Why Does NV4500 Spec. A "Special" Fluid?

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Here's something I can't understand.

In regards to New Venture light-truck transmissions, the NV 1500, 3500, and 5600 series units specify a 5w-30 engine oil.

BUT, the NV4500 specifies a GL-4 gear oil?

Why??
 
Jelly, maybe because the NV 4500 is used in heavy duty trucks and maybe the GL-4 fluid will provide better protection. It is 75W-85W oil also. Redline told me to mix MTL and MT-90 (50-50) to get the required viscosity. These manual gear boxes and all the different fluids gets confusing at times.
 
quote:

Originally posted by mikeyoilnutt:
Jelly, maybe because the NV 4500 is used in heavy duty trucks and maybe the GL-4 fluid will provide better protection. It is 75W-85W oil also. Redline told me to mix MTL and MT-90 (50-50) to get the required viscosity. These manual gear boxes and all the different fluids gets confusing at times.

First off, thanks Mike for the reply.

Replying to your post though, I can't buy the GL-4 providing better protection...the NV5600 is a heavier-duty unit, and it specs. 5w-30 engine oil!

And yes, I agree with you...all the different fluids for some of these manual transmissions gets very confusing. For instance, with the T56 transmission, two different manufacturers using the same exact transmission (GM and Dodge) specify two completly different lubes.

Here is a Tremec lube guide:
The following types of lube are recommended:
TR-3550/TKO - GM Synchromesh or Dextron III
TR-3650/T-45/T-5 - Dextron III
T-56 (Ford and GM) - Dextron III
T-56 (Viper only) - Castrol Syntorque

[ March 12, 2004, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Jelly ]
 
Anytime a company breaks away from established fluids it sets of warning bells in my head! If they need a special fluid to make a transmission last or shift well then they did something wrong! I suspect that cost cutting on materials made this happen. Seeing how their have been hundreds if not thousands of manual transmissions designed aroung GL4 and GL5 fluids. In most causes they all shifted fine and had good life expectancy if servived.

I could see if motor oil or transmission fluid solved some problem that was not answered by gear lube but that is not the case.

Personely I have always thought that it was odd that some companys demand either GL4 or GL5 while other do not care if it GL4 or GL5!

I also think that this is a greater issue with vechiles not intended as global vechiles!
 
I'm running straight MT-90 in my NV4500, I'd didn't know Redline recommended the mix. I previously had run Amsoil S2K 75W-90(that's what was recommended), and shifting was terrible with this stuff. The Redline has improved that dramatically. Next drain I'll use the mix. I'd run the Castrol Syntorq LT if it wasn't so expensive and so hard to find. $25+ a quart at a dealership.

The most common problem with the NV4500 on the Cummins diesel is the 5th gear nut backing off. They say this is caused by lugging, and recommend a minimum of 1700 engine RPM while in that gear. Fliud temp must be an issue also, aftermarket extruded aluminum "fast coolers" are available for the PTO covers that add 2 additional quarts, and some even fabricate pipe extensions to the filler plug to add yet another quart of fluid to it.

The factory fluid in the NV5600 is supposedly "fill for life", but most diesel owners do not have good results shifting, until they drain that and use Redline MTL.

As I understand it, GL-4 lubes contain 1/2 the zinc and phosphorus amounts that GL-5 lubes have. Phosphorus apparently attacks yellow metals, and the synchros need a certain amount of traction for proper function.

[ March 13, 2004, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Rebel Rouser ]
 
HD transmissions, such as Eaton Fuller and RoadRanger, almost always specify an SAE 50 motor oil rated CD for maximum compatibility with the synchronizers used in those transmissions.

Of course, you know what would happen if you used an SAE 50 in temps colder than +10 F, right?

Traditionally you were prohibited from using any GL-5 gear oil due to the sulfur-phosphorous additive package.

Recently, gear oils have been cross-graded to claim compatibility with gear synchro's, such as the GL-5/MT-1 oils.

For maximum life, many HD makers still specify a GL-4 oil. I run Mobil MobilTrans SHC 50 in my Eaton RoadRanger units with excellent results.

The SHC 50 is fully synthetic, claims full compatibility with synchro's, and meets the Eaton extended drain / extended warranty requirements.

I have used this product in a 1990 Toyota 4Runner with 5 spd, as the transmission specified a GL-4 oil. Good results there too.

The only problem is that the Mobil MobilTrans SHC 50 smallest container is a 5 g pail, not very handy for infrequent oil changes.

Jerry
 
Molakule, If the Z,S,P additives in GL4 are 1/2 to 2/3 that of a GL5 how do we get dual rated products?
 
quote:

As I understand it, GL-4 lubes contain 1/2 the zinc and phosphorus amounts that GL-5 lubes have. Phosphorus apparently attacks yellow metals, and the synchros need a certain amount of traction for proper function.

The Zinc-Sulfur-Phosphorus package in GL4 lubes is 1/2 to 2/3 the level of the GL5 lubes.

The difference in add levels is due to the fact that manual transmissions don't need as high a level of EP adds for the spur gearing, whereas hypoid differentials need extra EP because of their high loads and extensive shearing actions.

Most gear lubes today use the "non-reactive" sulfur-phosphate packages.

By "non-reactive," we mean that the sulfur is not just 'elemental' sulfur dissolved in oil, which would react with the metal to stain and corrode it.

Rather, the new S-P add packages are esterified (incorporated in fats) S-P's. These only react under pressure/heat of shearing and loads to form FeP and FeS EP surfaces films to prevent galling and wear. TBN boosters (TAN reducers), antioxidants, metal deactivators, and rust inhibitors are also incorporated to prevent acid buildup and to protect from rust.

The new ester packages do not stain or corrode copper alloy metals such as brass or bronze.

Special Friction Modifiers insure proper engagement of the synchros.

[ March 13, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
Keep in mind that HD transmissions do not have synchronizers. This is why you double clutch or "float" the gears.
I would use what the mfg. recommends. I have a NV3500 in a 2001 Dodge 1500 and have no issues with the transmission or the "Synchromesh" oil that's recommended by Chrysler, other than the cost. BTW, Chrysler says this is "lifetime" fluid, but I saw some metal filings on the magnetic drain plug when I changed mine at 25,000 miles.
cheers.gif
 
Right, HD trans do NOT have synchros. DOuble clutching is an art, isn't it?

However, Mobil MobilTrans SHC 50 claims it's suitable for synchros. The GL-4 claims to not have the sulfur-phosphorous that could attack synchro's in LD transmissions.

Again, I used the commercial SHC 50 in my 1990 4Runner trans for 10 years and it worked very well. I'd change the fluid every couple of years.

Jerry
 
My father and I both owned mid 80s GM 4X4s with NP trannies, both were prone to bearing problems. after a clutch swap my brother put really heavy gear(85-140 or something I am sure of the 140 part) lube in my Dad's, seized a gear right to the shaft. It meant it when it called for ATF.

I know of some people who tried 5w30 in a T56 and pretty quickly went back to ATF I think it had to do with the syncros. Lets face it materials change, modern manual gear boxes are complicated more so than old ones they must have some reason for a fluid recommendation and ingoring that can cost a good chunk of change.
 
quote:

Molakule, If the Z,S,P additives in GL4 are 1/2 to 2/3 that of a GL5 how do we get dual rated products?

GL5 dual rated products simply means that it is supposed to be backward compatible and that the GL5 Z-S-P add pack is more than sufficient for GL4.

The problem is, the GL5 usually contains thickeners and tackifiers that might make shifting more difficult in cold weather for a purely rated GL4. In my view, only a full synthetic, properly formulated GL5 could have a dual rating.
 
04 2500 Dodge 4x4 HO Cummins, Man. Trans. NV 5600 ( 6 Spd 9.5 pts/5 qts)

MOPAR Manual Fluid 4874464
Amsoil Recommends Series 3000 5w-30 HD Diesel Oil (yeah right!
lol.gif
)

Redline recommended and I run REDLINE MTL. Changed at 6800 miles and will change every 15k when I change frt & rear end fluids, as Schedule B states. Yeah, I know it's suppose to be a fill for life, but why not change it if I'm already under the vehicle anyhow, along with the transfer case? Still doesn't shift right (gear clash) when cold, but slicker than butter when hot!

[ March 18, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: rossn2 ]
 
quote:

Still doesn't shift right (gear clash) when cold, but slicker than butter when hot!

I have the NV3550 that calls for the same fluid, 4874464, and it behaves the same. Once hot it shifts great... No significant difference than the Mopar stuff when it comes to shifting but I think it has to provide better protection than the factory mystery stuff (judging from the VOA that have been posted).
 
I have the NV4500 in my Dodge truck and will stick with the recommended fluid when I do my flush. The Mopar fluid is evidently Castrol Syntorque, which seems to be used more in Europe in gearboxes than in the the US, but can be found at Standard Transmission & Gear. I recall that one gentleman was able to order it from Castrol, once they figured out what it was.
 
best deal I've found was gmpartsdirect $11.51 a quart

gm 12346190

It was $55 for 4 quarts delivered
 
quote:

Originally posted by rossn2:

Amsoil Recommends Series 3000 5w-30 HD Diesel Oil (yeah right!
lol.gif
)


I'm not sure what the joke is, but I'm happy running that Amsoil in my CTD Dodge w/ NV5600. Its smoother all across the board compared to the original stuff.
 
http://www.upmpg.com/lubricationnews/new_synthetic_manual_transmission_transaxle_oil.htm

"AMSOIL Synthetic 75W-90 Manual Transmission and Transaxle Gear Lube (MTG) is designed to meet the special requirements of certain manual transmissions and transaxles, such as the New Venture NV 4500"

Meets:

GM #12346190
Chrysler #4874459

Searching the net I have found Standard Transmission to be a source for the Castrol Syntorque, they now sell Amsoil NTG (likely a misprint, should be M instead of N) at the bottom of their "Dodge w/Cummins diesel" (after clicking "products" on main page) http://www.standardtransmission.com
 
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The GL-4 gear lube recommended for the NV4500 is because of the synchros utilized in the transmission as well as the case being cast iron which holds in heat. I'm not sure that I agree with this but that is the reason from the engineer at NV. As for the NV1500, 3500, 5600 and others they can use many different oils and survive well. Some auto makers call for ATF in them when others call for a synchromesh type fluid and if used in severe duty such as in a Viper instead of a truck they recommend GL-4 gear lube. ATF's are recommended for product consolidation and nothing more. NV knows that a properly formulated synthetic product will provide better shifting and wear protection than ATF's. Rossn2 laughs at AMSOIL for at one time recommending a top quality 5W-30 motor oil, however that has not been the case for about 4 years now. That recommendation was not far from right on since the synchromesh fluid is a 5W-30 semi-syn with motor oil additives plus .33 to .88 sulfur phos EP additive. AMSOIL now recommends their MTF synchromesh type oil for those transmissions listed except the NV4500 where they recommend MTG GL-4 gear lube.
 
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