Mine is definitely the 2nd gen2nd generation improved by-pass valve 2014-today.
Mine is definitely the 2nd gen2nd generation improved by-pass valve 2014-today.
Then why does the system drain back oil, and then the Baxter unit was invented to prevent that oil drain back?There is a anti drain back valve. The engineers that designed and built the engine aren't stupid. here is how it works, look at the following picture from engineering illustrations.
I don't think Baxter would invent this product if there wasn't really a need for it. Maybe a main factor in the oil drain down is the built-in ADBV in the bottom of the cartridge filter cavity? Maybe some work better than others, or some degrade and don't work as well.Hi ZeeOSix,
I hope you can help me with your first question because I've not been able to find a report that says they empty out and if they do how much. I've gone through pages of threads on this topic but can't find a technical document stating how much these systems empty.
I've watched the Baxter video and Kevin at Baxter claims the 3.6 Pentastar empties in 30 minutes. But what does empty mean?
I started my 2019 Grand Cherokee for the first time in four days and it starts immediately with no oil pressure light, no ticks.
This is similar along the lines of "does installing an oil filter dry vs pre-filling it" make a difference in engine wear. I'm sure you've seen the couple of latest threads on that subject. Will it make a difference in engine wear over the long run? ... maybe it could IMO, especially when it may be happening with every start-up. With a dry filter change every 5-10K miles, not so much due to the much lower "dry" start counts. I'll say starting an engine with an empty filter and gallerias vs not empty isn't ideal. That the main reason ADBVs where invented in oil filters or cartridge filter cavities.And the most important question, "is damage done at startup?" in the Toyota, Subaru, Pentastar and Ford engines Baxter is making this device for. I would welcome comments from an automotive engineer on the designed performance of the lubrication systems of these engines.
I'd say the guy who started that thread you linked to on the Challenger forum is claiming something without any real proof, and based just on the fact that he sees a built-in ADBV in the housing and believes the ADBV is working perfectly. Is it really?On your second question why did Baxter invent it. I found most of the reviewers on the Baxter sight comment that the complexity of changing a cartridge filter is eliminated with the switch to a spin on filter the Baxter provides, definitely a good thing for consumer convenience. Second, if the Baxter unit can keep more oil in the system people will perceive that as good thing and feel it will extend the life of their engine.
I don't think Baxter would invent this product if there wasn't really a need for it. Maybe a main factor in the oil drain down is the built-in ADBV in the bottom of the cartridge filter cavity? Maybe some work better than others, or some degrade and don't work as well.
Have you ever experimented with your vehicle? When you change your oil filter, how much oil is left in the filter cavity? Have you changed the filter hours after the engine was shut down vs in less than 30 minutes after a shutdown? Do some experimentation on your vehicle and find out first hand is all I can suggest. Otherwise, I'd have to believe Baxter has investigated the issue and came up with the product the did.
This is similar along the lines of "does installing an oil filter dry vs pre-filling it" make a difference in engine wear. I'm sure you've seen the couple of latest threads on that subject. Will it make a difference in engine wear over the long run? ... maybe it could IMO, especially when it may be happening with every start-up. With a dry filter change every 5-10K miles, not so much due to the much lower "dry" start counts. I'll say starting an engine with an empty filter and gallerias vs not empty isn't ideal. That the main reason ADBVs where invented in oil filters or cartridge filter cavities.
I'd say the guy who started that thread you linked to on the Challenger forum is claiming something without any real proof, and based just on the fact that he sees a built-in ADBV in the housing and believes the ADBV is working perfectly. Is it really?
Are all these forum posts yours or are you randomly copying other peoples info/posts without crediting them?Thank you ZeeOSix for your reply, I always appreciate your insights. I’ll definitely try your test recommendations but unfortunately it won’t be for awhile because I have only 1,028 miles on my latest Valvoline Advanced Synthetic oil change! But I have been doing research and have conducted a test to share.
Based on the time to pressure testing, it seems to be showing not much if any oil drain down when the engine is shut off. Next time you do an oil and filter change, or better yet if you just changed the oil filter, see how long it takes to make the same pressure target in your test. That would give you a better baseline of how long a system without being completely filled with oil might take to built oil pressure. Do you have an actual pressure gauge, or are you going by an oil pressure light? I'm wondering how well some PD pumps can pump, even with some air in the system when the engine is running, and if they can build enough pressure even with some air in the system to make an oil warning light go off if the trip point on the oil warning light is set pretty low. Any idea what oil pressure (from the oil pressure switch near the oil cooler) makes the light go off?Time To Pressure Test
The question remained “is oil being held in the system or is it draining back over time?"
I did a test I call “Time To Pressure”. With a stopwatch in hand, I started my Jeep Grand Cherokee and timed how long it took to register pressure on the gauge for three conditions:
- Sitting overnight
- Sitting 2.5 hours after being run
- A Restart, i.e. shutting off the engine and then starting it immediately
With no significant variation in the time to pressure and the fact that the filter housing does hold oil because it drains during an oil change, the data is telling me that there is some amount of oil that is not draining back during normal operation of the vehicle.
I’d appreciate your comments on my analysis, test design and conclusion.
Is it robust and working 100%? Only way to know is to verify somehow, like I mentioned in post 28. How do you know it's not slowly leaking out and draining the filter housing to some degree without visual verification? If you removed the filter housing cap 24 hours after a shutdown, how much oil is still actually in the filter housing before the cartridge is removed? Is the level of the oil inside the housing high and close to the top of the housing, or is it very low near the bottom of the housing before the filter is removed? Does any oil leak out from the top of the housing when the cap is removed, or does that never happen? If it never happens, why does the oil level go down inside the housing below the top of the housing from just sitting?When assembling the cartridge the nose with the o-ring depresses a valve in bottom of the filter housing sealing off the compartment. When removing it, the valve is opened when changing the oil and the compartment drains. A very simple robust design.
That is the correct method, not torque it to 100 lb/ft like the guy did on mine.I turn cap in until it touches the base, STOP!!!!!!!!!!
Good Morning ZeeOSix,Is it robust and working 100%? Only way to know is to verify somehow, like I mentioned in post 28. How do you know it's not slowly leaking out and draining the filter housing to some degree without visual verification? If you removed the filter housing cap 24 hours after a shutdown, how much oil is still actually in the filter housing before the cartridge is removed? Is the level of the oil inside the housing high and close to the top of the housing, or is it very low near the bottom of the housing before the filter is removed? Does any oil leak out from the top of the housing when the cap is removed, or does that never happen? If it never happens, why does the oil level go down inside the housing below the top of the housing from just sitting?
I agree based on what I see too. There apparently is no anti-drainback valve (ie, a check valve) of any kind between the oil pump and the oil filter housing. The only thing that holds back the oil in the gallery (and filter housing) between housing and pump is the oil pump itself. Maybe some oil pumps are tighter than others, so this drainback phenomenon may vary between engines. With not ADBV/check valve, between the pump and filter housing, the oil can drain back over time (green arrows) due to gravity. The "plug" the oil filter provides at the bottom of the filter housing is to only yo drain out the small residual oil volume left in the housing (below the blue line in my annotated figure) when the filter is changed.The video begins with an engine start that fills the housings and then engine off. Time lapse photography shows the canister housing drains in 35 minutes and the oil in the Baxter unit not moving after 48 hours. When I've done an oil change, about 15 minutes has elapsed from engine off to when I remove the filter. The oil is low in the housing that point.
There are two places the oil can drain in the Pentastar design:
1. The vertical feeder passage from the pump to the filter housing above and/or
2. The horizontal exit from the housing to the oil cooler that feeds the main gallery below.
The housing drain is closed with the cartridge in place and oil cannot drain from there.
Like mentioned earlier, it's possible that the sensor for the oil pressure warning light triggers the warning light off at a very low pressure, and if there was some air in the system it's possible that the sensor would still make the warning light to off pretty quickly. For instance, If some air is trapped in the middle of an oil column, ie: there was just an air pocket in the filter housing because it drained down some, the air will compress quickly from the incoming oil and still transmit pressure through the gallery to the pressure sensor by the oil cooler. On the other hand, If a gallery was completely empty, and air was allowed to escape on the outlet of the gallery to atmospheric pressure, then it would take a lot longer for pressure to build and the warning light to go out.With the filter housing drained in 35 minutes per the video, how can my time to pressure be the same with a full housing after a restart and with an empty housing after sitting 2.5 hours and 24 hours?
Have the lubrication galleries been designed to hold enough oil in between engine starts, regardless of time, to protect the engine? A form of anti drain back?
Is the pump so powerful that anti drain back is not needed?
Good Evening ZeeOSix,I agree based on what I see too. There apparently is no anti-drainback valve (ie, a check valve) of any kind between the oil pump and the oil filter housing. The only thing that holds back the oil in the gallery (and filter housing) between housing and pump is the oil pump itself. Maybe some oil pumps are tighter than others, so this drainback phenomenon may vary between engines. With not ADBV/check valve, between the pump and filter housing, the oil can drain back over time (green arrows) due to gravity. The "plug" the oil filter provides at the bottom of the filter housing is to only yo drain out the small residual oil volume left in the housing (below the blue line in my annotated figure) when the filter is changed.
Sidenote: The guy on the Challenger site who started that thread that you link to earlier (ref post 10) was wrong when he said:
"There is a anti drainback valve. The engineers that designed and built the engine aren't stupid. here is how it works, look at the following picture from engineering illustrations."
He seems to be confusing the plug below the filter to drain the residual oil in the housing with a "anti drainback valve". I see no evidence of a true anti-drainback valve between the pump and filter housing in this oiling system.
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Like mentioned earlier, it's possible that the sensor for the oil pressure warning light triggers the warning light off at a very low pressure, and if there was some air in the system it's possible that the sensor would still make the warning light to off pretty quickly. For instance, If some air is trapped in the middle of an oil column, ie: there was just an air pocket in the filter housing because it drained down some, the air will compress quickly from the incoming oil and still transmit pressure through the gallery to the pressure sensor by the oil cooler. On the other hand, If a gallery was completely empty, and air was allowed to escape on the outlet of the gallery to atmospheric pressure, then it would take a lot longer for pressure to build and the warning light to go out.
IMO, if you are not seeing any real difference in your "time to make the oil pressure light go out" tests, then I wouldn't worry about it. But if you saw a big difference (like it takes 3 or 4 times longer), then it might be worth doing something about it. Maybe the oil pump in your engine is pretty tight, and doesn't drain the housing down much with extended sit time. Only way to know is to remove the filter housing cap and do a visual "oil level vs sit time" test at different time intervals to see if yours is draining all the way down with extended time.
Is you oil pressure gauge a factory gauge, or one that you put in yourself? Where does it pickup the oil pressure at on the engine ... the same location near the oil cooler that is shown in the previous figures? Is it actuated by an electrical signal, or is it the old fashioned type pressure gauge, like I explain below?Good Evening ZeeOSix,
A clarification. I'm using the oil pressure gauge on the dashboard to time when the pressure exceeds zero, not a warning light.
Would air in the system influence a gauge in the same way? What I observe is the pressure will hit 5 then rapidly spike to 31 and then to 80 all in 1.4 seconds. This is on a cold start where the engine has sat overnight.
Glad to help out anytime ...Thank you for all your detailed feedback and thoughts throughout this thread.
Good Morning ZeeOSix,Is you oil pressure gauge a factory gauge, or one that you put in yourself? Where does it pickup the oil pressure at on the engine ... the same location near the oil cooler that is shown in the previous figures? Is it actuated by an electrical signal, or is it the old fashioned type pressure gauge, like I explain below?
It may be possible that even with some air pockets in the system the pressure gauge could act the way you see it acting. Any air between two "slugs" of oil will just compress to whatever pressure it needs in order to move the oil in front of it through the system. It might take a hair longer to react, but it may not be that noticeable. As an example, I had an old pickup many years ago that I installed one of those mechanical oil pressure gauges under the dash, and it used that small clear nylon tube that ran from the back of the pressure gauge to a fitting on the engine to sense oil pressure directly. That tube was not filled 100% with oil, but I could see air pockets throughout the tube's length between the engine and the mechanical gauge. That gauge worked just as good with some air pockets in the tube that it would have being filled 100% with oil. It may not have went from zero to full pressure quite as fast, but it was still really fast reacting.
A test you could do is this. Let the Jeep sit 24 hours before each test 1) and 2) described below to have constancy. Do a cold start and accurately measure the time to hit the cold start idle max oil pressure.
1) Minimum filter housing air pocket test. Remove filter housing cap. If the oil level is down from the top of the housing, carefully add enough new oil to bring the level to the top so that the air pocket in the housing is minimized. Install the filter housing cap and then immediately do a cold start-up to max pressure time measurement as accurately as possible.
2) Maximum filter housing air pocket test. Do the same test as 1) above, but this time remove the oil filter cartridge to drain the filter housing as much as possible, thereby giving the maximum air pocket in the filter housing. Reinstall the filter and housing cap, then do the cold start-up to max pressure time measurement again.
Compare the two tests and see if you can see a distinguishable difference in time to max oil pressure. If you can't really see a big difference in time than that would prove that an air pocket in the filter housing can not really be seen by the reaction of the pressure gauge.
Glad to help out anytime ...
Got ya. So you could at least do the following, which will give you the extreme case.The overall testing you described makes sense except the #1 Minimum test will not be possible because the cap cannot removed alone, the filter is attached it. This is so the drain for the housing at the bottom of the filter gets opened automatically when the cap with filter is unscrewed. The Pentastar engineers did a good job insuring the housing would get drained during an oil change!
So in your testing data table, it looks like you did a cold start-up (on 11/9/23) after it sat overnight, which would allow the filter housing and system to naturally drain well, if it was going to drain. Then after the 1st cold start-up, you ran the engine just for a minute or less so the oil was still cold for another restart shorty later - correct? If so, that would have purged any air out of the filter housing and oiling system on the 1st cold start. Then you did a 2nd cold restart to see if purging any air showed a time difference ... correct?Good Morning ZeeOSix,
I came up with another test. I timed how long it takes to fill the Pentastar cartridge housing watching the Baxter Performance video. The housing is completely empty at the video start because one can see the cross at the bottom of the cartridge.
I started my watch at the first sound of the engine cranking to the time the lens is completely blanked out. The table below compares the results of timing the vehicle pressure gauge to greater than zero to the Baxter Video oil housing fill time. The average is .3 seconds longer on the timing the video fill.
One of the possible causes of the difference is starting the watch to the first sound of the engine cranking in the video. It is difficult. Timing the gauge is easier to synchronize because one hand hits the engine start and the other hits the stop watch button.
The 2.5 hour and Overnight with an empty housing were 1.4-1.5 seconds that correlates well with the video. The 1.0 overnight time I cannot rationalize and perhaps is a timing error on my part. The Restarts with a full housing are slightly faster at 1.1-1.3 which makes sense.
I'm concluding because of the small standard deviations in the data if there were a pocket of air created from an empty housing and/or empty oil galleries(s) that it doesn't influence time to pressure.
I welcome your thoughts and insights!
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