Alternative Detergents "Sodium"

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MolaKule

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by permission of the author, Molekule

Another reader sent me some excellent questions about sodium showing up in formulations and I thought some notes here might clarify the source of this "Sodium Epic"
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and to help us to explain the appearance of sodium when a new analysis thread pops up about sodium and alternative detergents.
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Also please read http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=530321#Post530321 Post 530330

Just as compounds of Titanium, Boron, Molybdenum, and Antimony are replacing high levels of ZDDP as Anti-wear (AW) agents, sodium and even potassium metal compounds are being used as alternatives or adjuncts to calcium compounds.

Some of the past formula's in diesel oils made extensive use of calcium/magesium compounds as detergents/dispersants and a few still do.

Magnesium is harder than either sodium or calcium and thus leaves a more tenacious ash than does the softer calcium, potassium and sodium.

Similar to Calcium, Sodium is another soft metal, a highly reactive alkali metal, that is showing up in many formulations these days as additions to calcium compounds. Many formulators are using the sodium packages as co-detergents.

Just a calcium detergents are either of the the calcium sulfonate or calcium salicyillate type, sodium detergents can also be sodium sulfonates or sodium salicyillates.

There are other compounds of sodium that are also useful as oil additives and which may be part of the Performance Improvement (basic PI additive package) as well. These may contribute to the sodium readings found in many oil analysies

Sodium 2-mercaptobenzothiazole can be used as a metal deactivator to keep metals from reacting with other compounds, and to help retard oxidation.

Some sodium compounds such as sodium dibutyl dithiocarbamate SDDC) are used as another anti-wear agent in lieu of conventional AW compounds. SDDC shows a low fricton coefficient with good polarity since being a dithio-type compound, has sulfur atoms for polarity enhancement.

Note: I predict the many forms of dibutyl dithiocarbamate's in ashless form will dominate the AW agent market in the future, and these will not show up in a $30.00 VOA or UOA's.

The bottom line is, which detergent is used in a formulation depends mainly on market forces such as the availability of a certain type in the market place. This does not imply that a formulation is better or worse or that you, the consumer is being shortchanged.
 
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Thank you for the education.

Lots of oils, that had no sodium in the past, appear now with the $30 UOA. These action packed sodium add packs are in Valvoline, Castrol and Mobil Super products....to name just a few.

The UOA's, with some of these APSAP, show stellar results in some vehicles and not so good in others. So I guess it depends on your driving habits, condition of your engine and the types of metals used in building your engine and the composition of seal materials....as so on.....
 
Quote:
The bottom line is, which detergent is used in a formulation depends mainly on market forces such as the availability of a certain type in the market place. This does not imply that a formulation is better or worse or that you, the consumer is being shortchanged.


Thanks Molekule!

Ashland is using about 300ppm of Na with low Ca. Mobil/Castrol are using Ca/Mg. SN formulations. SA for Mobil 1 is now .8.

Amsoil is using just Ca at about 3,800 ppm.
 
Just to clarify a bit,

Quote:
Sodium 2-mercaptobenzothiazole can be used as a metal deactivator to keep metals from reacting with other compounds, and to help retard oxidation.

Some sodium compounds such as sodium dibutyl dithiocarbamate SDDC) are used as another anti-wear agent in lieu of conventional AW compounds. SDDC shows a low fricton coefficient with good polarity since being a dithio-type compound, has sulfur atoms for polarity enhancement.



means that other sodium compounds, and not necessarily sodium detergent compounds, may contribute to the increased sodium values.
 
Mola, would SDDC with it's sulfur atoms not potentially deplete or shorten the life of the detergent additives in an oil?
The reason I ask is that Sustina is making a big deal about their ZP sulfur free AW additive that replaces the typical ZDDP/ZDTP that does contain sulfur as part of it's molecular structure.
 
Most likely Sustina is using the dibutyl dithiocarbamate's in ashless form and those new ionized veggy esters.

Quote:
Mola, would SDDC with it's sulfur atoms not potentially deplete or shorten the life of the detergent additives in an oil?


No because the the common detergent, the calcium sulfonates, have more sulfur than do the dithiocarbamates.
 
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Mola,
Is this why we seem to be seeing potassium in small amounts in many UOAs?
I tend to think either "coolant leak" or mere contamination of the oil bottling line plumbing or bulk storage or transfer vessels or of the sample.
Is this potassium really a remnant of the oil's add pack?
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Mola,
Is this why we seem to be seeing potassium in small amounts in many UOAs?
I tend to think either "coolant leak" or mere contamination of the oil bottling line plumbing or bulk storage or transfer vessels or of the sample.
Is this potassium really a remnant of the oil's add pack?



Thi is why one should have a New Oil or VOA analyis done before using a specific oil and or trying determine if you have a coolant leak.

This will give you a baseline for comparison.
 
I noticed that oils with sodium based additives have no Moly or Boron-based ones.

Is it fair to state that the sodium additives are also friction modifiers? How about interactions when mixed with traditional friction modifiers additives?

Thanks!!!
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I noticed that oils with sodium based additives have no Moly or Boron-based ones.

Is it fair to state that the sodium additives are also friction modifiers? How about interactions when mixed with traditional friction modifiers additives?

Thanks!!!


The calcium sulfonates and the calcium salicylates can also act as secondary friction modifiers but like the calcium compounds, are predominately detergents with basing capabilities to holf tbn.

I have seen MoDTC and Boron used with sodium compounds but in lessor amounts. If used judiciously, there should only be syngistic interactions.
 
Answer should have read:

The calcium sulfonates and the calcium salicylates can also act as secondary friction modifiers but like the sodium compounds, they are predominately detergents with basing capabilities to help tbn.

I have seen MoDTC and Boron used with sodium compounds but in lessor amounts. If used judiciously, there should only be syngistic interactions.
 
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