Does Dexron VI last 100k?
- Thread starter ryland
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Mike Lovrich of Inglewood Transmission, a name I will remember as an ill informed [censored]!
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Sorry, but DexronVI is an incremental step above DexronIII.
It might be light years ahead of GM's DexIIIh factory fill. But, full synthetic aftermarket ATF's were available decades ago. DexronVI is late to the party. And, its not as great as sliced bread.
It might be light years ahead of GM's DexIIIh factory fill. But, full synthetic aftermarket ATF's were available decades ago. DexronVI is late to the party. And, its not as great as sliced bread.
dnewton3
Staff member
Yet again we're into a situation where we are trying to give a specific answer, and we really have no indication of the use factors.
First of all, if you want to run extended OCIs, then UOAs are going to be your guide. They are the REAL way to know, and not "guess".
Second, I would reason that DEX VI is capable of going 100k miles, given the right conditions. If you spend a lot of time on the highway, with the tc locked up, and the whole unit is up to temps, then I think it's likely all would be fine. If, OTOH, you spend a lot of time on/off the throttle in high summer heat with the tc being "flashed" with engine surges, then I would be a bit leary of 100k miles.
I certainly think that a flush shortly after "new" is always a good idea. I would consider going 10k miles, and then drain/fill to get out the manufacturing remnants. Then, fill with fresh DEX VI and perhaps 100k miles is possible, situation dependent.
Also, it might matter on which DEX VI you choose. WalMart has a licensed Dex VI, but I suspect it's made with a semi-syn base. Valvoline has a full syn Dex VI, in contrast. Perhaps the base stock might play into the lifecycle, don't you think?
But again I stress that knowledge is better than guessing. UOA, UOA, UOA! Go 50k miles, then sample, then decide based upon facts, and not supposition.
First of all, if you want to run extended OCIs, then UOAs are going to be your guide. They are the REAL way to know, and not "guess".
Second, I would reason that DEX VI is capable of going 100k miles, given the right conditions. If you spend a lot of time on the highway, with the tc locked up, and the whole unit is up to temps, then I think it's likely all would be fine. If, OTOH, you spend a lot of time on/off the throttle in high summer heat with the tc being "flashed" with engine surges, then I would be a bit leary of 100k miles.
I certainly think that a flush shortly after "new" is always a good idea. I would consider going 10k miles, and then drain/fill to get out the manufacturing remnants. Then, fill with fresh DEX VI and perhaps 100k miles is possible, situation dependent.
Also, it might matter on which DEX VI you choose. WalMart has a licensed Dex VI, but I suspect it's made with a semi-syn base. Valvoline has a full syn Dex VI, in contrast. Perhaps the base stock might play into the lifecycle, don't you think?
But again I stress that knowledge is better than guessing. UOA, UOA, UOA! Go 50k miles, then sample, then decide based upon facts, and not supposition.
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i was under the impression that the majority of dex vi on the market is a semi-synthetic? except in cases like valvolines dex vi blue bottle (synthetic).
anyone know for sure? mike
anyone know for sure? mike
The only full synthetic I've seen is Valvoline. All the others are semi.
I can't imagine that anyone who really reads the spec could think that Dex VI in a fully synthetic formula isn't a LOT better than ole dex III.
I can't imagine that anyone who really reads the spec could think that Dex VI in a fully synthetic formula isn't a LOT better than ole dex III.
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dnewton3
Staff member
Yes, I think Valvoline is the only licensed DEX VI, but there's others that are non-licensed like Amsoil's ATL, specifically made for the DEX VI application.
Generally, DEX VI is a chemistry based license, rather than a performance based license such as the Allison TES specs. That is my understanding, anyway.
Generally, DEX VI is a chemistry based license, rather than a performance based license such as the Allison TES specs. That is my understanding, anyway.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Mike Lovrich of Inglewood Transmission, a name I will remember as an ill informed [censored]!
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Exactly!! Using Mike as a reference was basically a waste of time based off his statement!
Mike Lovrich of Inglewood Transmission, a name I will remember as an ill informed [censored]!
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Exactly!! Using Mike as a reference was basically a waste of time based off his statement!
Originally Posted By: NightRiderQ45
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Mike Lovrich of Inglewood Transmission, a name I will remember as an ill informed [censored]!
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Exactly!! Using Mike as a reference was basically a waste of time based off his statement!
I love how guys going by anonymous names with absolutely no apparent credentials run down a well known expert in something on the internet.
So you know more about transmissions than Mike L? Where's your shop?
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Mike Lovrich of Inglewood Transmission, a name I will remember as an ill informed [censored]!
Sad, but he doesn't have a clue. Dex VI is light years different from Dex III. Not even in the same galaxy.
Exactly!! Using Mike as a reference was basically a waste of time based off his statement!
I love how guys going by anonymous names with absolutely no apparent credentials run down a well known expert in something on the internet.
So you know more about transmissions than Mike L? Where's your shop?
dnewton3
Staff member
I think we all need to be caution of bashing our sources, but OTOH, some sources are dubious at times.
Allow me to give a specific example:
There exists a fairly well known "article" in a trade magazine that speaks to the topic of some GM transfer cases called "pump rub". The supposed guru who wrote the article suggested an alternative fluid, and to overfill by 50% to address some issues his shop was seeing. His suggestions seemed incredulous to me, so I did a bunch of research, including contacting the professional associations in that industry (reman's), the OEM (New Venture), the warrantor (GM), some lube industry tech lines (Amsoil and Mobil), some people here, and even the article author and personally spoke with him on the phone.
My conclusion is that he swagged it! He had no ability to talk to the specifics of fluid properties, viscosity comparisons, analytical data or anything else. He did not contact the t-case OEM and seek research info. He did not seek out lubricant engineer resources. He simply went to the old "thicker is better; more is better than better" mentality with zero understanding of the engineering issues of the equipment he was referencing. He came off to me as an extremely successful owner of a big business, but was taking a "shade tree mechanica" approach. My opinion is that his opinion is total poo! I believe his mis-diagnosis led him to a poor conclusion. OTOH, he probably thinks little of me; who knows?
My point is that some experts are very good and knowledgeable, and others simply make one or two notable claims, and somehow fall into fame due to mythology and rhetoric. It's up to each of us, individually and collectively, to root out the answer amid all the clutter.
Mike L is well respected my most, and loathed by some. I cannot make a comment on his credibiltiy, but I would caution that it's dangerous to take anyone's word without knowing the full credentials and merit of their view.
Do your own research, and make up your own mind. The best we can hope for is to present true facts and credible data, and allow people to decide for themselves.
How does that releate to this thread? First, I emphatically state that I am NOT an expert. Second, we can make recommendations, but there is no way to know for sure that DEX VI will last 100k miles in your application, but for UOA analysis. Period.
Allow me to give a specific example:
There exists a fairly well known "article" in a trade magazine that speaks to the topic of some GM transfer cases called "pump rub". The supposed guru who wrote the article suggested an alternative fluid, and to overfill by 50% to address some issues his shop was seeing. His suggestions seemed incredulous to me, so I did a bunch of research, including contacting the professional associations in that industry (reman's), the OEM (New Venture), the warrantor (GM), some lube industry tech lines (Amsoil and Mobil), some people here, and even the article author and personally spoke with him on the phone.
My conclusion is that he swagged it! He had no ability to talk to the specifics of fluid properties, viscosity comparisons, analytical data or anything else. He did not contact the t-case OEM and seek research info. He did not seek out lubricant engineer resources. He simply went to the old "thicker is better; more is better than better" mentality with zero understanding of the engineering issues of the equipment he was referencing. He came off to me as an extremely successful owner of a big business, but was taking a "shade tree mechanica" approach. My opinion is that his opinion is total poo! I believe his mis-diagnosis led him to a poor conclusion. OTOH, he probably thinks little of me; who knows?
My point is that some experts are very good and knowledgeable, and others simply make one or two notable claims, and somehow fall into fame due to mythology and rhetoric. It's up to each of us, individually and collectively, to root out the answer amid all the clutter.
Mike L is well respected my most, and loathed by some. I cannot make a comment on his credibiltiy, but I would caution that it's dangerous to take anyone's word without knowing the full credentials and merit of their view.
Do your own research, and make up your own mind. The best we can hope for is to present true facts and credible data, and allow people to decide for themselves.
How does that releate to this thread? First, I emphatically state that I am NOT an expert. Second, we can make recommendations, but there is no way to know for sure that DEX VI will last 100k miles in your application, but for UOA analysis. Period.
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Kestas
Staff member
If more substantial or specific information was presented other than "wouldn't flush his toilet with Dex VI", maybe we could have a more informative discussion.
MolaKule
Staff member
The original question was:
"Does Dexron VI last 100k?
"
I would say only in a perfect car.
Quote:
There is no pre-determined "life" for an auto trans. Too many variables to list.
Of the ones we can control, the fluid is an easy one to manipulate.
There's a realistic answer.
A fluid change within 30,000 miles of new and then 50,000 miles therafter is cheap insurace.
"Does Dexron VI last 100k?
"
I would say only in a perfect car.
Quote:
There is no pre-determined "life" for an auto trans. Too many variables to list.
Of the ones we can control, the fluid is an easy one to manipulate.
There's a realistic answer.
A fluid change within 30,000 miles of new and then 50,000 miles therafter is cheap insurace.
I have YET to see an exceptional ATF UOA after 50k.
I think that ANY rebuilder can and will draw opinions based on what arrives on the rebuilder's bench regularly, and the condition that said component arrives in. I have more respect for the local shop when compared to an automaker's engineering department.
Concerning the "transfer case comments", wrong thread. But, you can take a hammer and swing it at a nail. Now, take that same hammer and swing it at a nail in your swimming pool. Water is slightly more viscous than air;-) Think that a transfer case hammering itself to death can't be prevented? The problem is that engineers don't have a clue other than what their textbook taught them, and many don't have a clue on the failures that they're suppose to R&D out of the final product. Big difference from those of us working in the real world.
The xcase 'overfill' makes up for normal fluid usage/lost over its indefinite change interval, and probably isn't needed for someone who checks the level, notices and tends to leaks, or changes the fluid at 1/4-1/2 the interval required by the manual .
I think that ANY rebuilder can and will draw opinions based on what arrives on the rebuilder's bench regularly, and the condition that said component arrives in. I have more respect for the local shop when compared to an automaker's engineering department.
Concerning the "transfer case comments", wrong thread. But, you can take a hammer and swing it at a nail. Now, take that same hammer and swing it at a nail in your swimming pool. Water is slightly more viscous than air;-) Think that a transfer case hammering itself to death can't be prevented? The problem is that engineers don't have a clue other than what their textbook taught them, and many don't have a clue on the failures that they're suppose to R&D out of the final product. Big difference from those of us working in the real world.
The xcase 'overfill' makes up for normal fluid usage/lost over its indefinite change interval, and probably isn't needed for someone who checks the level, notices and tends to leaks, or changes the fluid at 1/4-1/2 the interval required by the manual .
I found the thread where Mike L says what he says.. I get the impression he's ok with the fully synthetic Dex 6, but you can read it and make your own conclusions.... bottom line for me is, I take his word and experience over most.
http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3056.html
http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-3056.html
Here is another thread I came across with a lot of support for TranSynd over Dex VI... again, read into it what you will... I don't see a lot of UOA's on either to contrast so going with what most recommend isn't a bad place to start.
http://www.duramaxforum.com/forum/altern...sion-fluid.html
http://www.duramaxforum.com/forum/altern...sion-fluid.html
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I've seen both experienced mechanics and experience engineers be completely and utterly WRONG on occasion. It happens... there's no avoiding it- I don't care who you are.
And I've seen experienced engineers disagree with each other. And I've seen experienced mechanics disagree with each other. When it comes to automobiles and machinery, there is rarely a 100% 'right' answer. The best answer often comes down to preference, availability, and the specific application.
Like most things on this site, this is a judgement call. I've no doubt that Transynd is a good ATF (I've seen the results in Allison transmissions at work). But some people who are clearly very knowledgeable claim that DexVI is 'better' than transynd in several respects. Without more information, I'm personally assuming that the two are roughly equal for most purposes. My own preference will come down to availability, shift feel, and what the specific application calls for.
And I've seen experienced engineers disagree with each other. And I've seen experienced mechanics disagree with each other. When it comes to automobiles and machinery, there is rarely a 100% 'right' answer. The best answer often comes down to preference, availability, and the specific application.
Like most things on this site, this is a judgement call. I've no doubt that Transynd is a good ATF (I've seen the results in Allison transmissions at work). But some people who are clearly very knowledgeable claim that DexVI is 'better' than transynd in several respects. Without more information, I'm personally assuming that the two are roughly equal for most purposes. My own preference will come down to availability, shift feel, and what the specific application calls for.
My only question about Dex VI vs TranSynd, at least as far as using it in heavy duty automotive applications... i.e. towing, etc... is ..
How can a Dex VI that is fine for a small Chevy or BMW be strong enough for a diesel truck? Seems like the fluid would either be over kill for the one, or not enough for the other... or am I missing something? Also, I assume we're drawing a distinction between fully synthetic Dex VI and bled or Dyno, or?
How can a Dex VI that is fine for a small Chevy or BMW be strong enough for a diesel truck? Seems like the fluid would either be over kill for the one, or not enough for the other... or am I missing something? Also, I assume we're drawing a distinction between fully synthetic Dex VI and bled or Dyno, or?
IMO, you ARE missing something. There are lots of factors that go into how hard a particular application is on ATF... and I don't think it's necessarily true that a diesel truck is a 'tougher' application than a small car. Yeah, they have more power. They also have more fluid capacity and more cooling capacity. It's entirely possible that a BMW driving around town in hot weather would have hotter ATF and more shifting (and therefore shearing?) than a diesel pickup pulling a load steadily down the highway.
I actually like how Transynd runs in my '01 Chevy Lumina (which technically 'requires' DexVI now according to GM). And I DIDN'T like how DexVI shifted in that transmission (particularly on a full throttle 1-2 upshift). But this is also a vehicle with over 200k miles on it... clearances, friction coefficients, etc. probably aren't the same as tested at the factory. And it wasn't DESIGNED for DexVI anyhow... so I'd be taking GM's word that DexVI is 'close enough'.
I agree with UnDummy that OEM recommendations for ATF are not some ultimate truth handed down from on high. But neither are the opinions of some guy with a transmission shop. IMO, you could run either Transynd or DexVI in your truck- and I seriously doubt there would be any discernible difference.
But about the OP: Does DexVI last 100k? It's an ill-defined question. How do we determine whether or not it "lasted" 100k?
If the transmission still works ok at 100k, then did it 'last' 100k? If so, then yeah. But so will DexIII and lots of other ATF's.
Will a UOA for DexVI look acceptable after 100k miles? Who the [censored] knows? I don't care how good the ATF is... it's still going to be chock full of crud at 100k miles.
If the owner's manual told you to drive off a cliff, would you do it?
I actually like how Transynd runs in my '01 Chevy Lumina (which technically 'requires' DexVI now according to GM). And I DIDN'T like how DexVI shifted in that transmission (particularly on a full throttle 1-2 upshift). But this is also a vehicle with over 200k miles on it... clearances, friction coefficients, etc. probably aren't the same as tested at the factory. And it wasn't DESIGNED for DexVI anyhow... so I'd be taking GM's word that DexVI is 'close enough'.
I agree with UnDummy that OEM recommendations for ATF are not some ultimate truth handed down from on high. But neither are the opinions of some guy with a transmission shop. IMO, you could run either Transynd or DexVI in your truck- and I seriously doubt there would be any discernible difference.
But about the OP: Does DexVI last 100k? It's an ill-defined question. How do we determine whether or not it "lasted" 100k?
If the transmission still works ok at 100k, then did it 'last' 100k? If so, then yeah. But so will DexIII and lots of other ATF's.
Will a UOA for DexVI look acceptable after 100k miles? Who the [censored] knows? I don't care how good the ATF is... it's still going to be chock full of crud at 100k miles.
If the owner's manual told you to drive off a cliff, would you do it?
All makes sense Onion, However... Allison does recommend TranSynd in ALL their boxes, including the one's sold for GM (actually made off sight at a GM facility).. There is a bit of tension on this I know because I've contacted Allison about it and they say "we have to tell you up front, that GM recommends Dex VI, but we disagree and recommend TranSynd" ... I then dug deeper into GM's engineering and got them to admit that for "severe duty" they recommend TranSynd over Dex VI.. As a matter of fact, when it's really cold it's specifically listed as being recommended in this marketing brochure generation with GM and Allison (read toward the last page)..
I'm sure both are "Fine" but I'd be willing to bet that at least for severe duty or long drain intervals (i.e. going 100,000 miles in a car), the TranSynd is better, it's made for severe duty from the get go.
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servl...et=SA5521EN.pdf
I'm sure both are "Fine" but I'd be willing to bet that at least for severe duty or long drain intervals (i.e. going 100,000 miles in a car), the TranSynd is better, it's made for severe duty from the get go.
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servl...et=SA5521EN.pdf
Well, this should prove interesting reading for those who think Dex VI is up to the same job as TranSynd (TES 295).
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadOnDemand?ApplicationID=155&DownloadID=5
it's 21 pages, so I'll give you the cliff notes... go to page 2, note 2..
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadOnDemand?ApplicationID=155&DownloadID=5
it's 21 pages, so I'll give you the cliff notes... go to page 2, note 2..
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