Moly presentation by Infineum

[Gokhan]

Things you wanted to know about moly but were afraid to ask.

It turns out that the best kind of moly is the trimer kind and it only works if it contains sulfur as well. It basically works by producing MoS_2 (molybdenum disulphide) at the wear surfaces. They say no other compound lowers the friction as much as the moly trimer.

Moly also greatly reduces wear they say and it works especially if it's used in conjunction with ZDDP.

Moly and ZDDP are the two magical compounds for contact surfaces indeed.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

You could feel the moly in the old Formula Shell oils, esp when "lugging" about.

 

[tinmanSC]

Oh, nifty! thanks for the link.

 

[buster]

Page 9 is interesting. 75 ppm of Moly gives you the same final friction coefficient as 200ppm, the only difference being the slower rate of activation for the 75 ppm.

 

[buster]

Quote:
Molybdenum trimer is extremely effective in controlling wear in Seq. IVA

 

[car54]

so unless they sponsor the site, we can't know about it?

that really makes me wanna donate cash to the site, knowing all ill get out of it is spoonfed info from sponsors.

 

[ltslimjim]

Ha! I found the site anyway. Thanks for the post.

This really makes me want to go out and throw in a can of Lubro Moly MoS2 every oil change now.

 

[Gokhan]

The type of moly Infineum is promoting is trinuclear (or trimer) moly, which has three moly atoms surrounded by sulfur atoms and organic chains. It apparently works by coating the rubbing metal surfaces with MoS_2 and working together with ZDDP and enhancing it they claim.

I probably wouldn't throw in raw MoS_2 in engine oil, which is apparently corrosive to certain metals and also by throwing in raw MoS_2, you probably wouldn't get the same fuel-economy, antiwear, and antioxidant benefits. Raw MoS_2 is used in greases for sure though.

Too bad they don't sell the trinuclear moly.

 

[ltslimjim]

I was under the impression that Lubro Moly MoS2 was more than a raw version only. What kind of metals might it cause more wear in regards to?

...and this company, Infineum, sells additives to oil blenders?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I was under the impression that Lubro Moly MoS2 was more than a raw version only. What kind of metals might it cause more wear in regards to?

...and this company, Infineum, sells additives to oil blenders?


Lubro Moly is non corrosive in engines and plates quite well, and reduces wear and friction. Somewhere on this site a while back this issue was discussed and addressed with the Lubro Moly people. I also discussed it with Rosemill Industries who is a supplier of MoS2. MoS2 is safe in engines and a good EP AW additive. It seems some people were concerned with soft yellow metals, and I was assured both MoS2 and Lubro Moly were totally safe in engines, and with yellow metals. HTH

 

[m37charlie]

http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Crankc...logy%202009.pdf

Charlie

 

[Gokhan]

Regarding Infineum it's a joint venture between Exxon-Mobil and Shell making oil and fuel additives. I think there are only two other major additive makers in the world -- Chevron's Oronite and the independent Lubrizol. So, you can guess who is making the additive package in your oil.

What reduces friction and serves as an antiwear/extreme-pressure coating is MoS_2 (molybdenum disulphide). You can either have it directly or in more complex, mononuclear, dinuclear, trinuclear (according to number of Mo atoms in a molecule) molecular forms, which are decomposed and adhere as MoS_2 onto metal surfaces at higher temperatures and/or rubbing conditions.

Trinuclear form was invented circa 2002 by a young Exxon-Mobil scientist and patented and commercialized by Infineum. Infineum claims mononuclear and trinuclear forms don't work as well, apparently meaning they don't result in as good MoS_2 films. Even more importantly, forms that don't contain any sulfur don't work at all because they can't decompose into MoS_2.

Lubro Moly lists MoS_2 in their MSDS sheet and apparently there is no mention of complicated stuff. Their other product, the synthetic antiwear agent, apparently doesn't contain any sulfur at all according to the MSDS, which would make it useless according to Infineum.

Then the questions are, assuming Lubro Moly is pure MoS_2, how does it compare in effectiveness to trinuclear moly? Why does a major additive manufacturer choose to use a more complex form of moly instead of the simple MoS_2, especially given the fact that the end molecule that is useful is MoS_2?

 

[Gokhan]

Reading the patent on trinuclear moly, it says that the problem with MoS_2 is that it's not solvable in oil (hence the motivation behind the invention). Since what LubroMoly is selling seems to be MoS_2 in mineral-oil suspension, I would guess that the majority of it will end up inside the oil filter or on the oil pan.

Another advantage of trinuclear moly is apparently its antioxidant properties.

[Correction to the previous post: It should read "Infineum claims mononuclear and dinuclear forms don't work as well, ..."]

 

[ltslimjim]

I can see some of that being true. Still, I don't buy that Lubro Moly MoS2 is worthless in a daily driver. Perhaps if a vehicles sits for long periods of time, but anyone driving it every other day or two, at least will not have it settle out. The key is to be prepared to drive your car or MoS2 could be a waste; or 'settle out' slightly over time, a car driven once every 2-3 weeks perhaps 5,000 miles or less per year etc.; as examples.

Some of the product, perhaps, is filtered out by higher efficiency oil filters and/or through bypass implementation. Still, it's more of a residual effect on oil filtration capacity than actual worries of filtering to the max. Lubro Moly claims 'most' of their product is small enough in micron size it's virtually impossible to be filtered out(at least anything more than a small percentage).

 

[sdan27]

I've done several UOAs on various pieces of farm equipment we have that I've used Lubro-Moly. Most of these pieces of equipment also have some form of bypass oil filtration and I still see high levels of Moly in the UOS. I've noticed decreased oil consumption on most of these pieces of equipment since I've been using the Lubro-Moly.

 

[ltslimjim]

How about wear numbers? Any increase over your UOAs without MoS2

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: sdan27
I've done several UOAs on various pieces of farm equipment we have that I've used Lubro-Moly. Most of these pieces of equipment also have some form of bypass oil filtration and I still see high levels of Moly in the UOS. I've noticed decreased oil consumption on most of these pieces of equipment since I've been using the Lubro-Moly.


I was assured that Lubro Moly doesn't get caught up in filters. Myself and several members I've chatted with via PM about MoS2 have also seen a reduction in oil use using the product. Interesting that even with your filtering system you have high moly in your UOA reports. That confirms what they stated about the moly being small enough to pass through the oil filter.

 

[CATERHAM]

Probabily the largest moly users are the Japanese oil formulators and Adeka-Sakura I believe claims to be the largest
organic moly lubricant additive maker in the world:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...361#Post2265361

 

[Gokhan]

Thanks for the Japanese link.

According to Infineum, friction, antiwear, extreme-pressure, and antioxidant benefits of moly saturate at 200 ppm and you don't see any gains from having higher concentrations. The presentation is mostly focused on trinuclear moly, which they claim to be the best kind. I don't know for sure if, for mononuclear and dinuclear types, more moly concentrations are perhaps useful. Also, sulfur-free moly compounds are useless, Infineum claims.

For raw MoS_2 though, you would probably need much higher concentrations for full friction, antiwear, and extreme-pressure benefits, as it's not soluble in oil.

 

[boxcartommie22]

what kind of moly in red line and motul?trinuclear,mononuclear, or dinuclear?