Determination of "acceptible" soot levels

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JHZR2

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Hello,

Have a discussion over at PeachParts discussing for MB diesels what is an acceptable soot level in the oil for operation. Per an old thread here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1284380

and in a few other spots, Doug mentions that manufacturers will provide condemnation levels for soot. Here we are dealing with engines that are 25+ years old quite often, and for which we do not know the condemnation level. To make matters tougher, oil has obviously changed significantly for the better.

An SAE paper implies as per one user's summarization that "In fact close examination shows wear rates for 2% soot to be 2 1/2 times greater than for 1%.

After 3% the rate increases at an even faster rate.

What wear rate one tolerates is a matter of how long you want your motor to last.

It suggests that the soot levels likely are more the result of EPA requirements that what is good for the motor.
"

So how does a manufacturer determine and set a lubricant soot condemnation level? How does one adapt it for current lubricants and their superior detergent/dispersant packages? Is a UOA with particle sizing/counting the best/only method or what else is to it?

Would especially love for Doug to weigh in here...

Thanks!
 
I consider 1% to be excessive, and consider 0.20-0.40% to be acceptable for a normal oil change interval.

When at one point I observed a soot level of over 1%, I switched to a much more robust oil that could handle that much soot, until I corrected the cause of the high soot level.
 
A diesel can and will load the oil with more than 1% and the oils are designed to disperse it properly and safely. Some HDEOs claim dispersancy of at least 2%, some 4%, IIRC. There is a chemical/surface interaction which needs to be part of the balanced add pack and oil flow characteristics, as that dispersed soot is traveling through all the small passages, bearings, etc. Too much soot and something else is displaced both in the add pack chemistry and in the presence of lube oil in the mixture flowing through the engine.

But yours is a good point. You consider 0.4% excessive. Based upon what? wear rates of x ppm of Fe/1000 miles? viscosity increase? What indication do you have that being at .6% soot is destroying your engine?

The best I have is hearsay from the oil manufacturers for how much soot the oil will disperse... But is this maximum? Is this recommended end of life for that oil chemistry? What is the basis for determining condemnation of the lube?
 
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
I consider 1% to be excessive, and consider 0.20-0.40% to be acceptable for a normal oil change interval.

When at one point I observed a soot level of over 1%, I switched to a much more robust oil that could handle that much soot, until I corrected the cause of the high soot level.
The soot is still in the oil.
 
Acceptable soot levels vary from engine to engine. (this assumes a correct oil is being used that deals with expected soot levels well)

When more soot is present than the oil can handle (due to mechanical issue, software issue, or too long interval), it agglomerates rather than remaining dispersed in the oil.
 
Absolutely right. But below that threshold (determined by th lube MFR or the engine MFR) there is some "soot condemnation" level which is determined "somehow". The question is how?
 
FWIW Detroit Diesel posts 4.5% as maximum acceptable soot level for its' PGOS approved oils. At least in their 4 stroke engines, including 60 series, new DDxy and MB engines that they sell and service.

Charlie
 
I think 2-3 percent is a nice upper limit, depending on the engine and the level of care desired. One percent or less is a pretty hard standard to meet on an old MI engine unless you dumped the oil every 1500 miles. With a lack of any condemnation levels from the manufacturer (though I bet they exist somewhere for a researcher to find), do a normal OCI and have the level checked. If you see some obscene number, crank down the OCI. If low, and all other indicators point that way, go longer.

Soot levels will depend a lot on the way the engine is used, it's condition (incl the FI) and the fuel. In my narrow data samples, I see less soot from the new ULSD fuels but I don't have a feel for if that is true all over.
 
Of interest in the SAE paper on soot, referenced above, is this quote:

"With low levels of soot (below 2 per cent), very little of the increase in wear was due to the soot content and the contact mainly experienced lubricated metal-to-metal sliding."

IMO, that put a dent in the claim that 1% is anything close to a danger level. The graph shown indicates that wear levels skyrocket past 3% but the disclaimer that "very little of the increase in wear was due to the soot content" makes one wonder.


Anyways, if you search for "soot limit" on this forum, you'll find some interesting info. Here's a couple of links - some folks are going to 3-6%:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1284380

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=532011

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=604245

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1097996
 
Hi,
Jim - This is quite an interesting subject and should be of interest to operators of all diesel engines. In your case the Neuss is likely to be a "soot producer" and I suspect a limit of around 2% using a modern lubricant is near its limit

The acceptable soot level is usually provided by the engine's manufacturer (as you know not always easy to obtain) and typically in modern high speed heavy diesel (HSHD) engines this will be around 3.5% when using the latest specification lubricant

Until UOAs became readily available a simple "blotter test" was the parameter used by many - including me! It was and still is a great indicator of soot content!

Always try and obtain the engine Manufacturer's acceptable maximum and use it as yours! The Oil Company will also have a limit for the lubricant you are using and that can be used!

FACTORS - Engine design
We have moved along way from pre-chamber mechanically injected diesels to direct injection via real time electronic management. We have low sulphur fuels and much better lubricants now than ever before

A number of things affect soot uptake - of these the greatest factor is engine design, Some engines are designed to dump soot into the lubricant - others expel it via the exhaust (when that was acceptable it was clearly visible)! Now exhaust filters capture it!

Up until the 1990s Euro HSHD engines typically had smaller sumps than their NA competitors but they had specific oil type requirements much earlier too (Volvo's VDS being a leader). Euro HSHD engine manufacturer have moved to larger sumps, synthetic lubricants and supplementary oil cleaners over the last decade or so - and prescribed OCIs out to >100kkms

Other significant factors are engine (and operating acilliaries) condition and servicability along with application and use (conditional on design and intended use)

As designs became more complex the formation of ACEA (and the Euro emission's legacy) and the API's formation of the HDEO engine Manufacturer's consultative Committee, lubricant technologies firstly had to play a "catch up" and then a move on game. The Cummins L10 engine had much to do with this!

Typical ACEA soot related tests are the Cummins ISM (see L10 history) Mack T8E, T11 tests which have sequences ranging from 3.9 to 6.7% soot levels. These were originally OEM Tests and would never have happened via the API alone a decade or two ago. ACEA has been moving the cursor!

FACTORS - Lubricant
IME all things being equal it is the overall composition of the lubricant that determines its soot loading/loaded performance. Some Brands and types do this better than others - and have done for a very long time. It is all about the dispersion qualities of the package leading to the prevention (or minimisation) of agglomeration of the soot particles.
It is the agglomeration of the soot (not necessarily the volume) that promotes excessive wear
Aligned with this is the depletion of the dispersion additives which leads to an ever increasing speed and level of agglomeration in some cases

Keeping the lubricant clean is the answer and a centrifuge oil cleaner may lead to up to double the life of the lubricant (or more) before the soot limit is reached - if the Fe level is not reached beforehand of course!! Centrifuge cleaners tend to do this better than "barrier" by-pass filters. Increases in viscosity (due to soot uptake) in older lubricant formulations were a reality and limits of around a 40% at 40C were allowed
As internal engine technologies progressed such increases became unacceptable!

I have seen (and often argued "goodwill" Warranty on behalf of Clients) where a non prescribed lubricant has been used and the engine is full of deposits. In some cases this requires an engine tear down! The deposits have seriously affected the engine's performance!!

FACTORS - Experience
I experimented with synthetic PCMOs (Castrol's Formula R 15W-50 - later 10W-60) in Japanese light diesels (Isuzu, Kubota etc) commencing in 1979-80. These pre-chamber diesels were notoriously "dirty". By using UOAs we managed to obtain 3500hr OCIs in these engines with the synthetic PCMO. The normal OCI was around 500hrs using an HD oil of that era

In my own case (Class 8 vehicles) I experimented from the early 1990s with high grade mineral (15W-40), semi synthetic (15W-40) and fully synthetic (5W-40) HDEOs over extensive time and distances. There is no doubt that the synthetic HDEO maintained it's viscosity much longer and this is a good measure of the dispersant activity. As well it was always a "see-saw" between which condemnation factor was reached first - Fe (at 150ppm) or soot (at 3.5%)! I used a general limit of 3.5% (averaged) although the lubricant's additive Supplier said that up to 6-7% was acceptable without excessive wear worries

On a "tear down-measure up" inspection of a typical and randomly selected engine of mine by the engine's Manufacturer at 1.2m kms (750k miles) it was found that all parts were within useable tolerances!

FUTURE
It Europe earlier this year I found that at least two Oil Companies were monitoring fuel dilution in small high speed diesels at unprecedented levels and that soot levels were somewhat assisted by this!

We are likely to see sealed lubrication systems and lubricants with dedicated formulations. Centrifuge cleaners and OLMs may lead to no OCIs at all in the longer term

UOA
As for using UOAs - well much has been said about their accuracy, replication and etc. Blotter testing and UOAs (used properly) and along with a PQ Index, TAN and TBN (and PC if cost effective) to determine an acceptable soot level in your engine/application becomes more of a reality via trending the UOA and other results

IMO and depending on the modern quality rated lubricant being used,a limit of around 1.5-3.5% is probably acceptable

As I commented earlier, always try and obtain the engine Manufacturer's acceptable maximum (and the Oil Company's too) and use it as yours!
 
Wow Doug, thanks!

So would you say that it is a combination of viscosity increase and "typical" particle size growth using "typical" lubricants for the day, that determines the soot condemnation level?

Thanks!
 
Hi,
JHZR2 - In a simplistic way yes I suppose you are correct - the engine's designer will have tested to the the extremes during the in-field development phase. The modern dispersants now available do a great job in an overall sense. Those lubricants that were leaders in the field have simply moved up a notch or three and the others have taken their previous performance place - also up a notch or two

A simply dis-assembly of some diesel engine components can give a clue as to the effectiveness of the lubricant in use - especially from a dispersant viewpoint. This is especially so if the wrong lubricant has been used

In some ways the Commercial Fleet users are quick to isolate the non performers and this is one reason why you have only a few major players. Shell, Castrol, Delvac and Chevron-Caltex would have most of the Commercial users tied up. Under performers don't survive in this realm.

Most serious soot related engine issues I have seen have been due to a lack of care and attention to the most basic of service needs. That is, using non Approved (OEM & ACEA/API Quality ratings)lubricants and extending OCIs without careful soot loading monitoring

That said, one Oil Company may be happy with say 3% in an application - another may be happy at 4%. The lubricant's "handling" of the soot loading appears to be the critical factor
 
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To Doug Hillary,
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