"Trimer" moly and Moly Disulphide

[Shannow]

Have read through this a few times...
http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...logy%202009.pdf

And aside from being a good, interesting read, am pondering the soluble moly versus moly disulphide.

From the article, as I understand it, at the "activation point", MoS2 is produced, and it's the MOS2 that is responsible for the friction reduction.

Is this correct ?

Is the MoS2 the actual target with these soluble molies, but the delivery is so precise, and in molecular sized rather than milled (filterable) sizes ?

Is the MoS2 produced adherent, or circulating ?

If so, would MoS2, in truly tiny sizes be suitable, assuming that another anti-oxidant technology was adopted (i.e. the trimer anti-oxidant effect was not there) ?

 

[Clevy]

So what does this say in relation to for example the liqui-moly MOS2 additive. I know from experience it lowers friction in everything I've ever used it in but the trimmer moly seems effective at far less of a dose.
Can someone translate this into English for regular people please.
And thanks for the post Shannow

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


From the article, as I understand it, at the "activation point", MoS2 is produced, and it's the MOS2 that is responsible for the friction reduction.

Is this correct ?

Is the MoS2 the actual target with these soluble molies, but the delivery is so precise, and in molecular sized rather than milled (filterable) sizes ?

Is the MoS2 produced adherent, or circulating ?

If so, would MoS2, in truly tiny sizes be suitable, assuming that another anti-oxidant technology was adopted (i.e. the trimer anti-oxidant effect was not there) ?


Yes, the soluble moly is activated to form MoS2, directly analogous to the activation of the ZDDP forming PZnFe glass anti-wear layers.

The soluble moly forms MoS2 molecules that are incorporated into the PZnFe glass ZDDP anti-wear layer. The presence of the MoS2 in the structure results in a lower friction anti-wear coating. This is taking place at the molecular level

It's adherent, as it's incorporated directly into the molecular structure of the anti-wear layer.

I think any solid form, regardless of the size, is working as an "external" lubricant. It doesn't become part of the chemical makeup of the anti-wear layers. That's not to say it's not an effective lubricant in that form. I prefer the soluble type as it's designed to work as an inherent part of the chemistry, rather than being an additional lubricant added that may or may not affect the normal formation of the anti-wear layers as anticipated by the manufacturer.

Ed

 

[MolaKule]

See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.

 

[Shannow]

Thanks guys, making sense...

However, Page three is mentioned that the structure of the trimer is "layered" similar to MoS2...is that the undissolved additive, or do they "clump" in the oil.

Does the MoS2 layer in the adherent layer ?

 

[JAG]

In this article, it states that MoS2 layers formed on the top of the tribofilm when MoDTC and ZDDP were in the oil. The additives are synergistic. Article

 

[Shannow]

Sweet, thanks gents.

 

[Shannow]

More moly/zinc interaction in this paper

www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/report/e-report/00E115e.pdf

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.


Right, which should stop folks from thinking "more the better!". That's obviously not how things work.

 

[friendly_jacek]

The benefits of Moly are self evident. What is interesting how Moly is replaced by Boron, Titanium or some other EW agents in many modern motor oils formulations. Is Boron better?

I found some patents from Caterpillar showing that Boron, combined with the conventional additives gives the highest EP protection. Not sure how much of that applies to motor oils.

 

[edhackett]

Oil formulators have a number of equally effective additives available to them. Molybdenum is expensive right now. Titanium and boron based additives may be easier to source and cheaper to purchase than molybdenum based additives.

Ed

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.


Right, which should stop folks from thinking "more the better!". That's obviously not how things work.


But in the Infineum presentation, it is shown on page 8 that friction reduction occurs at a 20C lower temperature (80C vs 100C) with a concentration of 200 ppm. But by 140C, the average friction coefficient is nearly the same. And the shape of the curves makes me wonder if the 75 ppm would have lower friction than the 200 ppm at 160C.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.


Very nice. Relative to that graph, 80ppm level has a good buffer of wear protection.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.


Very nice. Relative to that graph, 80ppm level has a good buffer of wear protection.


Moly is but one friction reducer in formulated oils. It is not an anti-wear component.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
See slide 10.

Now you know why you see about 80 ppm of moly in most OTC oils today.


Very nice. Relative to that graph, 80ppm level has a good buffer of wear protection.


Moly is but one friction reducer in formulated oils. It is not an anti-wear component.

Now I'm really confused. I was under the impression that it was both AW and FM, no?

 

[MolaKule]

Latest research says MoDTC is a primarily a Friction Reducer.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Latest research says MoDTC is a primarily a Friction Reducer.


Slide 11 (page 12) seems to contradict this. It shows sequence IV-A wear reduction being dramatic between 10ppm and 50ppm of tri-nuclear Moly.

Help me understand. I always thought that Mo in amounts up to 75ppm acted synergistically with ZDP/ZDDP as both a FM and AW additive, but any level above 75ppm was just for FM.

 

[vo_marz]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Latest research says MoDTC is a primarily a Friction Reducer.


Slide 11 (page 12) seems to contradict this. It shows sequence IV-A wear reduction being dramatic between 10ppm and 50ppm of tri-nuclear Moly.

Help me understand. I always thought that Mo in amounts up to 75ppm acted synergistically with ZDP/ZDDP as both a FM and AW additive, but any level above 75ppm was just for FM.



moly maybe as an overbased FM , boosts the ZDDPs AW ability hence the low wear numbers.

Kinda like a buff in WOW speak.

maybe on its own it doesnt have any AW properties.