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Under a CR-V's valve cover #2635614 05/25/12 06:09 AM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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I removed the valve cover and checked the valve lash adjustment this morning on our 2008 CR-V. This is the 2.4L K24Z1 engine, and with right at 59,000 miles currently. Oil history: Valvoline white bottle from the dealer at intervals specified by the maintenance minder (about 7-8k miles each), from new until when I bought it with about 45,000 miles. When I bought it, I put in Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20, then Mobil 1 0W-20 at 50,000 miles, and Mobil 1 0W-20 again at 55,000 miles. So the oil you see in it is 4,000 mile old M1.

The camshaft lobes look great. You can see where the rollers roll on the lobes, but there's no real visible "wear" in terms of scarring, grooving, etc. The timing chain and tensioner guides also look like they're still new.





You can see how the 2-lobe version of VTEC works in this picture. The #1 cylinder (far left) is apparently on its intake stroke. The primary lobe (the big one) operates the right-hand intake valve and the secondary lobe (the skinny one) operates the left-hand intake valve. You can see the primary lobe has depressed its intake valve, but the intake valve under the secondary lobe doesn't appear to be open at all. In truth, it's cracked open slightly, but not hardly enough to even tell. Under 2,200 rpm, the two intake rocker arms are not connected, and the two intake valves operate independently. In essence, it operates like a 12-valve engine (1 intake and 2 exhaust valves). Once 2,200 rpm is reached, a pin within the primary intake rocker arm slides over and engages the secondary rocker arm, and both rocker arms operate off the primary (larger) cam lobe.

This promotes good port velocity at lower engine speeds to maximize torque in those conditions, and still allows for good mid- and high-speed operation with both intake valves operating off the "big" cam. You can also see the camshaft phaser on the intake camshaft just inside the timing chain. On this version of the K-series engine, the cam phaser can advance or retard the camshaft through 25 degrees of rotation in either direction. Some of the performance-oriented K-series engines have 45 or 50 degree phasers, but the economy versions have 25 degree phasers.

There is no phaser on the exhaust cam, and there is no VTEC on the exhaust cam. The exhaust rocker arm is shaped like a Y, and a single roller rides against a single cam lobe (for each cylinder), and the rocker arm depresses both exhaust valves. I assume this was done to reduce friction (only one lobe per pair of valves).

Insides look good for the miles and past oil history. My plan is to continue with 5,000 mile OCIs, but with PYB instead of a synthetic offering.

Larger picture versions here: Picasa

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635617 05/25/12 06:12 AM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Advanced Durability 10W30

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635621 05/25/12 06:22 AM
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webfors Offline
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OMG where is all the sludge from using dino!! grin

Nice and clean. That engine will run forever on VWB/PYB while everything else falls apart around it.


17 Cadillac ATS 2.0T, Edge D1G2 5w30, Champion COS10590
17 Dodge GC, VWB 5w30, Mopar MO-349
18 DL1000XT, Valvoline Dino 20w50, Suzuki OEM OF
Small engines; RT5 10w30
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635639 05/25/12 06:57 AM
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That is one clean engine. Currently my son purchased a 2000 Lexus ES 300 with 160k on the clock. The oil change history is somewhat clouded but the "Sludge Monster" took over this engine. He dropped the oil pan and the sludge was hard and dry like pine bark. We have pics and have started the remediation process. After cleaning the pan and the oil pick up tube he has 17 psig at idle and 70 psig at 3k RPMs.
The engine is running smooth and we are hoping for the best. He has installed PYB 5w-30 SN/GF5 with a longer Purolator Classic oil filter with 8 oz of Seafoam in the crankcase.


It is ok to expect, however you have to inspect.
2002 Tahoe 5.3 PU 5w-30
2011 Toyota Sienna V6 PP-0w-20
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635648 05/25/12 07:07 AM
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TomYoung Offline
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Congrats on clean engine, but this disassembly at this low mileage on a functioning unit is not really merited...

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635653 05/25/12 07:16 AM
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chubbs1 Offline
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Thanks for the pics! Always nice to see a clean engine. The more I see the less I think I need to ever use Grp III and up.


'12 Charger SXT
QSUD 5w30 OEM filter

'12 Charger SXT
Edge FST EP 5w30 OEM (Mine;)

'11 Hyundai Sonata GLS
QSUD 5w20 OEM Filter

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: BigBird57] #2635658 05/25/12 07:22 AM
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lexus114 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BigBird57
That is one clean engine. Currently my son purchased a 2000 Lexus ES 300 with 160k on the clock. The oil change history is somewhat clouded but the "Sludge Monster" took over this engine. He dropped the oil pan and the sludge was hard and dry like pine bark. We have pics and have started the remediation process. After cleaning the pan and the oil pick up tube he has 17 psig at idle and 70 psig at 3k RPMs.
The engine is running smooth and we are hoping for the best. He has installed PYB 5w-30 SN/GF5 with a longer Purolator Classic oil filter with 8 oz of Seafoam in the crankcase.



Did he pull the valve covers yet?


2018 Nissan Maxima S
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635686 05/25/12 07:48 AM
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Bill in Utah Offline
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Does Honda need to have the valves checked at such a low mileage?

I guess I need to check my lash (I think 150k is the number) but am afraid to open it up since its not leaking/seeping at all. Sounds the same as when I bought it and running perfect.

Someday....

Looks good for low miles.

Bill

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: lexus114] #2635689 05/25/12 07:49 AM
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Bill in Utah Offline
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Originally Posted By: lexus114
Originally Posted By: BigBird57
That is one clean engine. Currently my son purchased a 2000 Lexus ES 300 with 160k on the clock. The oil change history is somewhat clouded but the "Sludge Monster" took over this engine. He dropped the oil pan and the sludge was hard and dry like pine bark. We have pics and have started the remediation process. After cleaning the pan and the oil pick up tube he has 17 psig at idle and 70 psig at 3k RPMs.
The engine is running smooth and we are hoping for the best. He has installed PYB 5w-30 SN/GF5 with a longer Purolator Classic oil filter with 8 oz of Seafoam in the crankcase.



Did he pull the valve covers yet?


Yep...

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: TomYoung] #2635690 05/25/12 07:52 AM
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SLCraig Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomYoung
Congrats on clean engine, but this disassembly at this low mileage on a functioning unit is not really merited...


It is because with Honda's you have to periodically check the last adjustment on the valves. It is common to crack an engine like this at least especially if you're a car enthusiast (like most BITOG'ers)


2010 Civic SI sedan 6MT
PP 5w30 | Fram TG | Pennzoil MTF
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635720 05/25/12 08:23 AM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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Anyone here on BITOG have any "inside engine/under valvecover" pics while using Castrol GTX?


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Advanced Durability 10W30

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: TomYoung] #2635733 05/25/12 08:38 AM
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JOD Offline
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Originally Posted By: TomYoung
Congrats on clean engine, but this disassembly at this low mileage on a functioning unit is not really merited...


On this car (and most Honda's), it's actually a pretty good idea. Honda spec'd 30K valve adjustments for years. When they first went to 100K intervals, they ended up with a lot of burned valves... The K-series engines are supposedly better, but the one I checked @ 60K needed pretty much all of the exhaust valves adjusted. They had tightened up, so it's not like you're actually going to be able to hear that. I think 60K valve adjustments are a good idea on this engine.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635741 05/25/12 08:42 AM
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ARB1977 Online Content
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Im at 70K on the same V. There was some valve noise with mobil one, switched to Amsoil no more tick. Great suv for sure. OLM is at 10K intervals.


2015 Tacoma 4.0L 60K (as of 02/23/18)
AMSOIL SS 0W30 / Toyota filter

2018 CRV 1.5L (as of 05/11/18)
Factory fill / Honda filter
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635796 05/25/12 09:38 AM
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BrianWC Offline
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Nice. You've got me wanting to crack open the 02 CR-V. I never have, believe it or not.


2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2018 Volkswagen Atlas SEL-P 4Motion
2018 Volkswagen GTI S
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635861 05/25/12 10:54 AM
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KrisZ Offline
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Thanks for sharing these pics. thumbsup
One more proof that sticking with proper maintenance schedule is far more important than oil type or brand choice.


2015 Grand Caravan 3.6L - 31k miles.
2006 Mazda 3 2.0L - 171k miles
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: aquariuscsm] #2635899 05/25/12 11:45 AM
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Oregoonian Offline
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


The last three OCI were SYNTHETIC.....not dino....PP 5w20 and M-1 0w20.

Since we haven't seen the engine with just dino....we could conclude that.... SYNTHETIC seems to keep engines really clean.


03' Ford Focus SE(2.3L Duratec PZEV)/ 140K +
Pnz. Ultra 0w20 / Fram 'Ultra'/ OCI: 8000 +/-
ATF: Mercon V w/Lubegard Red

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2635926 05/25/12 12:16 PM
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mechtech2 Offline
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Clean engines are normal. Especially at under 60k miles.

I note the discoloration/varnish on the oil separator and valve cover in the pics above it's not as clean as you think in there.
And more importantly, the #2 exhaust cam is worn/ grooved. Look at the reflection on it.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Oregoonian] #2636023 05/25/12 01:53 PM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


The last three OCI were SYNTHETIC.....not dino....PP 5w20 and M-1 0w20.

Since we haven't seen the engine with just dino....we could conclude that.... SYNTHETIC seems to keep engines really clean.





**Oil history: Valvoline white bottle from the dealer at intervals specified by the maintenance minder (about 7-8k miles each), from new until when I bought it with about 45,000 miles*

^^From the op`s first post. Re-read it in it`s entirety please,unless you`re suggesting that 10,000 miles of pseudo-syn and syn cleaned up his severely sludged-ruined by VWB dino engine?


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Advanced Durability 10W30

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: mechtech2] #2636025 05/25/12 01:54 PM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
And more importantly, the #2 exhaust cam is worn/ grooved. Look at the reflection on it.


There is no real "wear" on it, though it may appear so in the one photo. Unfortunately, low-light photography is only so good. I said this in the first post:

Quote:
You can see where the rollers roll on the lobes, but there's no real visible "wear" in terms of scarring, grooving, etc.


There really is no grooving there...nothing you can feel with your fingernail anyway. What you see is the track where the rocker arm roller follows the cam. But the lobe itself is not scarred or grooved. Here is a different angle on it, with different light. Also, what you're looking at is the direct peak of the lobe, so the wear pattern is slightly different there (as it is on all of them) where the roller tops the peak of the lobe.



Opening the valve cover this early probably wasn't necessary, but Honda did used to specify 30k mile valve lash adjustments, and they all of a sudden jumped to 100k, so I figured it would be good to check. Plus, this engine does put out some "clackity" noises when colder, so I wanted to rule out valve adjustment. And it's definitely ruled out...all of the valves were within tolerance except for the #1 exhaust valves. They were slightly tight. The other exhaust valves were perfect (.011"). #2 and #3 intake valves were within spec at .009", but I wanted all the intake valves at .008", so I adjusted those.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: aquariuscsm] #2636094 05/25/12 03:46 PM
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Oregoonian Offline
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Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


The last three OCI were SYNTHETIC.....not dino....PP 5w20 and M-1 0w20.

Since we haven't seen the engine with just dino....we could conclude that.... SYNTHETIC seems to keep engines really clean.





**Oil history: Valvoline white bottle from the dealer at intervals specified by the maintenance minder (about 7-8k miles each), from new until when I bought it with about 45,000 miles*

^^From the op`s first post. Re-read it in it`s entirety please,unless you`re suggesting that 10,000 miles of pseudo-syn and syn cleaned up his severely sludged-ruined by VWB dino engine?


Not suggesting that at all! But....it started with dino....but for the last 10K +/- has been with some of the best synthetics available (PP and M1) both of which have great reputations as oils that 'clean'. Based on those facts, that engine might have had issues with dino (especially at 7K to 8K OCI's)....but the use of high quality synthetics....might have cleaned it up. Just my opinion.


03' Ford Focus SE(2.3L Duratec PZEV)/ 140K +
Pnz. Ultra 0w20 / Fram 'Ultra'/ OCI: 8000 +/-
ATF: Mercon V w/Lubegard Red

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2636107 05/25/12 04:17 PM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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I will say that, at least visually, the engine hasn't appeared to get cleaner or dirtier since I've owned it. There are some dark areas in the camshaft bearing towers in the crevices...little pockets of varnish it seems. I can see some of these through the oil fill hole, and have monitored it continuously since I bought the car. I was hoping that the oil I've been using would clean those little pockets of varnish, but that has not happened. I'm not saying that the engine couldn't generally be cleaner today compared with when I bought it, but it visually hasn't changed...again, at least what I can see through the oil fill hole.

Would these pockets of varnish (not even pea-sized, mind you) have formed if synthetic were used from the beginning? I don't know. Would these pockets of varnish eventually clean up if I continue with quality "cleaning" synthetic oils? I don't know the answer to that either.

This is one reason I'm moving back to conventional (PYB or VNG). I will say that the engine was noisiest on cold starts with VWB, at least of the oils that I've run in it, so if I do try Valvoline again, it'll be the NextGen variety to see if there's any difference. It seems to be the quietest on the M1 AFE. I have not used PYB in it, and look forward to that, because I previously owned a slightly noisy 4-cylinder (Nissan KA24E), and a high moly oil (Havoline) really helped to quiet that motor down. And PYB is also highly regarded as a "cleaning" oil, so maybe it'll slowly improve with consistent 5k mile OCIs.

And let me append something I wrote earlier. I didn't mean to imply that the camshaft lobes have, literally, no wear. Obviously these are metal parts with metal rollers riding on them...there will be wear. What I was looking for was scarring, grooving, pitting, stuff like that. And what I found were 12 cam lobes that were very smooth, with no wear pattern that could be felt with a fingertip. I have observed cam lobes that appeared ground down over time, scalloped, scuffed, etc. Those are the kinds of things I was looking for, not that I really expected to find them. And I was happy to not find them.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Oregoonian] #2636147 05/25/12 04:53 PM
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KrisZ Offline
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Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


The last three OCI were SYNTHETIC.....not dino....PP 5w20 and M-1 0w20.

Since we haven't seen the engine with just dino....we could conclude that.... SYNTHETIC seems to keep engines really clean.





**Oil history: Valvoline white bottle from the dealer at intervals specified by the maintenance minder (about 7-8k miles each), from new until when I bought it with about 45,000 miles*

^^From the op`s first post. Re-read it in it`s entirety please,unless you`re suggesting that 10,000 miles of pseudo-syn and syn cleaned up his severely sludged-ruined by VWB dino engine?


Not suggesting that at all! But....it started with dino....but for the last 10K +/- has been with some of the best synthetics available (PP and M1) both of which have great reputations as oils that 'clean'. Based on those facts, that engine might have had issues with dino (especially at 7K to 8K OCI's)....but the use of high quality synthetics....might have cleaned it up. Just my opinion.


can I have some of that cool aid?


2015 Grand Caravan 3.6L - 31k miles.
2006 Mazda 3 2.0L - 171k miles
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2636150 05/25/12 04:57 PM
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aquariuscsm Offline
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I`m going back to dino more than likely. GTX and/or Valvoline.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Advanced Durability 10W30

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2636627 05/26/12 07:01 AM
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Char Baby Offline
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IMOH, Honda engines are not hard on oil. I opened up my old Accord due to leaking oil pan and valve cover gasket and @ 300K miles I couldn't believe how clean it was at both ends. On dino oil all it's life too!


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic 1.8 LX
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2636639 05/26/12 07:14 AM
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k24a4 Offline
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Thanks for the post, Hokiefyd. How did you learn to do the adjustment? Online? Book? My '04 Accord K24 has over 100k miles now. I should check the valves. Never done it before. Easy, hard?


Show the world you give a shift! Save the manuals!

'04 Accord I4 EX 5-MT 192000mi PU 5w-20 SM P1
'93 Miata 5-MT 125450mi PPP SN 5w-30 P1


Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: k24a4] #2636792 05/26/12 11:12 AM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: k24a4
Thanks for the post, Hokiefyd. How did you learn to do the adjustment? Online? Book? My '04 Accord K24 has over 100k miles now. I should check the valves. Never done it before. Easy, hard?


I have an alldatadiy.com account. It's pretty much a carbon copy of the service manual, so all the stuff is in there. PM me, and I can help you out with the instructions. It wasn't difficult, but because the engine is slanted backwards in the engine bay, the exhaust valves were harder to reach and gauge.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2637277 05/27/12 05:30 AM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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I ran the car around after I adjusted the valves, and there didn't seem to be any difference in the cold-start noise or light chatter this engine seems to make. However, yesterday morning I drained out the Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20 and poured in my free (from BITOG Q&A session rebate) Valvoline MaxLife NextGen 5W-20 and I can say that there's a marked difference in the volume of the chatter from this cold motor. You can still kind of hear it if you're listening for it, but it sounds to be very muted. The oil almost "feels" thicker in the throttle pedal, but I must say, we went on a 200 mile trip yesterday afternoon to Wilmington and back and I got 29.6 mpg on the trip. That's the best I've ever done in this vehicle, and well above its 26 mpg highway rating. So I'll be watching in-town mpg closely to see if it's commensurate with what I achieved before on the M1 0W-20. If so, I may continue with this oil. I had plans to switch to PYB, but this VMLNG seems to be the real deal.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2637321 05/27/12 07:35 AM
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Artem Offline
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Thanks for the update, i stocked up on like 30 quarts of NextGen during various FAR deals over the past several months and i've yet to use it.


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2637341 05/27/12 08:09 AM
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buster Offline
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Quote:
It seems to be the quietest on the M1 AFE.


I have the same engine. M1 0w20 SN was the best in terms of engine noise level. Extremely quiet.

In the cold, this engine tends to make a bit of noise. M1 0w20 took that away.

Engine looks really good. Valvoline makes good oil for shorter drain intervals. Wear protection is excellent.


2019 Frontier Pro 4X - RGT 5w30
2019 Impreza Sport - OE fill
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2936617 03/12/13 02:38 PM
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thanks for posting the nice pics, I have a 2008 accord 2.4 k24z3 with 70k miles which i believe looks the same under the valve cover as your CRV. I am trying to decide if i should pop the valve cover off or not. the thing is the more i read about adjusting valves the more i think i hear "noisy valves" ha


12 Honda Odyssey 112k
09 Kymco Super8
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01 Kymco People 50
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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Oregoonian] #2936755 03/12/13 04:46 PM
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Yes nothing like coolreading into things to make it work for me. The white bottle worked fine the syn worked fine and neither was better than the other and that's the truth but it hurts a wee bit.
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline dino seems to keep engines really clean.


The last three OCI were SYNTHETIC.....not dino....PP 5w20 and M-1 0w20.

Since we haven't seen the engine with just dino....we could conclude that.... SYNTHETIC seems to keep engines really clean.





**Oil history: Valvoline white bottle from the dealer at intervals specified by the maintenance minder (about 7-8k miles each), from new until when I bought it with about 45,000 miles*

^^From the op`s first post. Re-read it in it`s entirety please,unless you`re suggesting that 10,000 miles of pseudo-syn and syn cleaned up his severely sludged-ruined by VWB dino engine?


Not suggesting that at all! But....it started with dino....but for the last 10K +/- has been with some of the best synthetics available (PP and M1) both of which have great reputations as oils that 'clean'. Based on those facts, that engine might have had issues with dino (especially at 7K to 8K OCI's)....but the use of high quality synthetics....might have cleaned it up. Just my opinion.


ottotheclown
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2937270 03/13/13 07:05 AM
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That is one nice clean engine! Thanks for posting!


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07 Merc Grand Marquis
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Motorcraft Filter.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: TomYoung] #2937876 03/13/13 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: TomYoung
Congrats on clean engine, but this disassembly at this low mileage on a functioning unit is not really merited...


Right. The OP should display such an exhibit at approximately 200K miles. Let's see what it's like then.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2937905 03/13/13 06:03 PM
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ARB1977 Online Content
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Even with the current fill its a little noisy but not too bad. Next fill will be with PP 5W20 with a purlator synthetic filter. At some point I need to change the valve cover gasket on the Tacoma. Be sure to take pictures of the inside.


2015 Tacoma 4.0L 60K (as of 02/23/18)
AMSOIL SS 0W30 / Toyota filter

2018 CRV 1.5L (as of 05/11/18)
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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2937932 03/13/13 06:36 PM
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Well done. Thanks for posting.


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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: DinoOil] #2937935 03/13/13 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: DinoOil
Originally Posted By: TomYoung
Congrats on clean engine, but this disassembly at this low mileage on a functioning unit is not really merited...


Right. The OP should display such an exhibit at approximately 200K miles. Let's see what it's like then.


This. ^^^

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2937945 03/13/13 06:49 PM
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Thank you for posting-and appreciate the pictures. I have the same engine in my 05 Accord. Valves were adjusted for the first time last month at 180K. No diff in cold weather clatter.
I beg to differ on your assessment of cam lobe condition---and offer my opinion only as that, my opinion, not to argue with you. After 101K miles on 5-20 I switched over to 5-30 because my lobes were starting to take on the appearance of yours. They never quite got to where yours are at, but I didn't want to be replacing cams at 200K when it is not a good financial move. I am happy with the 5-30 and do not ever plan to go back to any 20 weight in this car. For me, QSUD has been the loudest oil--cold as well as warm---contrary to the current thinking of high Boron being a 'quieting' remedy



Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: steve20] #2937948 03/13/13 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: steve20
Thank you for posting-and appreciate the pictures. I have the same engine in my 05 Accord. Valves were adjusted for the first time last month at 180K. No diff in cold weather clatter.
I beg to differ on your assessment of cam lobe condition---and offer my opinion only as that, my opinion, not to argue with you. After 101K miles on 5-20 I switched over to 5-30 because my lobes were starting to take on the appearance of yours. They never quite got to where yours are at, but I didn't want to be replacing cams at 200K when it is not a good financial move. I am happy with the 5-30 and do not ever plan to go back to any 20 weight in this car. For me, QSUD has been the loudest oil--cold as well as warm---contrary to the current thinking of high Boron being a 'quieting' remedy


If it is a roller motor, why would you be replacing cams? The cams will likely outlive the rest of the engine.


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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: steve20] #2938219 03/14/13 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: steve20
Thank you for posting-and appreciate the pictures. I have the same engine in my 05 Accord. Valves were adjusted for the first time last month at 180K. No diff in cold weather clatter.
I beg to differ on your assessment of cam lobe condition---and offer my opinion only as that, my opinion, not to argue with you. After 101K miles on 5-20 I switched over to 5-30 because my lobes were starting to take on the appearance of yours. They never quite got to where yours are at, but I didn't want to be replacing cams at 200K when it is not a good financial move. I am happy with the 5-30 and do not ever plan to go back to any 20 weight in this car. For me, QSUD has been the loudest oil--cold as well as warm---contrary to the current thinking of high Boron being a 'quieting' remedy


I go back and forth between a 20 grade and a 30 grade, in terms of what I will use next. It has Mobil 1 0W-30 in it now. Whether this is a more appropriate oil for the engine compared with a 20 grade, I don't know.

I don't believe there are problems with the cam lobes. The "grooves" you see on the cam lobes are more like "witness lines" than "wear grooves". They cannot be felt at all. Could you measure wear with a micrometer? Probably. But although they appear to be "grooved", it's just the way the flash from the camera makes them appear. The picture was taken with an older smartphone in my garage, so lighting was poor.

I am interested in your assessment of which oils have run quietest and loudest in this engine. This K24 has been the most sensitive engine I've owned to oil selection, in terms of engine noise. Most engines I've owned have sounded the same, regardless of the oil in the sump. But this one is definitely louder or quieter on certain oils. I'm interested to hear what your experience has been.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938271 03/14/13 07:03 AM
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When this thread was originally posted, I was just 20 days past buying a new Si with the k24z7 engine. Within the lifespan of the factory fill, my cam lobes looked the exact same way. I've since run heavier oils, usually a franken-mix of whatever I have on the shelves of my aging stash, and the cam lobes have not gotten any worse. So perhaps the cams are allowed to get those lines on the very outer surface but nothing beyond???

I've similarly run whatever oil was closest in my '02 CR-V for probably ten of the eleven years I've owned it (ran M1 5W30 the first) and it's still motoring along.


2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2018 Volkswagen Atlas SEL-P 4Motion
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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: BrianWC] #2938338 03/14/13 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: BrianWC
When this thread was originally posted, I was just 20 days past buying a new Si with the k24z7 engine. Within the lifespan of the factory fill, my cam lobes looked the exact same way. I've since run heavier oils, usually a franken-mix of whatever I have on the shelves of my aging stash, and the cam lobes have not gotten any worse. So perhaps the cams are allowed to get those lines on the very outer surface but nothing beyond???

I've similarly run whatever oil was closest in my '02 CR-V for probably ten of the eleven years I've owned it (ran M1 5W30 the first) and it's still motoring along.


It is completely normal for there to be a "track" where the roller follows the lobe (in a roller valvetrain application). You won't be able to feel it with your finger, but its presence is expected given the finish on the lobe itself after it has been ground. As the lubricated wheel acts against the slightly irregularly finished surface, the surface becomes less irregular and these "tracks" are just the result of that.

Depending on how shiny the finish was on the lobe when it was made will determine how visible this characteristic is.

To demonstrate how harmless this is, I've had the valve covers off a Modular that was extremely low mileage (my buddy's 02 GT) and where the roller followed the lobe was visible. I also had the valve covers off a Crown Vic with north of 400,000Km on it at the wreckers and it had the same tracks. No better, no worse smile

Even in applications with much higher valve spring pressure (relatively speaking here) like my 302's, the 2nd of which had the factory cam in it until ~312,000Km, the finish on the cam was "like new". But you could still see where the roller lifters followed the cam profile on the lobes.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938386 03/14/13 09:07 AM
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Right and I hope I didn't mean to make my post look anti-20 weight or anything. Really I was just pointing out that regardless of the quality of the oil, my two k24's seem to take it in stride.


2002 Honda CR-V EX AWD
2018 Volkswagen Atlas SEL-P 4Motion
2018 Volkswagen GTI S
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: OVERKILL] #2938392 03/14/13 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It is completely normal for there to be a "track" where the roller follows the lobe (in a roller valvetrain application). You won't be able to feel it with your finger, but its presence is expected given the finish on the lobe itself after it has been ground. As the lubricated wheel acts against the slightly irregularly finished surface, the surface becomes less irregular and these "tracks" are just the result of that.


Additionally, the surface of the roller follower wheel will not be absolutely perfectly flat, or likely absolutely perfectly parallel with the surface of the cam lobe...at least initially. So witness lines like these will naturally form as each individual roller follower wheel and lobe wear-in together (also as noted by BrianWC above). The witness lines will appear quickly as the wear-in occurs, and cause no harm for hundreds of thousands of miles.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938481 03/14/13 10:39 AM
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We see these same marks on the cam lobes of Macks MP series engines at work. When these engines first came out, we questioned Mack about it and they soon released a bulletin stating that this was normal and was only cause for concern if you could feel them with your finger nail. For what its worth to anyone.


2012 Toyota RAV4 2.5L AWD
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938894 03/14/13 05:06 PM
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Hey, I'm the poster boy for cold valve clatter on these engines and trying everything to eliminate it. The engines are so nice and quiet otherwise so the cold "clatter" drove me nuts. I've tried lots of different oils and I've adjusted the valves 3 times trying to figure it out.

The car is a 2004 Accord 2.4L manual. I'm the original owner and I ran it during the warranty on GTX 5/20. Then when I switched to PU 5/30 (yeah, I'm one of those 30 weight guys) but then I noticed for the first time the dreaded cold clatter. Never noticed it on the GTX so yes I deserve flaming for changing to 30 wt! So I opened it up (should have taken pictures but it was nice and clean) and adjusted the valves to spec. Guess what, no difference, still cold clatter!

It had to be valve clatter so I opened it up again and set all the valves slightly tight and guess what? No clatter! Just a gnawing sensation that I'm burning valves (hey, there's gotta be some tolerence there, right... right?). I couldn't take it any longer so after a while I opened it up again and very very carefully set each valve exactly at it's minimum clearance. The clatter was back but not as bad. So it's definitely valve clearance making the noise on this engine.

So what I've found this past year is PYB (SN) 5/30 is the ticket to quiet this clatter (maybe the Moly?) Very quiet running in all phases including cold! I do notice the cold clatter starts coming back at around 4k to 5k miles on the change. Fresh oil, the clatter goes away again. I'm on my 3rd change with PYB. With min clearances on the valves, I'll need to adjust more frequently but it's fairly easy on this engine although as one poster said, it's a bit hard to get the feeler gauge on some of the valves.

By the way, I've tried GC 0w30, M1 5/30, Napa 5/30 full synthetic (that was pretty quiet... for a while!), PP 5/30 and PU 5/30 which was probably the worst in terms of cold clatter. All didn't help the cold clatter like the PYB. So I'm a believer... Now what am I gonna do with all this other oil in my stash? Oh yeah, the other five cars, the two motorcycles, my kids who come home for oil changes, their girlfriends cars... wink


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938904 03/14/13 05:16 PM
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Nice and clean. Stick with what you're currently using, along with the interval, it is serving you well.


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Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2938935 03/14/13 05:34 PM
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Re: Scout...

Like your Accord: PYB 5w-30 ran a quiet I4/2.4 Camry
...running PP 5w-30 is even quieter...

Diff'rent ols fer diff'rent strokes (as the song goes, perhaps), but thought I'd pass this on to ya anyway...


Kitacam is an 05 Camry LE/I4/MT; latest OC: 2/17 @ 142,300....PP 5w-30 with Toyo filter
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: KitaCam] #2938962 03/14/13 06:00 PM
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You know, you're right... when the engine is warm PP is absolutely the quietest, but PP was far noisier when the engine was cold and that was my issue...

I'm using PP 10/30 in my BMW Z4 and it is very quiet compared to the GC I was running before.


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2939020 03/14/13 07:00 PM
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Hokiefyd Offline OP
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I'm not the only one then.

PYB does run quiet in my engine. I used the 5W-20 variety; I'm sure the 5W-30 would be quiet as well. The PP and PU oils were much louder for me. I never could figure it out. But PYB was good.

I've also found M1's AFE line to be very quiet. Probably quieter even than PYB. I've used 0W-20 before, and I have 0W-30 in it now. It's a toss-up on whether I'll go back to 0W-20 next time.

I'd be interested to hear if your engine is as quiet as mine is on M1 0W-30 if you decide to try that some time.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940325 03/16/13 06:36 AM
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Hi Hokiefyd,
I forgot to mention it in my first post, but I did try a run of M1 0w30 AFE when it first came out. Worked OK, but not nearly as quiet as the PYB, I still heard the cold clatter.

I sort of suspect the high moly in the PYB is what's actually doing the trick since the PP and PU don't have the same level, nor does the M1 AFE. I guess a way to prove that would be to fill up with a low or no Moly oil (Valvoline perhaps) and then throw a bottle of LM MOS2 additive in and see if it quiets down. Hummm... I might try that sometime.


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Scout1] #2940336 03/16/13 06:54 AM
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By the way, remember I'm running my valves at minimum clearances so it will be a bit nosier with a normal valve adjustment which will allow some valves to be towards the upper tolerance. I'm also pretty sure the noise is coming from the exhaust values which have the greatest clearance (obviously!). They are to the back and the noise comes right through the firewall.

It's interesting to hear a much louder tink tink on these exhaust valves when you hand manipulate the clearance, they really have a pretty wide clearance. Whatever metal Honda chose, they needed a lot of thermal expansion allowance. Perhaps the exhausts just run really hot on these engines due to the extra lean burn system (two O2 sensors). Donno.


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940349 03/16/13 07:24 AM
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If you obsess about engine noise that much, have you thought about improving the sound insulation on the vehicle? I started to look into that with my G37 due to the low profile tire noise. Priorities changed(more like waking to reality) and I ended up changing cars to a much quieter F150.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Coprolite] #2940417 03/16/13 08:36 AM
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Ha ha... show me a guy on this forum who isn't obsessed! Otherwise we'd all be going to Jiffy Lube! I donno, even if I could figure out how to insulate things better, usually you still hear the noise and know what it is... would still make me want to try and fix it! I've been accused of being a perfectionist in the past...

I used to have a friend who said, "If my car starts making noise, I just turn up the radio a bit" :-)


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940442 03/16/13 09:08 AM
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My scion (2azfe) seems to work the opposite way. Its runs fairly quiet when cold, but once hot, my valve tick starts to get worse. any thoughts on that? Its definitely coming from the top end, and its not the injectors. I would think as the engine heats up, things would expand and the clearance would get smaller, reducing the noise, as it seems to in your Hondas. And it does seem to quiet down somewhat depending on what oil I use, haven't tried pyb yet though. QSUD hadn't seemed to help much, which kinda counteracts most peoples experiences here. For those who don't know, the 2azfe is a cam on bucket design, don't know if that changes things any, although I don't see why it would


2012 Toyota RAV4 2.5L AWD
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Coprolite] #2940506 03/16/13 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: Coprolite
If you obsess about engine noise that much, have you thought about improving the sound insulation on the vehicle? I started to look into that with my G37 due to the low profile tire noise. Priorities changed(more like waking to reality) and I ended up changing cars to a much quieter F150.


I agree. A little too much OCD and whatever other maladies and afflictions plague some around here. I think a low dose of Paxil would help some here.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: afoulk] #2940550 03/16/13 11:22 AM
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Yeah, that's strange although seems there are a lot of complaints on valve-train noise on these Toyota engines. Sounds like it's a viscosity thing, as the oil heats up and thins out you get more noise than when it's cold and thick. Valve adjustments on those engines look pretty awful with the cam removal and new buckets required to adjust! Since the cam lobe rides directly on the bucket, wonder if a really high HTHS oil might quiet it down? Donno if you're against 30 wts, but GC 0w30 might be the ticket!


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940719 03/16/13 02:28 PM
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I understand the SM version of Mobil 1's AFE wasn't as quiet as the newer SN version of it. Many folks have commented on how quiet their engines are on the SN AFE. I haven't used the SM version, so I couldn't compare. I did run PYB 5W-20 directly before this run of M1 0W-30. Cold start was about the same (very good). The PYB was a little louder when warmed-up, though. That could be the difference in grade, though.

On a prior oil change, I had five quarts of PP 0W-20 in it, and as you know, the engine is awfully rattly on that oil. I drained one quart out and put in one quart of M1 0W-40 and the noise was MUCH quieter. About as quiet as it is now. I don't know whether it's the viscosity, the moly, some other additive, etc. But it is an interesting experiment.

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940971 03/16/13 06:42 PM
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Hey Jason
Past oil experience with the K24 in the 05 Accord

0-101,000 miles my own syn blend of 3 qts GTX & 1.5 qt Syntec both 5-20. Seemed to bet he quietest blend I've used, but also the dirtiest in terms of smut visible thru the fill opening

102,000-140,000 miles my own syn blend of 3.5 qts PYB & 1.5 qt PP both 5-30 not as quiet as the GTX

140,000-177,000 miles either straight PYB in the summer or straight PP in the winter both 30 weights. No more syn blending. The PP seems to be the loudest cold & hot, PYB much quieter.

177,000-182,000 QSUD 5-30-clatter turned into a different sound, a quieter but more constant than a ticking when cold-I do not particularly care for this oil in this car, but I've got at least 25 quarts of it. It has started to clean the Castrol smut left in the valve cover. I would say my under my vc is about, or just slightly better than the way your's looks today

You can hear a cold 4 cyl Honda start in a cold parking lot from 100 yards away, so in the end I would think we'll never solve the cold clatter with different oils, but PYB has worked best,----- the higher cST when cold does not impress. The PYB 5-30 is almost as thick as PYB 10-30. When the new PZL Blend goes on special I'll probably pick up an oil change worth, just to try it
Thanks again for the pics, and the description of how the second intake valve mechanism works, I never knew about the 2200 rpm switch over
Steve



Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2940976 03/16/13 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I understand the SM version of Mobil 1's AFE wasn't as quiet as the newer SN version of it. Many folks have commented on how quiet their engines are on the SN AFE. I haven't used the SM version, so I couldn't compare. I did run PYB 5W-20 directly before this run of M1 0W-30. Cold start was about the same (very good). The PYB was a little louder when warmed-up, though. That could be the difference in grade, though.

On a prior oil change, I had five quarts of PP 0W-20 in it, and as you know, the engine is awfully rattly on that oil. I drained one quart out and put in one quart of M1 0W-40 and the noise was MUCH quieter. About as quiet as it is now. I don't know whether it's the viscosity, the moly, some other additive, etc. But it is an interesting experiment.


I ran many OCIs with both SM and SN M1 0-20(probably more than most any other Bitoger). Saw no differance in performance between the two at 10K OCIs.

Last edited by tig1; 03/16/13 06:51 PM.

2007 Ford Fusion 249,000 miles
M1 5-20HM
2017 Ford Fusion 80K
M1 0-20EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: Hokiefyd] #2941338 03/17/13 07:57 AM
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Has anyone here compared the sound level with Honda oil?
It seems that the sound is from the cams and rockers until the valves heat up and the gap closes. A side effect of not having hydraulic lash adjusters. If this is the case, thicker oil may help quiet the sound, but what is the downside elsewhere, and are there any reason the sound should be a concern other than a nuisance?


98 Toyota Sienna 155k, 18-26mpg, 21avg
13 Honda Civic 12k, 28-45mpg, 34avg
Re: Under a CR-V's valve cover [Re: mr_diy] #2941392 03/17/13 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: mr_diy
Has anyone here compared the sound level with Honda oil?
It seems that the sound is from the cams and rockers until the valves heat up and the gap closes. A side effect of not having hydraulic lash adjusters. If this is the case, thicker oil may help quiet the sound, but what is the downside elsewhere, and are there any reason the sound should be a concern other than a nuisance?


In 2003, Honda had a camshaft issue that led to premature pitting and galling of the lobes on the exhaust cams in particular. So the cold ticking might make that problem show up sooner. Later years I think have been OK, so it's mostly a nuisance I think. Haven't tried any Honda oil in the 04, but I'll be running Honda oil in my 2013. The new motor has a completely different head with the direct injection and integrated exhaust manifold... it even switches the cross flow direction with the exhaust now on the front. The new engine does seem a lot louder than the 04 but I think that might be the DI?


Scout1
Truth will always bear up against falsehood, as oil does above water
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