5w30 in a spec 5w20

[Justin251]

I've been wondering this for my 2014 ram hemi. Some say the mds will be affected because the 2500 5.7l doesn't have mds and specs 5w30.

I'm sure the motor wouldn't know.

My hyundai specs 5w20 but says to use 5w30 or 10w30 if not available.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: deven
If your proof is that they use loose wording then that's pretty weak. You have any SAE papers stating that low viscosity oils cause more wear than thicker viscosity oils but within an "acceptable" range?
Go have at it!


Why did you only use one of my points to discredit my argument ?

Anyway.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3736770/Re:_A_tale_of_2_charts#Post3736770

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/975793/10W_vs_10W-30_vs_SAE_30_cylind

Google book that has a number of published SAE papers in it.

Another Google book with a number of published SAE papers in it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.

That's the difficulty, though. If one goes out of a certain operational spread for viscosity, be it too high or too low, there will be consequences with respect to wear.

Formulators have to adjust additive packages and come up with new technologies all the time to compensate for shortcomings in viscosity (in either direction), not to mention emissions systems, longer OCIs, and so forth. There obviously are challenges, or we'd see even lighter oils flooding the market already.

We just need to remember that there are oils that are too thick under certain circumstances and oil that are too thin under other circumstances.

 

[LubeLuke]

Originally Posted By: Garak
That's the difficulty, though. If one goes out of a certain operational spread for viscosity, be it too high or too low, there will be consequences with respect to wear.

Formulators have to adjust additive packages and come up with new technologies all the time to compensate for shortcomings in viscosity (in either direction), not to mention emissions systems, longer OCIs, and so forth. There obviously are challenges, or we'd see even lighter oils flooding the market already.

We just need to remember that there are oils that are too thick under certain circumstances and oil that are too thin under other circumstances.


You are 100% right. Which is exactly why you should use the oil specified by the manufacturer. Instead of fabricating conspiracy theories about how the manufacturers like Toyota or Honda are trying to ruin their reputation for reliability.

You have to remember that THIS thread is about putting a thicker (5w30) oil into a car that specifies 5w20 oil. According to the thread starter.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Which is exactly why you should use the oil specified by the manufacturer. Instead of fabricating conspiracy theories about how the manufacturers like Toyota or Honda are trying to ruin their reputation for reliability.


See, that's the sort of made up strawman that you lot always bring to the discussion...find anywhere where that has been offered, particularly by me. In fact find anyone on the board who has suggested that 20s lead to a pile of failed engines (another favoured strawman).

Cars go to the graveyard generally with well preserved engines...whether they could go 100,000 miles or 150,000 miles beyond that is moot...if it saves 150 gallons of fuel during that life, it's a good deal.

The manufacturers are not installing thinner oils to make your car last longer. They are not destroying it either, just optimising lifecycle costs, in a CAFE environment.

Per the NHTSA, end users undervalue economy, which is why the rules are there to maximise economy.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: sds911
Is it not also true that the 5w30 generally have more ZDDP compared to 5w20 or 0w20 for typical brands like m1, castrol, penzoil plat, etc.

So it may not just be the weight but the add packs. I'll still run 0w20, since my UOA results are good, but may increase to the 0w30 for summer or mountain driving.

I'm sure my engine will outlast my ownership of the XV cross trek. For the 911 it's 5w40 with higher ZDDP for now per some well known Porsche engine shops/developers.



No. There isn't more zddp in a 30 grade vs a 20 grade in an SN flavour.

Originally Posted By: Justin251
I've been wondering this for my 2014 ram hemi. Some say the mds will be affected because the 2500 5.7l doesn't have mds and specs 5w30.

I'm sure the motor wouldn't know.

My hyundai specs 5w20 but says to use 5w30 or 10w30 if not available.


Mds and vvt are not affected in any noticeable way. Go thicker if you want.

Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant as a whole and immediately stop listening because they are clueless

Cold oil is a hundred times thicker than hot oil yet these systems operate fine in winter,when the cold oil is at its thickest. To imply that in some way these systems won't ooerate properly is beyond absurd and shows a lack of basic info regarding hydraulic operation.
I own 2 hemis and maintain 2 more and currently using a euro 0w-40 in my charger. Everything works just fine.
In fact the mpg gauge read 29mpg driving to Regina yesterday. No wind though.
In fact I never get less than 25mpg highway. Never.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
You are 100% right. Which is exactly why you should use the oil specified by the manufacturer. Instead of fabricating conspiracy theories about how the manufacturers like Toyota or Honda are trying to ruin their reputation for reliability.

But, the manufacturers have to deal with all kinds of competing things, too. If it were up solely to the engineers, vehicles would be specifying multiple viscosities over varying temperatures. But, if that happens, you get an idiot in Saskatchewan trying to run SAE 40 or 20w-50 when it's -40 outside, and then running to the manufacturer when things go south. Or, he see that someone is running a thinner grade because of short tripping in winter conditions, and does the same thing on the highway without ever checking the dipstick.

Those in charge of warranty claims don't want to see nonsense like that. They also want to simplify maintenance, making the OLM actually useful. Marketing people also don't want to add a bunch of confusion to the mix or make a vehicle look difficult or expensive to maintain. Then, CAFE is an issue. Then, different countries also have different issues. Canadian specifications are generally identical to US specifications, aside from occasionally giving us shorter OCIs or tightening the definition of severe service.

There's a lot to be said for running the thinnest lube specified for the conditions at hand. That doesn't mean that if an engine specifies one grade under all conditions and temperatures that the engine will blow up if one goes out of specification within reason.

Incidentally, some people out there used thinner lubes to save fuel long, long before CAFE, gas guzzler taxes, and one viscosity fits all came about.

 

[LubeLuke]

I don't agree. Any self respecting engineer understands that these vehicles are driven by the public in MANY different conditions, and they would specify an oil which works for mom dropping the kids off at school in California, and then drives to Colorado for a ski trip on the same oil.
So it is no surprise that when you read the owners manual it DOES specify an oil that will work for mom in California AND the family holiday skiing in Colorado. Amazing isn't it?
Also should be noted that many owners manuals DO specify multiple viscosities over varying temperatures. My Toyota manual does this. My friends Subaru manual does this. My friends Mitsubishi manual does this.

I'm not sure that there is any real point to either of these posts (mine or yours). Both are as idiotic as the other.

I should note that my engineer recommends one oil for me to use for daily driving, and another for track or race use. As he has said himself. Using one for the other should not cause any immediate damage either way.

 

[Shannow]

your "engineer"...do you mean "engine builder" ... there's a difference.

And clearly, he's not advocating one size fits all for both applications, but suggesting that each are sub-optimal in the other application but won't cause immediate catastrophic failure...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
An engine dynamometer is used most of the time by my engineer.
All that needs to happen is decide on a set rpm for the engine and hold the engine there for a set period of time. A decrease in engine load will require less fuel.


Very funny. What KrisZ was talking about was the variability of dynos in general. They are not absolutely accurate at all and vary a lot!

And I sure wish I had my own "engineer".

Guys, we are being played like fiddles here...

 

[LubeLuke]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
your "engineer"...do you mean "engine builder" ... there's a difference.

I think he qualifies as an engineer. After all he does have an engineering degree. He has also been the 'engineer' behind a number of national winning rally cars. Through his credentials he also acquired position of technical director for a factory team, which he held for some time (5+ years).
He is an engineer and engine builder, amongst many things. Engineer being that he specifies materials, clearances, parts for the engine, and builder in that he physically puts the pieces together and does the bolts up.

Really what he is or does is irrelevant here. He works with some top specialists, for engines, suspension, and general chassis' setups.
On the engine that he build, I trust his choice in oils as it is no longer to the specifications of Toyota.

*Edit* I understand that there are literally thousands of people worldwide that have credentials to equal or better his. But I do not have the liberty of consulting with these other people. So I take the advice I can get.

 

[Shannow]

And yet, he specs a different oil for different uses of exactly the same engine (i.e. yours that he built)

edit...so what happens when you use the wrong oil in the wrong scenario ?

Obviously not catastrophic loss of reliability.

Is he hinting at suboptimal protection ?

 

[LubeLuke]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
An engine dynamometer is used most of the time by my engineer.
All that needs to happen is decide on a set rpm for the engine and hold the engine there for a set period of time. A decrease in engine load will require less fuel.


Very funny. What KrisZ was talking about was the variability of dynos in general. They are not absolutely accurate at all and vary a lot!

And I sure wish I had my own "engineer".

Guys, we are being played like fiddles here...


Yes. Cheap dynos can absolutely display different results, even when tests are repeated consecutively. But even then they usually only vary a couple of percent at most.
Engine dynamometers tend to be a lot more accurate than tyre or hub dynos, from my experience.
I think the biggest difference comes from the fact that most dynamometer testing is not done to a specific standard. Dynamometers from different companies do tend to vary a lot in the reported results.

From what I have seen my 'engineers' dynamometer seems to be very accurate. Enough to report the larger differences measured from different oils anyway.

search google or youtube for independent tests that show an obvious difference between oils on tyre dynamometers.

*edit* Yes Shannow. That is correct.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Well the whole purpose of a lighter oil seems to be for improved fuel economy, without increased wear.
The people against the lighter oils are claiming increased wear, without any proof though.

I don't have the resources to provide any personal testing myself.


Luke, I was replying to the original post, why dont you re-read it.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
I think we are going round in circles.
It can be proved that lighter oils increase fuel economy.

'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the xW20 oils.
'We' cannot prove that these engines experience increased wear from the heavier oils.


So your answer to the original post is the same as mine, the one, you know, you seemed to question and started a whole new discussion. It will not make a difference if the person uses a /30 oil that he can buy on sale vs the recommended /20 oil in his manual.

(btw, in a 4 ball wear test, you can prove a thicker film oil will produce slightly less wear but we are not talking about the subject here and not talking about an engine having the same result.)

Click here and go to page 13

You can compare 2 or 3 oils from the same company, you will see a tiny bit less wear on /50 oils compared to /40 oils from the same company. The internet is your friend, use it.

 

[LubeLuke]

Not exactly. The original post asks about a 5w30 oil in a vehicle that specifies 5w20 and is still under warranty.
Quote "Would you put it in a 5w20 still under warranty?".

My reply to the original post is that I would not. Why don't you re-read it (the original post).

 

[Shannow]

LubeLuke, so how is your pet engineer relevant ?

or most of post 3737632 and beyond, before you try to drag it back ?

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: deven
If your proof is that they use loose wording then that's pretty weak. You have any SAE papers stating that low viscosity oils cause more wear than thicker viscosity oils but within an "acceptable" range?
Go have at it!


Why did you only use one of my points to discredit my argument ?

Anyway.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3736770/Re:_A_tale_of_2_charts#Post3736770

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/975793/10W_vs_10W-30_vs_SAE_30_cylind

Google book that has a number of published SAE papers in it.

Another Google book with a number of published SAE papers in it.

If you had other points I missed them. I think there needs to be newer studies done( probably already have obviously)since the popularity of 0w20 oils in many mfgs specifications.
I'm a thick oil guy myself but I also believe that lighter oils will protect equally as well as long as the engine is in sound condition.

 

[sds911]

Clevy

When I look at pqia summaries it looks like the last round of 5w20 avg 811 zinc, with 5w30 range being higher (they don't show the avg and I haven't calculated one, but they show a higher range). It may or may not have any real world effect, but it does look different from eyeballing the data.

 

[Dominic]

I would like to add this website to the argument:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

Read the section on temporary shear. There's a lot going on with regards to wear in an engine under different load levels. It's interesting to think that a 0W-20 with a high VI might be less shear stable than one with low VI. Food for thought

I am personally very happy running a 0W-20 oil in a cool running engine. My mazda runs 176-180F coolant temps all day long, and roughly 190-200F oil temps. If I had a hot turbocharged german car or super hot running GM V8, I would want a much thicker oil so it would thin to around 7-10cSt when fully warm. I think the average turbocharged BMW that specs 5W-40 runs 240-260F oil temps? (I could be wrong, please correct me)