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#540322 - 12/28/02 02:13 PM lubricated studs and torque values
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
To make a long story short I had an unpleasant experience hand changing a tire a few days before Christmas. The next day with plugged tire in hand I antiseized and torqued the offending wheel to specifications.

Yesterday I was working on my F-150 and needed a torque value and noticed standard torque values for a dry and lubricated fastener are different.

Is antiseize acceptable for wheels studs?
(I never see tire shops use it.)

Should I still follow OEM torque values after using antiseize on a wheel studs?

Why the difference between dry and lubricated torque values? For example from a John Deere operators manual torque chart an 18 mm class 12.9 fastener calls for 440 N.m lubricated or 560 N.m dry.

What do you use antiseize on?

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#540323 - 12/29/02 12:04 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
dragboat Offline


Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Oklahoma
Neil I used anti-seize on exhaust nuts and bolts only. On wheel studs I use motor oil,3n1 oil or ATF just whatever is handy or within reach.

FWIW Race motors are built with motor oil only when it comes to rod bolts,the main stud nuts ect and lubing them gives a more correct value which is only stretching the threads when it's said and done.I have a tool that measures the rod bolt stretch so there is no guessing there,still lubed with oil though
Within one week of buying our latest new car all exhaust bolts,nuts and related hardware were removed and antiseized ,the spark plugs were removed and oil placed on the threads "aluminum head " just because have been there before with broken bolts and taps ect later in the years of ownership. It is so easy now,much harder later. I call it preventive cussing [Smile]

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#540324 - 12/29/02 06:13 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
TheLoneRanger Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1504
Loc: Southeast United States
Dragboat, that's good PM on a new car. Especially on the exhaust headerpipe bolts. I salute you. [Patriot]

I have always used motor oil and/or STP on fasteners that are inside engines. Never anti-seize. However, on most outside bolts I do use anti-seize. The A-S is good where you are fastening dissimiliar metals, such as iron and aluminum, or screwing a steel bolt into aluminum.

I also use anti-seize on lug bolts (especially on the tapered flange), and torque to 80-90 ft lbs. I feel this gives a more uniform clamping force to the wheel and hub, than would torqueing them dry.

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#540325 - 12/29/02 05:28 PM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
porterdog Offline


Registered: 10/24/02
Posts: 294
Loc: Detroit (Rock City)
Too funny. There was just a huge uproar on an Audi list I follow arguing _against_ anti-sieze on lug nuts. It got a little rabid...

FWIW, I use it and apply a thin coat to the wheel mounting surface as well. In my salty winter climate, it helps to keep the rims from being corroded on.

Robert

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#540326 - 12/29/02 05:48 PM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
OneQuartLow Offline


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 874
Loc: Pacific NW
Yep, when people first learn things there isn't much flexibility. Service manuals must not be disobeyed.

Dragboat, excellent strategy. Don't forget the dielectric for the plug boots! [Smile]

David

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#540327 - 12/30/02 12:36 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
Ken2 Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 6380
Loc: Washington St.
Lug bolt threads must not be lubed, just because we don't have torque specs for lubed threads. Tightening a bolt is friction of the thread and the face of the nut + stretching the bolt. If we reduce the friction, and we do want the same amount of stretch, we need to reduce the torque.

Yes, the torque spec is less for lubed threads, but that varies by the type of surface on the thread (plated or not and plated with what?) and the type of lube.

Truck wheels with flat faced lug nuts can take a drop of oil on that flat face.

Ken

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#540328 - 12/30/02 05:19 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
Neil Womack Offline


Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 718
Loc: Central Texas
So much to learn. So little time.

Thanks for the education.

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#540329 - 12/30/02 06:30 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
mdv Offline


Registered: 10/24/02
Posts: 524
Loc: MA
I understand why lubing the stud and using a dry torque setting isn't accurate, but what's the lubricity of anti-seize? I've never looked at it as a lubricant, but as more of a corrosion inhibitor.

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#540330 - 12/30/02 08:32 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
Ken2 Offline


Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 6380
Loc: Washington St.
Very good lubrication in a slow speed, high pressure type of application.

Ken

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#540331 - 12/30/02 08:43 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
OneQuartLow Offline


Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 874
Loc: Pacific NW
Ken, I'd be happier if people just used consistent torque. Every single time a friend comes to me for help after having a free balance or alignment I end up finding insane wheel installs. Missing lugnuts, ruined covers from impact wrenches and improper socket sizes, cross-threaded nuts, you name it. I don't know if these stores are getting bad help or giving bad training, but if anti-seize were the biggest problem it'd be a good day. Myself, for vehicles in harsh or salted conditions, I use a little to slow corrosion and just go to the light end of the range. Suppose I wouldn't teach it in an ASE class but then I don't teach. [Smile]

David

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#540332 - 01/01/03 07:38 PM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
TheLoneRanger Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 1504
Loc: Southeast United States
I recently bought an Explorer that had the infamous Firestone tire recall. The first thing I did was to loosen and retorque the wheels,to prevent possible rotor warping. I couldn't believe how tight the lugs were. I had to use a breaker bar and a sledgehammer to get them loose. I figure the tire shop that did the recall work was so afraid of liability, they super-tightened the lugs. In my opinion, this gave a greater chance of the lug bolts snapping off because of the higher torque, than ever coming loose.

I applied a small amount of anti-seize, and retorqued all the lugs to 80-85 ft lbs.
[Smile]

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#540333 - 01/03/03 06:43 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
Pete Offline


Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 158
Loc: Greater Hartford, CT
Isn't there a difference between starting friction and moving friction?

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#540334 - 04/21/03 08:41 PM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
labman Offline


Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 8711
Loc: Nothern USA
Yes Pete. The physics books call it static and dynamic friction. It takes more force to over come friction to start something moving, than to keep it moving.

This question is something I have long wondered about. I am quick to squirt a little oil on things I expect to be removing again, especially wheel studs. For things subject to heat, I take the time and mess to use anti seize. I am much quicker to use oil or antiseize with studs and tapped holes. Brake bleed screws get silicon grease. I once worked for a man that insisted there is no such thing as an Easy Out.

I am driving a 26 year old truck and have kept my last 3 cars 10 years or more. I use lots of antiseize. It makes taking mufflers off much easier.

No mater what the manual says, I am oiling my wheel studs. Is the suggested 80 - 85 lb ft lubricated a good substitute for the 100 lb ft dry often specified? It is hard to find out the finish and type of plating if any.

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#540335 - 04/22/03 03:44 AM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
9c1 Offline


Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 323
Loc: Berwyn, IL
I discovered anti-seize about 20 years ago and have used it consistently on all my vehicles since. I DO instruct automotive courses, and we use it religiously on wheel studs. Reduce the torque by 10-15 fl/lbs if you wish, but I personally don't. I use 100 ft/lbs on passenger car steel wheels and have never had any stud or nut issues.
A little anti-seize goes a long way, and this is a case of more is not better. Use some on the center locating hole of wheels, especially alloy wheels. Wheels want to stick to the hub with only a little corrosion in the center.
BTW: We do teach the students to use a torque wrench. We do not even have torque sticks in the shop. They learn all their bad habits once they leave us.
Use the high-temp anti seize (copper colored) on the exhaust fasteners.

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#540336 - 04/22/03 05:54 PM Re: lubricated studs and torque values
Mike_dup1 Offline


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 3013
Loc: USA-Michigan
quote:
NEVER USE LUBRICANTS OR PENETRATING OILS ON WHEEL STUDS, NUTS OR MOUNTING SURFACES, AS THIS CAN RAISE THE ACTUAL TORQUE ON THE NUT WITHOUT CORRESPONDING TORQUE READING ON THE TORQUE WRENCH. WHEEL NUTS, STUDS AND MOUNTING SURFACES MUST BE CLEAN AND DRY. FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS COULD RESULT IN WHEEL, NUT, AND/OR STUD FAILURE
BTW-This is from a 2002 GM service manual


Also you should never use penetrating oils on frozen wheel studs or anywhere on the wheel mounting surfaces. This oil will migrate and could result in failure of the wheel or the wheel studs. Also never use heat.

If you have done this (lubed your wheel studs in any manner), go and correct this ASAP.

[ April 23, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Mike ]

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