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PAO or Ester ? #1864057 04/19/10 10:31 PM
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itsalex Offline OP
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Which syn basestock is better, a PAO or Ester?

I recently found out by some team factory mechanics, that the Superbikes & MotoGP teams use mostly ester based oils, regardless of brands.

What basestock is Amsoil & Mobil 1 motorcycle oil? PAO?
Is Redline motorcycle oil an ester?
I know AGIP & Motul are, are they better?
TIA Alex

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864060 04/19/10 10:35 PM
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ZZman Offline
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Amsoil is PAO

Redline is Ester

You will find that what is best depends on application and the total package. (Base oil and additive package)

Many times a Group III oil with a good additive pack or a Group III mixed with some PAO or Ester is the best overall choice.

Last edited by ZZman; 04/19/10 10:37 PM.

2005 Toyota Avalon XLS 3.5 motor
2014 Ford Fusion 2.5 motor
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864070 04/19/10 10:39 PM
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Ben99GT Offline
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Originally Posted By: itsalex
Which syn basestock is better, a PAO or Ester?


Neither are optimum by themselves. PAO has little to no polarity/solvency/seal swell, and 100% esters have too much. Most PAO based oils have some esters or ANs to help improve polarity/seal swell and most ester based oils have some PAO to keep seal swell in check. It can get real complicated with all of the different esters out there, but that's the general idea. Esters do have much better inherent lubricity, based on everything I've read on the subject.

Quote:
What basestock is Amsoil & Mobil 1 motorcycle oil? PAO?


PAO

Quote:
Is Redline motorcycle oil an ester?


Redline motor oils and gear oils all use polyol ester base stocks.



2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 381,000+ miles- Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20/Wix 51372XP
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - Amsoil AZF 0W-40/Amsoil EAO11

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864104 04/19/10 11:01 PM
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DieselTech Offline
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Group III,IV,V all have their benefits

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864109 04/19/10 11:05 PM
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itsalex Offline OP
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What is a double ester formula?

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864125 04/19/10 11:23 PM
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d00df00d Offline
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No such thing as "better." They are for different purposes.

PAOs have better cold flow, resist chemical contamination very well, and cause seals to shrink and harden. Esters stick to metal and form strong films, resist high temperatures very well, and cause seals to swell and soften. Neither one would make a very good engine oil on its own, except maybe for very specialized purposes.

There are also group III+ base stocks, which are also considered synthetic. Those are like PAOs in some ways, better in others, and only worse in terms of cold flow.

Most good oils will be some kind of mix of the above. It's entirely possible that the most important ingredient (and thus the one the oil advertises) is only present in relatively small amounts; some of RLI's BioSyn oils and Nissan's Ester Oil are examples of this. This is one reason why it's impossible to say one oil is better than another one just because of what the company claims it's made of.

As far as comparing brands, all the ones you named are good. If you pick out specific products, maybe we can narrow down the comparison a little.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864127 04/19/10 11:24 PM
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d00df00d Offline
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Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?

That's Motul code for "we use two different kinds of esters, but we won't tell you what kinds or how much of each." wink

I take it you're looking at 300V?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864128 04/19/10 11:27 PM
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Ben99GT Offline
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Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?


That's a Motul marketing term, and I have no idea what it means.


2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 381,000+ miles- Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20/Wix 51372XP
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - Amsoil AZF 0W-40/Amsoil EAO11

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: d00df00d] #1864131 04/19/10 11:29 PM
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DieselTech Offline
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?

That's Motul code for "we use two different kinds of esters, but we won't tell you what kinds or how much of each." wink

I take it you're looking at 300V?


Thats a good way to put it. 300V is a great product. I like redline myself. It all comes down to what your driving, habits are. For most daily driven cars groupIII+ oil are fine and PAO are to. Group V oils maybe considered overkill for most, but I like them. If your car is turboed or DI, motul and redline are pretty tough to beat.

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: DieselTech] #1864140 04/19/10 11:37 PM
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Ben99GT Offline
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Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information

Last edited by Bill in Utah; 04/19/10 11:43 PM. Reason: Fixed link

2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 381,000+ miles- Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20/Wix 51372XP
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - Amsoil AZF 0W-40/Amsoil EAO11

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: d00df00d] #1864165 04/20/10 12:20 AM
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itsalex Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: d00df00d
No such thing as "better." They are for different purposes.

PAOs have better cold flow, resist chemical contamination very well, and cause seals to shrink and harden. Esters stick to metal and form strong films, resist high temperatures very well, and cause seals to swell and soften. Neither one would make a very good engine oil on its own, except maybe for very specialized purposes.

There are also group III+ base stocks, which are also considered synthetic. Those are like PAOs in some ways, better in others, and only worse in terms of cold flow.

Most good oils will be some kind of mix of the above. It's entirely possible that the most important ingredient (and thus the one the oil advertises) is only present in relatively small amounts; some of RLI's BioSyn oils and Nissan's Ester Oil are examples of this. This is one reason why it's impossible to say one oil is better than another one just because of what the company claims it's made of.

As far as comparing brands, all the ones you named are good. If you pick out specific products, maybe we can narrow down the comparison a little.


The oil will be for my Ducati Hypermotard, a 1100cc air-cooled L-twin, I use it for canyon riding and track-days,the motor has been highly modified, and HP to the rear wheel is up from 80HP to 106HP, about 30%. I live in SoCal and the tracks in the desert can get real HOT!

So my choices would be:
Amsoil 20W-50 (MCV) "PAO"
Redline 20W-50 motorcycle oil "ESTER"
Mobil 1 20W-50 V-Twin motorcycle oil "PAO"

So what do you guys think?
TIA Alex

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864194 04/20/10 01:49 AM
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Redline in the Duc!!

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864220 04/20/10 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information


Good information there!


Keeping the forces of evil at bay
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Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: BobsArmory] #1864244 04/20/10 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information


Good information there!


From my reading it means that i can mix polyol esters (pag oil)or refrigerant oil in my synthetic oil for better lubrication Or I can just use airplane engine lubricants like avblend. See ,I learn something new every day.

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: ZZman] #1864246 04/20/10 06:37 AM
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Pablo Offline
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Originally Posted By: ZZman
Amsoil is PAO

Redline is Ester



Not 100% true. (but often repeated on BITOG) And you can see this misinformation has lead the OP down the wrong path.

Amsoil has PAO's, Redline has PAO's. Amsoil has esters and Redline has esters. Depending on which oil we are talking about Redline probably does use more esters in their motor oils, but some/most are 30-40%+ PAO. Amsoil is probably higher at 50%+ PAO.


DIRECT JOBBER - PABLO - for all your Amsoil needs
http://oilslubesandfilters.shopamsoil.com/


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