Recent Topics
Oil for my 2006 5.9 Cummins
by mobilaltima - 08/20/19 09:35 PM
Vise stand
by clinebarger - 08/20/19 09:29 PM
Ecoboost filter
by mpgo4th - 08/20/19 09:16 PM
Removing Sludge to Prevent Engine Failure?
by 04CorCar - 08/20/19 09:05 PM
ULSD and HPFP's
by sloinker - 08/20/19 08:54 PM
2018 Grand Caravan 1 year review
by tiger862 - 08/20/19 08:28 PM
The 10mm socket
by cwilliamsws6 - 08/20/19 08:12 PM
What Fuel is it?
by MolaKule - 08/20/19 08:01 PM
Oil stashes..
by Mad_Hatter - 08/20/19 07:49 PM
Sealing Redundant Door
by gathermewool - 08/20/19 07:25 PM
Cam2 Dexos1 Gen 2 found at Napa
by bbhero - 08/20/19 06:59 PM
Flywheel broke 2012 V8 Silverado, with pics
by 01rangerxl - 08/20/19 05:10 PM
Blade for brush cutter
by Donald - 08/20/19 04:47 PM
Amplifier shipping nightmare
by cwilliamsws6 - 08/20/19 04:23 PM
O2 sensor recommendation
by Number_35 - 08/20/19 04:15 PM
Rental Home Insurance....
by JLTD - 08/20/19 03:30 PM
Amsoil SS Noack numbers
by SlavaB - 08/20/19 03:08 PM
Is my starter drawing to many amps?
by joegreen - 08/20/19 02:41 PM
2004 Volvo XC-90 codes
by Kira - 08/20/19 01:42 PM
Newest Members
Al13, HughBeaumont, 04CorCar, reba, Dope
69013 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
98 registered members (4WD, 04CorCar, 01rangerxl, ABerns, 7 invisible), 2,091 guests, and 23 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics293,582
Posts5,042,846
Members69,013
Most Online3,532
Jul 30th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 5 1 2 5
PAO or Ester ? #1864057 04/19/10 10:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
I
itsalex Offline OP
OP Offline
I
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
Which syn basestock is better, a PAO or Ester?

I recently found out by some team factory mechanics, that the Superbikes & MotoGP teams use mostly ester based oils, regardless of brands.

What basestock is Amsoil & Mobil 1 motorcycle oil? PAO?
Is Redline motorcycle oil an ester?
I know AGIP & Motul are, are they better?
TIA Alex

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864060 04/19/10 10:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,621
Z
ZZman Offline
Offline
Z
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,621
Amsoil is PAO

Redline is Ester

You will find that what is best depends on application and the total package. (Base oil and additive package)

Many times a Group III oil with a good additive pack or a Group III mixed with some PAO or Ester is the best overall choice.

Last edited by ZZman; 04/19/10 10:37 PM.

2003 Mercury Grand Marquis.
2007 Hyundai Santa Fe AWD.
2005 Toyota Avalon XLS
2006 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT.
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864070 04/19/10 10:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
B
Ben99GT Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
Originally Posted By: itsalex
Which syn basestock is better, a PAO or Ester?


Neither are optimum by themselves. PAO has little to no polarity/solvency/seal swell, and 100% esters have too much. Most PAO based oils have some esters or ANs to help improve polarity/seal swell and most ester based oils have some PAO to keep seal swell in check. It can get real complicated with all of the different esters out there, but that's the general idea. Esters do have much better inherent lubricity, based on everything I've read on the subject.

Quote:
What basestock is Amsoil & Mobil 1 motorcycle oil? PAO?


PAO

Quote:
Is Redline motorcycle oil an ester?


Redline motor oils and gear oils all use polyol ester base stocks.



2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 321,000 miles- PP 5W-20/MC FL-820S
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - PP Euro 0W-40/Wix 51372XP

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864104 04/19/10 11:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
D
DieselTech Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
Group III,IV,V all have their benefits

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864109 04/19/10 11:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
I
itsalex Offline OP
OP Offline
I
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
What is a double ester formula?

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864125 04/19/10 11:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,639
D
d00df00d Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,639
No such thing as "better." They are for different purposes.

PAOs have better cold flow, resist chemical contamination very well, and cause seals to shrink and harden. Esters stick to metal and form strong films, resist high temperatures very well, and cause seals to swell and soften. Neither one would make a very good engine oil on its own, except maybe for very specialized purposes.

There are also group III+ base stocks, which are also considered synthetic. Those are like PAOs in some ways, better in others, and only worse in terms of cold flow.

Most good oils will be some kind of mix of the above. It's entirely possible that the most important ingredient (and thus the one the oil advertises) is only present in relatively small amounts; some of RLI's BioSyn oils and Nissan's Ester Oil are examples of this. This is one reason why it's impossible to say one oil is better than another one just because of what the company claims it's made of.

As far as comparing brands, all the ones you named are good. If you pick out specific products, maybe we can narrow down the comparison a little.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864127 04/19/10 11:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,639
D
d00df00d Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,639
Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?

That's Motul code for "we use two different kinds of esters, but we won't tell you what kinds or how much of each." wink

I take it you're looking at 300V?


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864128 04/19/10 11:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
B
Ben99GT Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?


That's a Motul marketing term, and I have no idea what it means.


2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 321,000 miles- PP 5W-20/MC FL-820S
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - PP Euro 0W-40/Wix 51372XP

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: d00df00d] #1864131 04/19/10 11:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
D
DieselTech Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: itsalex
What is a double ester formula?

That's Motul code for "we use two different kinds of esters, but we won't tell you what kinds or how much of each." wink

I take it you're looking at 300V?


Thats a good way to put it. 300V is a great product. I like redline myself. It all comes down to what your driving, habits are. For most daily driven cars groupIII+ oil are fine and PAO are to. Group V oils maybe considered overkill for most, but I like them. If your car is turboed or DI, motul and redline are pretty tough to beat.

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: DieselTech] #1864140 04/19/10 11:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
B
Ben99GT Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,358
Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information

Last edited by Bill in Utah; 04/19/10 11:43 PM. Reason: Fixed link

2001 F150 Supercrew 4.6 - 321,000 miles- PP 5W-20/MC FL-820S
2011 Shelby GT500 SVTPP - 705 RWHP - PP Euro 0W-40/Wix 51372XP

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: d00df00d] #1864165 04/20/10 12:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
I
itsalex Offline OP
OP Offline
I
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 38
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
No such thing as "better." They are for different purposes.

PAOs have better cold flow, resist chemical contamination very well, and cause seals to shrink and harden. Esters stick to metal and form strong films, resist high temperatures very well, and cause seals to swell and soften. Neither one would make a very good engine oil on its own, except maybe for very specialized purposes.

There are also group III+ base stocks, which are also considered synthetic. Those are like PAOs in some ways, better in others, and only worse in terms of cold flow.

Most good oils will be some kind of mix of the above. It's entirely possible that the most important ingredient (and thus the one the oil advertises) is only present in relatively small amounts; some of RLI's BioSyn oils and Nissan's Ester Oil are examples of this. This is one reason why it's impossible to say one oil is better than another one just because of what the company claims it's made of.

As far as comparing brands, all the ones you named are good. If you pick out specific products, maybe we can narrow down the comparison a little.


The oil will be for my Ducati Hypermotard, a 1100cc air-cooled L-twin, I use it for canyon riding and track-days,the motor has been highly modified, and HP to the rear wheel is up from 80HP to 106HP, about 30%. I live in SoCal and the tracks in the desert can get real HOT!

So my choices would be:
Amsoil 20W-50 (MCV) "PAO"
Redline 20W-50 motorcycle oil "ESTER"
Mobil 1 20W-50 V-Twin motorcycle oil "PAO"

So what do you guys think?
TIA Alex

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: itsalex] #1864194 04/20/10 01:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
D
DieselTech Offline
Offline
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
Redline in the Duc!!

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: Ben99GT] #1864220 04/20/10 05:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,447
B
BobsArmory Offline
Offline
B
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,447
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information


Good information there!


Keeping the forces of evil at bay
2016 Chevy Malibu LT 1.5 Liter Turbo
2017 Chevy Equinox LT 2.4 Liter
2007 Pontiac Grand Prix 3800 Series III
Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: BobsArmory] #1864244 04/20/10 06:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,350
C
chad8 Offline
Offline
C
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,350
Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Here's some reading on esters if you're interested:

Esters information


Good information there!


From my reading it means that i can mix polyol esters (pag oil)or refrigerant oil in my synthetic oil for better lubrication Or I can just use airplane engine lubricants like avblend. See ,I learn something new every day.

Re: PAO or Ester ? [Re: ZZman] #1864246 04/20/10 06:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47,305
Pablo Offline
Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47,305
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Amsoil is PAO

Redline is Ester



Not 100% true. (but often repeated on BITOG) And you can see this misinformation has lead the OP down the wrong path.

Amsoil has PAO's, Redline has PAO's. Amsoil has esters and Redline has esters. Depending on which oil we are talking about Redline probably does use more esters in their motor oils, but some/most are 30-40%+ PAO. Amsoil is probably higher at 50%+ PAO.


DIRECT JOBBER - PABLO - for all your Amsoil needs
http://oilslubesandfilters.shopamsoil.com/


Page 1 of 5 1 2 5
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™