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API SM to SN....no real change? #1750244
01/21/10 09:58 AM
01/21/10 09:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,833
Canada
addyguy Offline OP
addyguy  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,833
Canada
I don't know the details off-hand, but from what I've seen, the change from API SM to SN will not be a 'large' one as far as oil formulations/specs are concerned.

Additive levels haven't changed at all, ZN is still =/>800; PH is still =/>600; NOAK is still >15%. Changes are minor, and involve additive volatility, and friction reduction for FE.

So, API SN oils are going to 'look' the exact same as SM. If you look at the PDS of the new Pennzoil 'Ultra' Syn, the specs are almost the EXACT same as PP....you can't really tell a difference.

You could often easily tell an API SL oil from a SM - additive levels were lower, SM oils were often slightly thinner than SL versions, and additive packs changed. With SN, I don't think you're going to see this, the oils will look the exact same.

I know the changes that have been made to the requirements are subtle and necessary, but I'm not sure we really need a new API category.....your thought?


2010 Kia Soul 2U - 2.0L I-4, auto; 144k miles.
Castrol GTX HM 5W-30, STP blue bottle; Fram TG 9688.

2009 Pontiac G5 - 2.2 I-4, auto, 121k miles.
Oil/filter TBD
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: addyguy] #1750252
01/21/10 10:04 AM
01/21/10 10:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 11,410
The Sandhills of NewYorkistan
GROUCHO MARX Offline
GROUCHO MARX  Offline

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 11,410
The Sandhills of NewYorkistan
I just hope the SM oils start selling a huge discounts when SN appears.


80% of people polled say that their neighbor should take mass transit to work.
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: addyguy] #1750253
01/21/10 10:04 AM
01/21/10 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,622
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,622
PA
Who cares if we can't tell them apart from spec sheets? Spec sheets were never a good way to compare oils anyway. That's one reason why we have API categories in the first place. wink

I think lower additive volatility and lower friction are great changes that could benefit everyone. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the new oils will perform.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: d00df00d] #1750269
01/21/10 10:14 AM
01/21/10 10:14 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13,072
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13,072
N.H, U.S.A.
I'm looking forward to see how the API SL and SJ oils I stashed up on perform this summer v. the ILSAC GF-4 swill.


2019 VW Jetta S 6MT OCI#0 5033mi-Castrol Edge Prof? VW508+OE Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#7 52665mi-Castrol GTX Magnatec 5W20 + SOA Filter
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: ARCOgraphite] #1750272
01/21/10 10:16 AM
01/21/10 10:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,239
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,239
Illinois
Not sure what you mean? GF-4 Swill?


2007 Ford Fusion 245,000 miles
M1 5-20HM
2017 Ford Fusion 73K
M1 0-20EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
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MC filters

Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: d00df00d] #1750273
01/21/10 10:16 AM
01/21/10 10:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,995
Milwaukee, WI
bepperb Offline
bepperb  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,995
Milwaukee, WI
I thought there were also increases in high heat deposits, and TBN retention on ethanol?

I agree that the VOA's might not look much different. But, there appears to be several small changes that all seem relevant to next generation of small displacment, DI and forced induction engines running on E10 and requiring high fuel economy numbers.

What I'll find interesting, is the difference between DEXOS and SN.


2004 Highlander 2.4
2011 Toyota Sienna 3.5
Recently Gone:
2006 Accord 2.4l K24A8
1993 Kawi EX 500
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: bepperb] #1750314
01/21/10 10:50 AM
01/21/10 10:50 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14,013
Retired | Wausau, WI
Johnny Offline
Johnny  Offline

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14,013
Retired | Wausau, WI
I guarantee you none of us can tell any real differences by just looking at spec sheets and msds sheets. They certainly don't tell the whole story. The new GF-5/API SN oils will have better deposit control and better wear (anti-wear additives) and friction modifiers. There are chemicals/additives in there that won't show up on your average VOA or UOA.

Please give me the newest SWILL, I want it.

Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: Johnny] #1750330
01/21/10 11:09 AM
01/21/10 11:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,547
North Texas
hominid7 Offline
hominid7  Offline

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,547
North Texas
I wonder if the recent formulation change in Pennzoil and Quakerstate (boost in boron) were in prep of the change to SN?


Dan W.
2017 Hyundai Elantra
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: hominid7] #1750354
01/21/10 11:31 AM
01/21/10 11:31 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,856
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Global Moderator
Patman  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,856
Oakville, Ontario
I always welcome the change to a new standard because the oils are definitely improving with each step. I know a few of you will say "what about the drop in ZDDP over the years?" but I think that if you look at the UOAs you can see that the latest oils have no problem in terms of engine wear, so the reduction of ZDDP is not causing our engines to wear faster (with the exception being high performance engines with flat tappet cams, but those engines should not be running an off the shelf oil anyhow) They are obviously coming up with a lot of new ways to provide friction reduction inside an engine other than ZDDP!

I think each new standard makes the oil companies formulate their oils to be a lot cleaner, and engine cleanliness is an important thing to consider! I do believe that we're going to get to a point in the very near future where it's going to be nearly impossible to have sludge buildup in an engine unless it's severely neglected (or has a coolant leak)

I'm just glad I don't stockpile huge amounts of oil for my car anymore (I've got enough PP for this year's 2 oil changes only) as I'm very eager to try out the new SN rated Pennzoil Ultra when it comes out.


2018 Corvette, 13k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 151k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,116k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: Patman] #1750388
01/21/10 11:56 AM
01/21/10 11:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,649
Bowie, MD
sangyup81 Offline
sangyup81  Offline

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,649
Bowie, MD
Well since GF-4 went to GF-5, I'm sure the SM wanted to change as well

Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: sangyup81] #1750556
01/21/10 01:51 PM
01/21/10 01:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
Fontana, California
getnpsi Offline
getnpsi  Offline

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 698
Fontana, California
Any move to go longer on the same oil is a step in the right direction. I'd like to think it's more green, even if its a few more bucks an oil change. If the engines that tend to need drains more often can hold back longer and stay clean then that's great. Sludge and wear are two very different things.

Does e10 really change UOA compared to regular fuel? I can understand E85 as it's so much more of the stuff.


2004 Dodge Neon SRT-4 Turbo
2009 Toyota Camry 2.4L
2012 Kawasaki KLR-650

1989 Mustang GT hatch
1989 Merkur Xr4ti
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: getnpsi] #1750561
01/21/10 01:58 PM
01/21/10 01:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,406
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 31,406
NJ
The improvements will be found in high temperature deposit control and better friction reduction. Most of your current synthetics won't change much as they already do a good job at that.


2015 Mazda 3 2.0 - Mobil 1 EP 0w20
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: buster] #1750669
01/21/10 03:40 PM
01/21/10 03:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,479
Chicago Area
mechtech2 Offline
mechtech2  Offline

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,479
Chicago Area
buster - Synthetics are better at friction reduction than dino? Really?

Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: Johnny] #1751095
01/21/10 11:08 PM
01/21/10 11:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 17,568
Michigan
daves87rs Offline
daves87rs  Offline

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 17,568
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Johnny
I guarantee you none of us can tell any real differences by just looking at spec sheets and msds sheets. They certainly don't tell the whole story. The new GF-5/API SN oils will have better deposit control and better wear (anti-wear additives) and friction modifiers. There are chemicals/additives in there that won't show up on your average VOA or UOA.

Please give me the newest SWILL, I want it.



Now that is cool....


2019 Chevrolet Equinox LS
2006 Chevrolet Cobalt LS
Re: API SM to SN....no real change? [Re: ARCOgraphite] #1755046
01/25/10 01:48 PM
01/25/10 01:48 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13,072
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 13,072
N.H, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I'm looking forward to see how the API SL and SJ oils I stashed up on perform this summer v. the ILSAC GF-4 swill.
No GF4 stand up to my hard driving in my yaris which is only tuned to only a liitle over 1lb-ft/cuin at 5300rpm (id est, equal to a hot 350HP 350v8 for specific output). At least the 1nz has a good sump volume per swept area.


2019 VW Jetta S 6MT OCI#0 5033mi-Castrol Edge Prof? VW508+OE Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#7 52665mi-Castrol GTX Magnatec 5W20 + SOA Filter
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