how little difference in viscosity there is between a 5w20 and many 5w30 synthetics out there, I've changed my mind. With 5w20 it would need even less VII too, so in theory the 5w20 should remain rock solid in it's viscosity and not thin out at all. So those that worry that it might turn into an even thinner oil are worrying for nothing, most likely.

I will admit I'd like to see more data on very hard driven V8s using 5w20 before I'd feel confident putting it in my Firebird, but I still wouldn't feel it would hurt my wife's Honda. If Royal Purple had sent me 5w20 instead of 5w30 for free I would have no hesitation running it in her car for a while.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fred Hammond:
Thanks everybody for replying. Apparently the 5w20 oil subject is wide open for debate. It will be about 6 weeks for my truck comes in. Any break-in advice would be welcomed. I was thinking that between 500-1000 mi. would be a good time for the 1st oil change. The 2nd change would be when the odometer showed 3000 miles. Then change the oil every 3000 until an analysis proved out the better oil. At what mileage is a good time to start submitting samples for analysis? Should I be concerned about getting a TBN with the 3000 mi. interval? At what PPM and what metals determines when the oil is becoming abrasive. Can someone give me a quick primer on viscosity calculations or send me to a site where I can review. I had fluid mechanics about 23 years ago, but that was a very long time ago. I interested in learning more about the true viscosity of M1 5w30 (virgin) and how viscosity is reduced with wear.

Sorry for so many questions, as always, I appreciate your comments and feedback. Fred

---

Fred, your questions are excellent and are bringing up a good discussion here, keep em coming!

You can sumbit samples for analysis at any time, I'd do it right from the beginning however if you wanted to wait until the 3k mark that would also be ok. The first few thousand miles will end up with more wear metals than normal in the oil that's all.

If you're going to do a 3k interval then TBN isn't really all that important of a value to have, so don't pay extra for it. TBN is more important if you're going to do extended drains. Even with a 5k interval TBN isn't super important, although if that particular oil was run over a longer period (such as a year) then TBN is a good thing to know to see if the oil is being taxed too much (such as my mom's Mobil 1 oil sample which only had 5k on it but was 10 months old and the TBN was below 5, while my wife's Mobil 1 sample with 5k and 7 months showed a much better TBN of 9)

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Quote by Patman:

"I have ragged on 5w30 in the past, and it was mainly because of the extra VI improvers and the fact that it seemed a lot of 5w30s would thin out in hard use while 10w30 didn't. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem anymore with the new SuperSyn, and Amsoil 5w30 has never had a problem with thinning anyways. So I'm starting to realize that 5w30 oil is not so bad, and may even try it out myself in my Firebird."

This begs another question. Aren't most of the top tier synthetic 5W-30's (or 10W-30's for that matter) basically free of VI improvers?

[ January 01, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Ron Jeremy ]

 

[mdv]

Everyone keeps mentioning good results from 5W-20. Most of the results I remember seeing where for drain intervals of less than 3K miles. The notable exception I believe was Castrol's 5W-20. What good is the oil if it can't make it to 3k miles. Even if I used conventional oils, I still wouldn't want to constantly be under the car changing the oil. I may rethink everything when Synergen or Mobil 1 0W-20 results start comig in, but right now I don't want anything to do with 20 wt. oils. Too much of a PITA.

My .02
Edit: Typing

[ January 01, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: mdv ]

 

[Patman]

The only way I see it being harmful doing a test like this would be to run the 20wt oil blindly for thousands of miles without oil analysis.

If you run shorter intervals at first, or take samples partway through, you'll see if you're getting too much engine wear. And if you're not, then it's a safe bet that your engine won't wear out sooner at all.

 

[metroplex]

Ford switched from 5W-30 to 5W-20 for the same engine - think about it.

Why would 5W-30 be fine for the same engine for 10 years running then all of a sudden 5W-20 is needed?

I have a Ford van w/ the 5.4L V8 on order as well. I'll be using mobil 1 5W-30 from the very beginning.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Fred, One thing to note is that Ford does not recommend 20 wt. oil in the 4.0L engine (and one other motor, I can't remember which one...3.9L perhaps?), because their testing found excessive wear from the lighter oil. This should send up red flags. Personally, I wouldn't play along with Ford's CAFE aspirations. I agree with your "gut", I would go with a high quality 5W-30, especially considering the kind of service your rig is going to see.

 

[MNgopher]

Ron, believe me, I remember all about the debate on 5w30 vs 10w30 and 10w40 oils. Living in Minnesota, I know all about cold weather starting issues and the difference between 5w30 and 10w30 on really cold mornings, all the way down to -40 (at that point it is the same F or C). The primary issue that people had was 5w30 seemed even thinner than 10w30 oils and folks had the same feelings that they are having now about 5w20. It was too thin, and there was no way that watery stuff could perform. Time has proven that that is not the case.

Yes, there are CAFE reasons for switching to 5w20. We are all aware of that. What remains to be seen is whether 5w20 can do the same job as a 5w30 and provide the small fuel mileage increase too. Preliminary results are encouraging. Time will tell in this case too.

Anybody remember that the original formulation of Mobil 1 was 5w20?

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron Jeremy:
Quote by Patman:

"I have ragged on 5w30 in the past, and it was mainly because of the extra VI improvers and the fact that it seemed a lot of 5w30s would thin out in hard use while 10w30 didn't. This doesn't seem to be as much of a problem anymore with the new SuperSyn, and Amsoil 5w30 has never had a problem with thinning anyways. So I'm starting to realize that 5w30 oil is not so bad, and may even try it out myself in my Firebird."

This begs another question. Aren't most of the top tier synthetic 5W-30's (or 10W-30's for that matter) basically free of VI improvers?

---

No, most synthetic 5w30s still contain VII, while most 10w30s contain very little or none, which is why 10w30 works better still for long drain intervals.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdv:
Everyone keeps mentioning good results from 5W-20. Most of the results I remember seeing where for drain intervals of less than 3K miles. The notable exception I believe was Castrol's 5W-20. What good is the oil if it can't make it to 3k miles.

---

You also have to remember that so far we've not seen any results on a fully synthetic 20wt oil either. So when results on Mobil 1 0w20, Synergen 0w20 and Royal Purple 5w20 start coming in, their ability to go beyond 3k will be obvious. My point is that the wear metals on the other 5w20s so far hasn't shown this oil to be any less effective at preventing excess engine wear than 5w30 is.

 

[tenderloin]

Honda is not up against CAFE numbers...even with their van and SUV. Why are they recommending 5W-20? They have a well deserved reputation for quality, part of which is longevity. Does anyone really think Honda would throw out or risk their hard earned reputation for a drop in the bucket CAFE mileage number, their not even up against?

Or could it be with their extensive pursuit of efficiency, combined with their knowledge of pushing engines to the limit (racing) they just might know what they are doing???????

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fred Hammond:
I plan on keeping this truck forever and with proper maintance, I expect 300k-400k on this motor. Because Mobil One is readily available, I will probably use the new M1 0w20 Fred

---

My number 1 comment to you since you are interested in keeping it "forever" would be to find you a by-pass system and put it on. Then as far as oil's go, find a good 5w30 for your area of the county and use it.

Mobil 1 supersyn would work well in your application.

Some by-pass systems would be oil guard, Amsoil Dual remote, and others.

Good luck with your new truck!!

 

[Giles]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tenderloin:
Honda is not up against CAFE numbers...even with their van and SUV. Why are they recommending 5W-20? They have a well deserved reputation for quality, part of which is longevity. Does anyone really think Honda would throw out or risk their hard earned reputation for a drop in the bucket CAFE mileage number, their not even up against?

Or could it be with their extensive pursuit of efficiency, combined with their knowledge of pushing engines to the limit (racing) they just might know what they are doing???????

---

A collegue of mine get's about the same gas mileage with their Honda Pilot as I do with my Ford Explorer and they have a smaller engine. Yes, it is well under the CAFE requirement. The pilot takes 5w20 mine takes 5w30. CAFE is only getting tougher as time goes on, and I still think Honda is motivated by this because if they sell too many of these SUV's, they won't make CAFE numbers.

I for one am not saying 5w20 isn't adequate for getting an engine past the 100,000 mile mark. What I am saying is their motives are unlikely to be for making the engine last longer. It's really quite simple, do you think they would spend all of this money on testing a lighter weight oil if there wasn't a strong motivator such as CAFE?

 

[cdavidc1949]

Would you get the same start up protection from say 0w/20 or 0w/30 oil in the summer when air temp is higher compared to winter use. When the new 0w/20 Mobil 1 comes out are there any concerns using a 0 weight oil for all year use.

 

[Giles]

The only potential problem I see with using 0w year round is if it shears down in the summer. The higher winter weight eg 10w30 might hold it's viscosity better in high temperature use than a 0w30 but the formulations are typically quite different so analysis is the only way to find out. The 0w are always better for a cold start in my opinion, regardless of temperature.

 

[tenderloin]

It's really quite simple, do you think they would spend all of this money on testing a lighter weight oil if there wasn't a strong motivator such as CAFE?

My guess is that through improved technology, Ford and Honda (for starters) have recognized improved MPG and HP without sacrificing reliability (at least to THEIR way of thinking).....Just as I have.

Can I prove the engines will go 300,000 plus miles? No....

[ January 03, 2003, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]

 

[buster]

I agree, I think if the EPA did not exist, 10w-30 would still be the most common oil on the market. Pressures from government and environmentalists are ultimately driving these oils lower and lower in terms of viscosity...thats how I see it.
I remember during the presidential debates someone saying if all cars just got 3mpg more, we would save something like 3,000,000 barrels of oil per day. So this is clearly a political, security, and environmental issue that effects the auto makers.

Thanks

[ January 03, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: buster ]