Is it a myth that ZDDP can eat CATs?

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For example. If choosing an oil that has "elevated ZDDP levels." such as QS Defy, or something else (Royal Purple High Performance Street Synerlec + ZDDP, maybe) - One reviewer on Amazon.com says that they can't see how ZDDP would damage a catalytic converter unless there was "a large oil leak," and says that Royal Purple "Synerlec" is a "sulfurized esther." Is that a good thing?

Just doing some research, and might, *MIGHT* switch the oil to GC (German Castrol).. Considering some options. Thanks!

6 quarts German Castrol - ~$45
12 quarts Royal Purple HS w/Synerlec - double
...
 
$45 will buy you 13 quarts of Mag1 5w30 full synthetic on Amazon. Your engine won't notice the difference unless you are a NASCAR driver on the weekends. ZDDP will clog the CAT from what I understand.
 
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Somehow "extending the efficiency life of the cat" morphed to "eating cats". Oil additives can influence catalyst efficiency over time. Thats all there is to it.
 
A lot of people like to run high ZDDP oil on their Jeep 4.0s because of the flat tappet cam. I do too ... because it makes me feel a bit better. In all reality, there's millions of flat tappet cam 4.0s that made it to 400k without wearing the lobes off.

To be honest, I have never heard of a 4.0 or 258 wearing off the cam lobes like the SBC.
 
phosphorous and zinc can poison the catalyst. Clog is a term used incorrectly.

You need to understand heterogeneous catalysis first - chemical reactions that are facilitated by some kind of active surface (thus heterogeneous, as opposed to homogeneous where there is some kind of other propagation method for driving the reaction). So there are LOTS of surface sites that could possibly be used to catalyze a chemical reaction. Different sites may have differing accessibility, due to porosity and placement of the active component. Typically the active component, like a precious metal in a catalytic converter is dispersed and "supported" on a "support", like the corderite honeycomb inside the converter.

So you have these sites, some are inside pores of the support, some are on top. How well the reaction occurs depends upon how active the catalyst is, and how easy it is for compounds you are reacting to reach the catalytic sites.

So you can do two things - (1) chemically poison sites, through compounds that create non-catalytic versions of the active metal. Things like sulfides of platinum. Chemicals like sulfur and phosphorous are good at poisoning catalytic sites. Or, you can do (2) clog or cover the sites that are present so that they are no longer accessible for reaction. This could be due to a lot of oil, soot or other things inside the converter.

#1 is not reversible unless you can reduce the catalyst to bare metal at VERY high heat in hydrogen.

#2 some people claim to be able to fix to some extent by either washing with soap (degrease) or burning some compound (like lacquer thinner) that makes the car spit out lots of HCs, heat up the converter and try to burn it off. Both are risky because additional chemicals can create other non-active variants of the precious metals, like chlorides and phosphates, and excess temperature can either oxidize or sinter the metals, as well as crack the support, causing its efficacy to be poor.

Metallic adds in oils, if the oil is burned and sent through, can plug and coat catalyst sites and pores where active sites ma be present. Just like soot or hydrocarbons. But generally the concern is about poisoning.

You only theoretically need x catalyst to do the cleanup of a three-way converter. However there is an assumption of burned oil, life degradation, growth and agglomeration of catalyst particles, etc., so the converter is loaded with x+y amount of catalyst so that it will perform through warranty. THis is part of the reason why EPA/CARB approved converters cost more, since they have more metal... and why the $50 converters from mineke barely allow you to pass when they are brand new (poorly made catalyst, with minimal loaded content into the converter).

Hope this helps.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
phosphorous and zinc can poison the catalyst. Clog is a term used incorrectly.

You need to understand heterogeneous catalysis first - chemical reactions that are facilitated by some kind of active surface (thus heterogeneous, as opposed to homogeneous where there is some kind of other propagation method for driving the reaction). So there are LOTS of surface sites that could possibly be used to catalyze a chemical reaction. Different sites may have differing accessibility, due to porosity and placement of the active component. Typically the active component, like a precious metal in a catalytic converter is dispersed and "supported" on a "support", like the corderite honeycomb inside the converter.

So you have these sites, some are inside pores of the support, some are on top. How well the reaction occurs depends upon how active the catalyst is, and how easy it is for compounds you are reacting to reach the catalytic sites.

So you can do two things - (1) chemically poison sites, through compounds that create non-catalytic versions of the active metal. Things like sulfides of platinum. Chemicals like sulfur and phosphorous are good at poisoning catalytic sites. Or, you can do (2) clog or cover the sites that are present so that they are no longer accessible for reaction. This could be due to a lot of oil, soot or other things inside the converter.

#1 is not reversible unless you can reduce the catalyst to bare metal at VERY high heat in hydrogen.

#2 some people claim to be able to fix to some extent by either washing with soap (degrease) or burning some compound (like lacquer thinner) that makes the car spit out lots of HCs, heat up the converter and try to burn it off. Both are risky because additional chemicals can create other non-active variants of the precious metals, like chlorides and phosphates, and excess temperature can either oxidize or sinter the metals, as well as crack the support, causing its efficacy to be poor.

Metallic adds in oils, if the oil is burned and sent through, can plug and coat catalyst sites and pores where active sites ma be present. Just like soot or hydrocarbons. But generally the concern is about poisoning.

You only theoretically need x catalyst to do the cleanup of a three-way converter. However there is an assumption of burned oil, life degradation, growth and agglomeration of catalyst particles, etc., so the converter is loaded with x+y amount of catalyst so that it will perform through warranty. THis is part of the reason why EPA/CARB approved converters cost more, since they have more metal... and why the $50 converters from mineke barely allow you to pass when they are brand new (poorly made catalyst, with minimal loaded content into the converter).

Hope this helps.



Great, complete answer! Enjoyed reading it.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
phosphorous and zinc can poison the catalyst. Clog is a term used incorrectly.

You need to understand heterogeneous catalysis first - chemical reactions that are facilitated by some kind of active surface (thus heterogeneous, as opposed to homogeneous where there is some kind of other propagation method for driving the reaction). So there are LOTS of surface sites that could possibly be used to catalyze a chemical reaction. Different sites may have differing accessibility, due to porosity and placement of the active component. Typically the active component, like a precious metal in a catalytic converter is dispersed and "supported" on a "support", like the corderite honeycomb inside the converter.

So you have these sites, some are inside pores of the support, some are on top. How well the reaction occurs depends upon how active the catalyst is, and how easy it is for compounds you are reacting to reach the catalytic sites.

So you can do two things - (1) chemically poison sites, through compounds that create non-catalytic versions of the active metal. Things like sulfides of platinum. Chemicals like sulfur and phosphorous are good at poisoning catalytic sites. Or, you can do (2) clog or cover the sites that are present so that they are no longer accessible for reaction. This could be due to a lot of oil, soot or other things inside the converter.

#1 is not reversible unless you can reduce the catalyst to bare metal at VERY high heat in hydrogen.

#2 some people claim to be able to fix to some extent by either washing with soap (degrease) or burning some compound (like lacquer thinner) that makes the car spit out lots of HCs, heat up the converter and try to burn it off. Both are risky because additional chemicals can create other non-active variants of the precious metals, like chlorides and phosphates, and excess temperature can either oxidize or sinter the metals, as well as crack the support, causing its efficacy to be poor.

Metallic adds in oils, if the oil is burned and sent through, can plug and coat catalyst sites and pores where active sites ma be present. Just like soot or hydrocarbons. But generally the concern is about poisoning.

You only theoretically need x catalyst to do the cleanup of a three-way converter. However there is an assumption of burned oil, life degradation, growth and agglomeration of catalyst particles, etc., so the converter is loaded with x+y amount of catalyst so that it will perform through warranty. THis is part of the reason why EPA/CARB approved converters cost more, since they have more metal... and why the $50 converters from mineke barely allow you to pass when they are brand new (poorly made catalyst, with minimal loaded content into the converter).

Hope this helps.



Great, complete answer! Enjoyed reading it.


thumbsup2.gif
 
It's interesting that the OEMS are pushing lower SAPS, while still maintaining that 1qt/1,000 miles is "normal" and acceptable.

That's a lot of additive to pass through it.

If you have any reasonable level of oil consumption, I wouldn't worry about SAPS too much.
 
We got just under 200k miles on our cat on a 2000 SSEI and it always passed SMOG with great numbers. I used oil with 1200 to 1400 ppm of phos/zinc and the cat started to rattle so that is why we changed it out. If you don't use oil you won't foul the cat, now if you have a car like some Honda S2000's that can use 1 qt. every 1000 miles, that could foul the cat and make you fail SMOG. My '06 S2000 doesn't use any oil and I use high phos/zinc oil in it and have passed SMOG twice with very low numbers and that is with 80k+ miles on it.
 
So I have an old 97 kia that seem to burn huge amounts of oil.
A quart a month on very low miles.
I put in some defy 10-40 as it was cheap
Do I have a problem?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's interesting that the OEMS are pushing lower SAPS, while still maintaining that 1qt/1,000 miles is "normal" and acceptable.

That's a lot of additive to pass through it.

If you have any reasonable level of oil consumption, I wouldn't worry about SAPS too much.


Metals prices are way up and warranties are being required to go longer. How to you shave money? Remove SAPS. Then even if you still consume 1L/1000mi, which is probably based upon the economics of warranty replacements, youre degrading less.
 
JMH, I get it...just tickles my funny bone...that and the 40 weights were immune from SAPS reductions from the API.

(With DPF in Oz, they have caught up, and are going low SAPS).
 
Well its the API... How many new cars are specified with a 40wt oil as their fill?

Not many.

So I suppose it is a practical choice as it hits as many vehicles as possible for maximum effect, while minimizing the issues for vehicles that NEED a heavier oil, which also tend to be specialty, expensive cars that can still make a profit with $100 more PM in the converter...
 
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