2000 BMW 540i 5-spd ZF - ATF analysis at 87.9K mi

[wquiles]

My car (which I bought used) had 87911 miles in the original ESSO LT71141 fluid. From the records I got form the prior onwer, the auto tranny has never been serviced until I did recently, but it might had a top-off a few years back. Here if the ATF fluid analysis on the sample that I got while I was draining the old fluid:

They way I am reading it, specially their comments, it would appear that there is in fact benefit from changing fluid sooner than later.

Once I do my second pan drop, filter/fluid change, I will get another sample and sent it out for comparison.

 

[Pablo]

The only good thing about that fluid is that is "outta your transmission"

But it apparently didn't shear and I suppose the wear could be worse. The B is interesting in ESSO LT71141.

I would advise a relatively short run as a flush this go around.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

wow.

I highly encourage you to send this report to BMW and demand(!) a response.

 

[Pablo]

youdontwannaknow wrote:

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wow.

I highly encourage you to send this report to BMW and demand(!) a response.

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Maybe theydontwannaknow! (sorry that one was begging for a call

)

 

[The Critic]

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wow.

I highly encourage you to send this report to BMW and demand(!) a response.

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How many of us on this forum are experts on ZF transmissions and their normal wear pattern?

I'm quite certain that this fluid analysis would be considered "normal" if shown to the engineer who engineered this transmission and did the testing to validate the OEM fluid as lifetime fill.

Maybe the old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies here.

 

[wquiles]

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I'm quite certain that this fluid analysis would be considered "normal" if shown to the engineer who engineered this transmission and did the testing to validate the OEM fluid as lifetime fill.

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How can "you" be certain? All of my extensive research on this clearly points to marketing folks here in the USA as the ones that came up with the "lifetime" bull-s#$%. It was clearly "not" the ZF engineers. I for one, given the high amount of Al and insolubles, have the strong believe that the ZF engineerings would be mortified to know that these tranny's are being forced to have that much "junk" running inside their fine product/design.

 

[The Critic]

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How can "you" be certain? All of my extensive research on this clearly points to marketing folks here in the USA as the ones that came up with the "lifetime" bull-s#$%.

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Extensive research through what?

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It was clearly "not" the ZF engineers.

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Hmm, let me think for a moment. How many other OEMs use ZF transmissions as specify lifetime fill? And knowing BMW's clientel, the owners would very well pay for a fluid change if it was necessary.

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I for one, given the high amount of Al and insolubles, have the strong believe that the ZF engineerings would be mortified to know that these tranny's are being forced to have that much "junk" running inside their fine product/design.

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And how are you certain that the level of Al running in your transmission is abrasive? You trust Blackstone's results? You do realize that OEMs do not use labs such as Blackstone, right?

 

[wquiles]

The Critic,

Given your responses, I think I need to apologize as I think you have misunderstood the intention of my reply.

Yes, to me, I did extensive research since I bought this used car (Feb), though about end of July. I not only asked for information and feedback, read about every single post on folks changing their ATF fluid on these so called "lifetime" fluid (not only in this forum but in several BMW, Jaguar sites), but also got into really good dialogs with several who both elected to use the ESSO, and many more than actually used other than ESSO like I recently did. I also find a very nice chap in Germany that was able to get the original reasons as to the extended drain intervals straight from the actual engineers who worked on the tranny (who stated they did "not" came up with the "lifetime" idea - they wanted a long service type of indication/label). Lastly, I also spend good time face to face with a 7-year veteran of fluid analysis who worked for GM and now is a consultant (he almost laughed at my face when I told him about BMW's "lifetime" fluid claims - he found it completely humorous that folks would be so gullible to believe in the existence of a lifetime fluid, let alone inside a auto tranny).

I know the word "extensive" is relative, but I am here to learn so if you have additional sources of information that might help change my mind about not trusting "lifetime" fluids, please send them my way. That is why I was asking how "you" could be certain - about 90-95% of the information I have reviewed so far clearly points to the non-existence of the so call lifetime fluids. Again, my apologies if the tone of my initial reply came across too strongly worded.

You also make a very good point about Blackstone labs - it is the one I know, the one I have used in the past - I don't know any thing better. If their results are not to be trusted, please let me know more about it - I would love to use a more trusted/reputable lab for when I extract the second ATF fluid sample in about 2 weeks.

I am here to learn and to share what I have done. Thanks in advance for your help

 

[unDummy]

I've dealt with OE engineers from various transmission companies. Trust me, they do NOT want lifetime fluids. The marketing department and silly consumerism has created this pseudo lifetime ATFs. BMW years ago did NOT hide the fact that 'its all about lowering the cost of ownership'. Most owners that can buy a new fancy vehicle, will dump it in a few years. The warranty will also expire before major problems occur. Lifetime fluid=disposable vehicle, plain and simple! Or, as we are seeing, a headache for the 2nd or 3rd owners who want 'shiney and fancy' parked in the driveway but can't buy new.

Concerning BMW owners, must don't even know how to pop their hoods and rely on very limited maintenance provided by their dealers, because the owners manual says so. There might be a 'small' percentage that actually appreciates the car. I wouldn't call them a majority.

This reports shows that the fluid is shot. No other lab or OE interpretation is needed.

BTW, ANY and ALL wear in a suspended in the fluid is abrasive.

 

[The Critic]

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This reports shows that the fluid is shot. No other lab or OE interpretation is needed.

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On what basis? What are you credentials that allow you to make such a statement? Look, I'm not an expert on interpreting fluid analysis reports and I do not play one on the internet. Perhaps you shouldn't either.

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BTW, ANY and ALL wear in a suspended in the fluid is abrasive.

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In that case, should I change my engine oil at every gas fill-up?

 

[unDummy]

Wear is high.
Insolubles high.
Viscosity is good--is it from a stout basestock or did ATF thicken back up with time???
What was TAN?

Noone has to be an expert to see that. No consultant or fancy lab is needed.

This is not an engine oil UOA. And, if your engine oil had wear that high after a tank of gas, you have bigger problems. Learn not to create useless non-comparative data in your arguments.

 

[benjamming]

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You also make a very good point about Blackstone labs - it is the one I know, the one I have used in the past - I don't know any thing better. If their results are not to be trusted, please let me know more about it - I would love to use a more trusted/reputable lab for when I extract the second ATF fluid sample in about 2 weeks.

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I wouldn't go so far as saying that their results are not to be trusted. However, if you want a real interpretation of your fluid in the future, you can send a sample to Terry Dyson. However, as undummy said, an expert isn't needed to know that the fluid needed changing. Terry will also make recommendations to give the lowest wear possible.

 

[youdontwannaknow]

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youdontwannaknow wrote:

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wow.

I highly encourage you to send this report to BMW and demand(!) a response.

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Maybe theydontwannaknow! (sorry that one was begging for a call

)

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[Travis99LS1]

for what its worth...The new 6 speed ZF transmission-GA6HP26Z in the 7 series..and some of the 5 series...calls for 100K mile change intervals..So maybe there's some hope that they will stop lifetime fills in some of there other transmissions as well.

 

[shanneba]

BMW changed the AT fluid change interval in the 5 spd E46 series in 2003 to 100,000 miles acording to the BMW NA owners circle maintanence schedule.

ZF lists a normal service interval with 14B (semi synthetic fluid) of 60,000 KM or two years. The BMW fluid is listed as a 14B class fluid.

For the 14C full synthetic fluid ZF shows a 120,000 KM or two year fluid change interval.

 

[Blue T]

Note that ZF lubrication list 14 (TE-ML 14) is for commercial vehicles - things like city busses and garbage trucks. The mileage limits that shanneba quoted are for city busses. List 14C only has 5 fluids listed and, as shanneba said, they all appear to be full synthetic (PAO) fluids. Two of the 5 are TES-295 approved fluids. ZF list TE-ML 11 is for passenger car transmissions and there are no mileage limits given on that list.

 

[G-MAN]

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This is not an engine oil UOA. And, if your engine oil had wear that high after a tank of gas, you have bigger problems.

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[wquiles]

This is the sample I took a 1000 miles after the first service - just 2/3 of the old fluid was changed.

Note how the older high amounts of Al and insolubles are now much smaller. And note that this was after I changed just 2/3 of the old fluid. Since then I have done the second service and now the fluid is 8/9 new and 1/9 old. When I do the next service I will then have a good point of reference to see how the 8/9 new fluid is doing (which so far has 2700 miles since the 2nd service - still working perfectly as before).

Note also how Iron, Copper, Lead, and other metals are now in a much lower concentration: the fluid is definitely a lot less abrasive now than it was before.

I asked Blackstone labs, and they mentioned that the higher numbers for Boron, Calcium, and Phosphorous are due to the different chemical composition of the new mix with a higher concentration of Valvoline MaxLife.

 

[unDummy]

The power of a simple drain/refill. Just imagine how low the wear numbers would be with 3-4 simple drain/refills during the original 87k run.

Nice solid additive package for an ATF. No wonder why so many like Maxlife.

 

[Bror Jace]

"The power of a simple drain/refill. Just imagine how low the wear numbers would be with 3-4 simple drain/refills during the original 87k run."

Exactly. Lifetime fills are for people who believe that everything has a (more or less) set service life and no amount of TLC will change this. Some people just don't care enough to go that extra mile (or yard!) to take care of their stuff ... clothes, appliances, cars, etc ...

So, we have companies, including car companies, that play into this over-simplified minset for the sake of convenience marketing.

Woe to the person who buys these non-maintained vehicles with 80,000-100,000 miles on them.