2008 and newer 4 door Jeep wranglers.

[supton]

Why would the transmission cooler go into the condensor? Seems to make no sense to me... Maybe it doesn't matter that much, as long as it has airflow over it... I just find it odd, as my Toyota seems to want hot ATF, and I've read in a few places that they do just that: inhibit torque convertor lockup until everything is good and hot. Which is an argument for using engine radiator instead, use the ATF to warm up the engine for lower initial running emissions.

I guess I fail to see the gain in plumbing to the a/c condensor, or the engineering tradeoff.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: supton
Why would the transmission cooler go into the condensor? Seems to make no sense to me... Maybe it doesn't matter that much, as long as it has airflow over it... I just find it odd, as my Toyota seems to want hot ATF, and I've read in a few places that they do just that: inhibit torque convertor lockup until everything is good and hot. Which is an argument for using engine radiator instead, use the ATF to warm up the engine for lower initial running emissions.

I guess I fail to see the gain in plumbing to the a/c condensor, or the engineering tradeoff.


It's Chrysler ... a lot of things done by Chrysler does not make sense. The same can be said for any auto maker, though.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: supton
I guess I fail to see the gain in plumbing to the a/c condensor, or the engineering tradeoff.


It allows them to have an oil-to-air transmission cooler without installing a third finned cooling device at the front of the vehicle. I don't recall if this is plumbed completely in place of an oil-to-water cooler in the radiator (conventional for AT coolers), or if it's additional to that and plumbed in series with one.

 

[RamFan]

Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
Originally Posted By: RamFan
For a daily driver I'd look at '11+ Patriot with Freedom Drive 2. Decent gas mileage and much smoother on the road than a Wrangler. The Wrangler will no doubt be capable in severe conditions but it isn't worth the mileage hit and rough ride, imo the Wrangler is the most impractical vehicle made today to serve as a daily driver.

How much of a budget are you working with?


I appreciate your honest opinion, when i do buy i will likely be looking to keep the price at or under $30,000 (for a good used 1-2 year old model) ?????


With a $30k budget, the world is your oyster! Are you strictly working at used and are you already set on a Wrangler? I'm going to work as if you are still filtering vehicles. As I've already stated, I'm not a fan of Wranglers as daily drivers. Not because I don't like the Wrangler, I love them, they serve a great a purpose for what their intended use is. That intended use though takes away from daily driver practicality. I too was looking for a crossover/suv and decided on a '14 CX-5. I would suggest you look at the following.

1. '14 Mazda CX-5 (greatly depends on just how severe your weather is)
2. '11+ Jeep Grand Cherokee
3. Subaru Forester
4. '13+ Hyundai Santa Fe (greatly depends on just how severe your weather is)
5. '11+ Jeep Patriot w/ FDII (Extremely affordable and capable for its size)

Just my

, again, nothing wrong with the Wrangler. For a daily driver though I think you can do better.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
Have you considered a 4WD Toyota FJ Cruiser? They would be much more reliable than a Jeep.


I like this idea also. Couple years old can be had for well under 30k. FJ will be my next vehicle.

 

[OtisBlkR1]

Originally Posted By: RamFan
Originally Posted By: OtisBlkR1
Originally Posted By: RamFan
For a daily driver I'd look at '11+ Patriot with Freedom Drive 2. Decent gas mileage and much smoother on the road than a Wrangler. The Wrangler will no doubt be capable in severe conditions but it isn't worth the mileage hit and rough ride, imo the Wrangler is the most impractical vehicle made today to serve as a daily driver.

How much of a budget are you working with?


I appreciate your honest opinion, when i do buy i will likely be looking to keep the price at or under $30,000 (for a good used 1-2 year old model) ?????


With a $30k budget, the world is your oyster! Are you strictly working at used and are you already set on a Wrangler? I'm going to work as if you are still filtering vehicles. As I've already stated, I'm not a fan of Wranglers as daily drivers. Not because I don't like the Wrangler, I love them, they serve a great a purpose for what their intended use is. That intended use though takes away from daily driver practicality. I too was looking for a crossover/suv and decided on a '14 CX-5. I would suggest you look at the following.

1. '14 Mazda CX-5 (greatly depends on just how severe your weather is)
2. '11+ Jeep Grand Cherokee
3. Subaru Forester
4. '13+ Hyundai Santa Fe (greatly depends on just how severe your weather is)
5. '11+ Jeep Patriot w/ FDII (Extremely affordable and capable for its size)

Just my

, again, nothing wrong with the Wrangler. For a daily driver though I think you can do better.



i like buying auto's with 1-2 years of depreciation on them and under 30,000 miles.

WHY??

well, take my Silverado for example, i bought it two years old with 38,000 on it for around HALF of what its sticker price was only two years before.

Same for my honda, it was almost exactly two years old with low miles and i gave LESS than half for it.

Also, somebody else after 30,000 miles and a couple of years driving it has most likely already found the bugs and its been repaired under factory warranty.. I do long very in depth test drives when i buy, and ive yet to buy a lemon (thanks BITOG) for alot of good information in helping me buy quality used cars..

Also: When i buy used i tend to buy the absolute top of the line model whith all the bells and whistles. Its been my finding that most well to do folks that buy and trade in a two years later arent out in the parking lot doing power brake burnouts, and most the folks that can afford these autos take care of them so they can get as much back out of them at trade in time. I know there are plenty of exceptions to my thinking but like i said, i go through them with a fine tooth comb before i even start to make a offer.

I have only ever purchased one brand new off the lot machine, and that was a motorcycle.. and frankly if i had it to do over again i probably would have bought used.. My brand new bike turned out to be a lemon with the Motor needing rebuilt within 3 months of new.

SO, for 30 large im probably going to be looking at auto's that stickered much higher only a few years prior.

Im deffinately not sold on a jeep, im just sniffing right now.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
Have you considered a 4WD Toyota FJ Cruiser? They would be much more reliable than a Jeep.


I can't comment on the reliability, but I had one as a rental recently. The ergonomics have to be the worst of any vehicle I've ever driven, including 1940s-vintage trucks. Its not like they just got one thing wrong, they went out of their way to make it horrible, especially when it comes to visibility . Side mirrors too tiny and not extended enough from vehicle, windshield "brow" too low and FAR too far forward (if you're first in line at a traffic light, you better stop 3 car-lengths short if you want to see it turn green), rear headrests blocking other view angles, rear window nearly useless, rear side windows poorly placed. That was a terrible week with a rental car when I had one. On the plus side, it rides and handles almost exactly the same as a 1990 Cherokee. Might even accelerate just a little bit better... :-/

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: supton


I guess I fail to see the gain in plumbing to the a/c condensor, or the engineering tradeoff.


Its probably about packaging and cooling efficiency, getting the best delta-T across both coolers as well as the radiator. It gets to be problematic when you stack heat exchangers 3-deep in the front of a vehicle with a narrow nose, the air flow gets restricted and the rearmost cooler only sees hot air from the front coolers. The Rams put them side-by-side with separate fans in some models- my 08 has the AC condensor set to the driver's side of the radiator with its own dedicated electric fan, then the trans cooler, oil cooler, and PS fluid coolers stacked one above the other in front of the radiator and the top 1/2 of the radiator has nothing in front of it... but a Jeep doesn't have an acre of nose space like a Ram.

The Wrangler setup gets the coolest air to both the AC condensor and the AT fluid cooler with them "interwoven" that way, and it reduces front-to-back stacking of coolers that impair the functioning of the rear-most cooler (in this case the coolant radiator. Its rarely any problem EXCEPT if you clog it up with mud, which can happen since IIRC its in the lower portion of the condensor. But by that time, you've compromised cooling ability of the condensor and coolant radiator also.

 

[Stewart Fan]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Its rarely any problem EXCEPT if you clog it up with mud, which can happen since IIRC its in the lower portion of the condensor. But by that time, you've compromised cooling ability of the condensor and coolant radiator also.



I see you're a Mopar guy,but you can't ignore the facts.Unless things have changed, JKs don't have sufficient trans cooling from the factory. Jeep forums are littered with complaints. There are even instances where JKs caught fire because the trans overheated and puked ATF out the dipstick.

There were several times I got the transmission hot warning,and that was on simple forest service roads with no wheeling going on.

I basically couldn't wheel my JK until I added the additional cooling. The trans overheated that quickly.

 

[montero1]

I've driven mine 5 hours on the highway, then right to the trail for 5 hours, never had the AT warning light.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
Have you considered a 4WD Toyota FJ Cruiser? They would be much more reliable than a Jeep.

On the plus side, it rides and handles almost exactly the same as a 1990 Cherokee. Might even accelerate just a little bit better... :-/



That's ... pretty bad. PLEASE tell me it at least stops better than a 1990 Cherokee.

I have been wanting to test drive one.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
Have you considered a 4WD Toyota FJ Cruiser? They would be much more reliable than a Jeep.

On the plus side, it rides and handles almost exactly the same as a 1990 Cherokee. Might even accelerate just a little bit better... :-/



That's ... pretty bad. PLEASE tell me it at least stops better than a 1990 Cherokee.

I have been wanting to test drive one.


IMO the FJ drives very nicely. We're NOT talking luxury nice, but with a nice solid feel, tight, accurate steering and good brakes. What 440 said about the view to the rear is, in part, correct. But if you take some time to adjust the mirrors correctly, you will find that the view to the rear is just what you need (safe), even if it is less than you're used to out the windows in other vehicles.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
Have you considered a 4WD Toyota FJ Cruiser? They would be much more reliable than a Jeep.

On the plus side, it rides and handles almost exactly the same as a 1990 Cherokee. Might even accelerate just a little bit better... :-/



That's ... pretty bad. PLEASE tell me it at least stops better than a 1990 Cherokee.

I have been wanting to test drive one.


IMO the FJ drives very nicely. We're NOT talking luxury nice, but with a nice solid feel, tight, accurate steering and good brakes. What 440 said about the view to the rear is, in part, correct. But if you take some time to adjust the mirrors correctly, you will find that the view to the rear is just what you need (safe), even if it is less than you're used to out the windows in other vehicles.



Any vehicle I have, I slap the largest convex mirror on that I can. Way more useful than the flat mirrors.

 

[440Magnum]

Dredging this thread up because.... I just got back from a week on Hawaii (the big island- great vacation) and for the entire week I was driving a Wrangler Unlimited (4-door) with the old 3.8L pushrod engine and 42RE (I think...) transmission, NP231 manual Xfer case. And 51,000 miles- the most I've ever had on a rental vehicle.

It was interesting. I generally liked the Wrangler, and found that it rides a little better than I expected. Looking under it, the factory has done some things to the suspension that the aftermarket has done for years- longer control arms than the XJ/YJ/TJ's had, and made of beefier stuff than the stamped-steel XJ parts. It also has a mid-shaft slip yoke on the rear driveshaft, the way "slip yoke eliminator" kits for the older Jeeps have been doing it for a long time. It still has the typical solid-axle Jeep steering wander- that type suspension always will, and will get "death wobble" if bushings are neglected, especially on the trackbar. But generally it drove well. I'd say the ride (bounce over potholes) is a better than the Toyota FJ Cruiser, and the handling (steering responsiveness and 'hands-off-wheel' stability) is a notch worse than the FJ due to the solid front axle, but I'd trade that for the extra offroadability ANY day.

Visibility much better than the FJ, no two ways about it and I've now had one of each in fairly close succession for a good comparison. The FJ has problems with *forward* visibility because of the way the roof extends ahead of the driver.... its a bit like driving from the back seat :-/ The Wrangler doesn't have that issue. The Wrangler is a little worse mirror-wise than I remembered, and in that regard isn't that much better than the FJ. But when you turn your head, you can see out the rear quarters of the Wrangler better than the FJ.And somehow I seemed to be able to see more past the spare tire on the Wrangler, although it doesn't seem like that should be possible. In summary, I overstated the difference in rearward visibility before, but not by too much. The FJ still is worse all-around for visibilty than the Wrangler.

The 3.8 is a slug in the 4-door, no two ways about that either. So a post-head-fix (Aug 2012) 3.6 Pentastar is the way to go if you can. I will say that the 3.8 is "adequate" the same way the old 4.0 was "adequate." Their power delivery is pretty similar- enough torque to climb anything, but forget aggressive highway passing and anything much over 4000 RPM. And the 4-speed auto hunts like crazy in the mountains, and the big island is ALL mountain. What impressed *me* is that this vehicle has spent its whole 50k mile life doing nothing but driving up and down grades in Hawaii, with rental car drivers, and no doubt hunting the gears all the time. You can hardly go anywhere with less than a 2500' elevation change, and crossing the "saddle" highway between Hilo and Kona is a 6500' climb and descent over only 60 miles or so. I never had a trans temp warning, and I just made it do its thing, rarely holding a lower gear manually. I agree that JK's probably don't have enough cooling compared to some other Jeeps (and this actually exacerbated the early 3.6L cylinder head problems, I believe), but it was enough for a pretty difficult on-road environment. Offroad with dust and junk in the fins... probably worse, but an aftermarket cooler should handle it. There's PLENTY of room between the engine and the radiator to get creative.

So all in all, I think I like the FJ a little more in comparison to the Wrangler than I thought I did, but the Wrangler is still my pick.

PS- I love the fact that the Wrangler still has a mechanical transfer case linkage instead of a knob and some solenoids (or no knob and just a bunch of software like the new Grand Cherokee). You can FEEL when you get it in 4-HI, and yes you will grind into 4-Low if you don't come to a stop... but its nice to know for SURE when its engaged. Its a Jeep. after all.

 

[Hokiefyd]

My parents 'wheel their '12 JK in severe rock-crawling conditions and have never had any cooling system problems. It's also not something they come across when leading other groups (dad heads the Family Motor Coach Four Wheeling Association). They host 6-8 rallies each year, and lead many more trails.

The JKs are tough.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
My parents 'wheel their '12 JK in severe rock-crawling conditions and have never had any cooling system problems. It's also not something they come across when leading other groups (dad heads the Family Motor Coach Four Wheeling Association). They host 6-8 rallies each year, and lead many more trails.

The JKs are tough.


We had so many problems with the one we had, that my parents will never buy another Chrysler product ever. 30 years of Jeep ownership destroyed by such poor quality.

I agree the suspensions are better and the interior is spacious ... but I'm still not entirely sure how they hold up.

The transmissions overheat. Causing them to overheat. A good number of the 07 and 08 drink oil and spin bearings.

With just 2'' of lift - they can fit 35'' tires! You'd need to go with an expensive long arm kit, 4 or 5'' of loift to get 35s to clear on a TJ wrangler!

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
My parents 'wheel their '12 JK in severe rock-crawling conditions and have never had any cooling system problems. It's also not something they come across when leading other groups (dad heads the Family Motor Coach Four Wheeling Association). They host 6-8 rallies each year, and lead many more trails.

The JKs are tough.


All in all, it impresses. Mostly by the fact that its remained a serious, no-bull, no-frills, offroad-capable machine. If anything, its more capable than the TJ, while the rest of the Jeep lineup has gone more toward "mall crawler" features like all other 4x4s in the past 10 years (except the G-wagon, which is useless to most people for other reasons- $$$). I was doubtful when Jeep phased out the XJ Cherokee and then the 4.0 yet still promised that the Wrangler would always remain a genuine, unbreakable offroader- but so far they've kept the promise.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

More a fan of the 07-10 interior than the newer one. In the next 3-4 years they'll be coming out with a new one. Hopefully it will be Full Frame and solid axles.

If Ford had bought Jeep instead of Chrysler, the Wrangler would be based off of the Ford Taurus (like pretty much everything else in their lineup ...)

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
All in all, it impresses. Mostly by the fact that its remained a serious, no-bull, no-frills, offroad-capable machine. If anything, its more capable than the TJ...


JKs are far more capable than TJs in stock form. My folks had an '06 TJ before this, and had to install all of the following to enable it to keep up with stock JKs: tummy tuck kit, long arm suspension kit, 4-6" of lift (they elected to install an air bag spring kit with onboard compressor), upgraded steering kit, front stabilizer bar disconnect kit, etc.

Their '12 Rubi JK has all of that stock (well, besides the air bags and the lift). You don't have to tummy-tuck a JK. The JKs have long enough control arms that most folks don't buy long arm kits anymore. The Rubis have factory front stabilizer bar disconnects, and still have locking differentials front and rear. They're incredibly capable machines.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
We had so many problems with the one we had, that my parents will never buy another Chrysler product ever. 30 years of Jeep ownership destroyed by such poor quality.


That's too bad. Chryslers seem very much to be vehicles of extremes. You either get a really good one or you get a really poor one. My folks have owned Jeeps for decades, but they got a really poor 2005 Grand Cherokee 5.7L Limited. It was so bad, they had to force Jeep to buy it back through a Lemon Lawn attorney. This was after two XJs, a ZJ, and then a KJ.

After they Lemon-Law'd the '05 Grand, they bought the '05 Acura MDX that we now own. But after a year, dad got the itch to get back into 4-wheeling, so they bought their '06 TJ Rubi, which they HEAVILY modified for rock crawling, and then sold that to a fellow Jeeper and bought their '12 JK Rubi. It's also modified, but not to the extent of their TJ. Both Wranglers have been very good to them.

My neighbor has an '08 4-door JK Rubi and it's also been good to him. I've helped him do some things on it (two suspension lifts), and I've been impressed with the engineering under the vehicle and with the interior as well. Most people don't realize how well a JK rides until they get in one. My folks' TJ rode like a dump truck, but they liken their '12 JK to the Acura they used to own, and that we now own. It delivers a very good ride, with plush leather seats and has a feeling that it was carved out of a single piece of steel...very solid, very tight.

It is too bad your folks had a bad Wrangler. I can sympathize...my folks had to LL their Grand Cherokee and I wished I could LL our 2007 Chrysler Town & Country. We loved the van, but it was horribly unreliable, and the dealerships here were terrible. We may own another Chrysler some day, though. It probably won't be soon, but maybe some day.