VW/Audi oil spec question - does 504 replace 502?

[OldBaldy]

OK, I have an Audi S4 B6 which requires a VW 502.00 oil.

I see from various oil manufacturer products information, that the later VW 504.00/507.00 spec oils are backward compatible with earlier specs such as 502.00 (with some rare exceptions on the diesel side, where the 507 spec does not replace 506.01 etc).

Can anyone definitively tell me if the VW spec test for spec 504.00 includes all the requirements of their earlier 502.00 spec test?

I've been told that while 504 CAN be used in place of 502 on my Audi, the 502 is a BETTER oil in terms of wear and protection.

All of this is in the context of regular, fixed duration oil changes, NOT for use in extended oil changes.

Can anyone confirm or deny this opinion?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
OldBaldy - The heirachy of VW Approved lubricants is a little confusing - some have been superceded and others added

IIRC the first "modern" VW Specifications were VW500 and VW505 at around 11/92

Castrol's Formula SLX 0W-30 (known as GC on here) was Approved to these in 1995

As I understand it VW502, VW505.01, VW504 and VW507 are the current VW Specifications. IMO it is probably best to use the one specified for your engine and VW502 remains current until 2010 I believe

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
OK, I have an Audi S4 B6 which requires a VW 502.00 oil.

I see from various oil manufacturer products information, that the later VW 504.00/507.00 spec oils are backward compatible with earlier specs such as 502.00 (with some rare exceptions on the diesel side, where the 507 spec does not replace 506.01 etc).

Can anyone definitively tell me if the VW spec test for spec 504.00 includes all the requirements of their earlier 502.00 spec test?

I've been told that while 504 CAN be used in place of 502 on my Audi, the 502 is a BETTER oil in terms of wear and protection.

All of this is in the context of regular, fixed duration oil changes, NOT for use in extended oil changes.

Can anyone confirm or deny this opinion?


The new specifications, 504.00 for gas engines and 507.00 for diesels, supersede 502.00 for gassers and 505.00/505.01 for diesels.

At least some VW and Audi dealerships have begun stocking ONLY the 504.00/507.00 oil, as it reduces the need to keep an inventory of several oils and it prevents inadvertent use of the wrong oil. (VW dealerships are still screwing up oil changes on 2004 models, even after five-plus years they have not learned which oil to use.)

 

[UG_Passat]

you can use 504 spec oil your car. I haven't had good experiences using 504 on my 2.0T, which has direct injection--- the oil consumption rate is too much with the 5w30/504 oil.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Tornado Red - I could not sight any evidence that VW502 and VW505.01 have been superceded. They are still unique on the VW and Audi Lists that I have

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Tornado Red - I could not sight any evidence that VW502 and VW505.01 have been superceded. They are still unique on the VW and Audi Lists that I have


VW does different things for different markets.

VW502 is a fixed interval oil. Since I'm not familiar with Australia's maintenance requirements, does VW used fixed intervals only? If not, then it uses a different oil.

VW505.01 was primarily developed for the Pumpe Duse engines running on fixed intervals. Since Australia got the 2.0L Common Rail with DPF's, very likely, VW is using 507 specification in australia.

now I gotta search for the VAG tech bulletin that describes 504/507

 

[Tornado Red]

Doug: What I have seen are PDF copies of letters from VW, with VWoA letterhead, telling the concerned customers that it's okay to use 507.00 instead of 505.01 or 506.01, and that using 507.00 will meet warranty requirements.

But I do not recall actually seeing any blanket statement from VW. It sounds to me like there might be an internal debate between the engineers and the lawyers. The engineers think 504.00/507.00 oils should be suitable in almost every engine. But then the lawyers think there needs to be a loophole, so they can justify denying warranty coverage on occasion.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
my references are from Official NA VW Technical Bulletin documents that List WW Approved lubricants and those available in NA

I believe that VW here in OZ only use VW prescribed lubricants and these are Castrol 5W-40 synthetics - either Edge or Syntec. I'll try and delve a little deeper

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
my references are from Official NA VW Technical Bulletin documents that List WW Approved lubricants and those available in NA

I believe that VW here in OZ only use VW prescribed lubricants and these are Castrol 5W-40 synthetics - either Edge or Syntec. I'll try and delve a little deeper


Doug

My local Audi dealers here in the Michigan USA area use only Castrol 5W-30 SLX Professional OE oil - which is 502.00, in my S4 for service.

I buy the oil from them (for top-up), but have been wondering lately if the 504.00 spec from VW includes all the test requirements from 502.00, as my assumption has been that the long-life 504.00 spec which is rated for up to 30K kms or thereabouts, must be a better quality oil than a shorter duration oil such as the 502.00 spec oil. Certainly, it seems that all the oil manufacturer/distributors selling 504.00 oils have these at near their top price range, and nearly all of them state that the 504/507 oil is backward compatible with the 502 spec.

I'm not looking to run 10+k mile OCI in my S4...I'm simply looking for the best possible oil. Price is not a major concern. If 504 is "better" than 502 for wear and tear, when used for regular fixed OCI, then I'd switch from the SLX Pro OE to the 504 spec oils.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
OldBaldy - Sorry I can't answer your questions about supercessions. I think it old that VW would not have simply said so when 504 and 507 were introduced

The Castrol 5W-30 SLX Professional OE lubricant used by your Audi Dealer is a "top shelf" product from Castrol and is now being used extensively here in Australia. If the VW Approvals were all compatible this would be one lubricant that would show it on the endorsements (on the container). Castrol worrks very closely with VW Audi on all component development matters

If you PM me with your email address I will send you the documents I have - these show the lubricanst you are using to be VW502 and VW505.01 compliant and a variant of this lubricant endorsed as LL03 for VW504 and VW507

 

[OldBaldy]

Some interesting info from the Motul 504/507 product info.

Gasoline and Diesel oil for EURO IV engines
100% Synthetic

MSRP: $13.99 / Liter
(12 - 1 Liter Bottles per case)


TYPE OF USE

Specifically designed for VAG Group recent cars (Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat) fitted with EURO IV engines that require lubricants with low Sulphur, low Phosphorus and low Sulphated Ashes rates.

VW Approvals

Back compatibility of Motul Specific 504 00-507 00 5W-30 over previous VW oil standards 502.00, 505.00, 505.01, 503.00, 503.01, 506.00 or 506.01

Attention :
- Touareg R5 and V10 Tdi must use Motul Specific 506 01-506 00-503 00.
- Drain intervals remain fixed at 15 000 km in Europe for any car calling for VW 502 00, 505 00 or 505 01 oils even if vehicles use Motul Specific 504 00-507 00.
- In case of doubt, refer to owner manual oil specification.

PERFORMANCES

APPROVALS Volkswagen 504 00 / 507 00
* Engines compliant with EURO IV emission regulation are fitted with sensitive systems for exhaust gas after treatment :
- Sulphur and Phosphorus inhibit catalytic convertors operation and can damage catalytic
components : inefficient exhaust gas treatment.
- Sulphated Ashes clog diesel particulate filters : shorter regenerating cycle, higher fuel consumption and engine power loss.
Volkswagen developed VW 504 00 507 00 standard for lubricants with low Sulphur, Phosphorus and Sulphated Ashes content, compatible with after treatment systems. Those oils allow reaching extended drain intervals managed by computer on board.

RECOMMENDATION

Drain interval : refer to manufacturers’ recommendations and tune to your own use.
Do not mix with lubricants not VW 504 00 507 00 compliant.

PROPERTIES

Viscosity grade SAE J 300 5W-30
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.848
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 11.7 mm²/s
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 72.3 mm²/s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 157
Pour point ASTM D97 -39°C / -38°F
Flash point ASTM D92 242°C / 467°F
TBN ASTM D 2896 7.2 mg KOH/g

 

[UG_Passat]

Castrol SLX Pro OE is also 505.00 & 505.01 rated as well-- which is actually better than other Castrol oils that only meet 502.00/505.00

The latest oil list from VW's website does "say" 504/507 is acceptable for gasoline engines

http://www.vw.com/myvw/yourcar/maintenance/en/us/images/vw_oil_recommendations.pdf

 

[Tornado Red]

I don't think you will ever see an oil that is tested to all the specs; if it's 504.00/507.00 approved, there is no need to test against the older 502.00/505.00/505.01 specs.

So VAG/VWoA/VWoC needs to explicitly state that 504.00 and 507.00 supersede the older specs. They need to tell the dealerships to make the switch, instead of letting each dealership stock and use whichever oil they want. They need to notify the lubricant makers that if they are already producing a 504/507 oil, there is no need to keep producing the older (inferior) oils.

Occasionally we still hear about dealerships using the wrong oil -- not just the previous-generation oil but the stuff that was only suitable for engines two generations older. This is just one of the reasons why VW dealerships have earned such a poor reputation -- if they cannot even do a proper oil change, how can you trust them with major repairs or other routine maintenance?

 

[Tornado Red]

You can use this to compare different generations of VAG oil specs:

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
You can use this to compare different generations of VAG oil specs:

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html


WOW!!! That's an interesting performance characteristics utility. What makes this entire discussion even MORE confusing is that 502.00 seems to have two versions, one from 1997 and one from 2005, which is LATER (NEWER) than the 504/507 spec!

It is very interesting to compare the 504 to the new 502 spec.

According to this diagram, 504 provides compared to 502:

-significantly more anti-wear ("10" vs. "4"),
-better piston deposit control ("10" vs "7+"),
-better fuel economy ("5" vs "0"), and
-significantly better "afterteatment compatibility" ("8" vs "0")

with the same protection for:

-Soot thickening,
-Sludge and
-Oxidative thickening

For me, the key improvements here are the wear and fuel economy specs that 504 seems to have over 502.

If all of this is close to reality, then it would seem to bear out that the more expensive 504 oils provide overall better characteristics than the 502 oils, albeit at a significant price premium.

As always, I guess the "devil is in the details" - and this is the unknown that I wish VW would really step up and clarify.

If I had to summarize here, I would say this.....

According to this unofficial, but seemingly clear source, for my B6 S4 4.2 motor, the recommended 502.00 spec oil is obviously sufficient for expected wear & tear for the expected life of the motor. But a good 504.00 oil provides at least as much protection as the key characteristics that the 502 oils provide, and , in addition, provides some improvements in wear and fuel economy and piston deposit control.

So now...do I switch to a 504 oil or not....

 

[OldBaldy]

I will say that I'm suspicious about one thing on this comparison...and that is that on the diesel side, while 507 is shown as all-encompassing over 506.01 spec, we all know that 507 is NOT recommended for the early V10 diesel motors, which need 506.01. If this comparison were accurate, I would expect to see some performance benefit shown for 506.01 over 507, but this is not the case. Using this utility, if you overlaid 506.01 and 507, you'd think you could use 507 in those early vehicles....hmmmm!

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
I will say that I'm suspicious about one thing on this comparison...and that is that on the diesel side, while 507 is shown as all-encompassing over 506.01 spec, we all know that 507 is NOT recommended for the early V10 diesel motors, which need 506.01. If this comparison were accurate, I would expect to see some performance benefit shown for 506.01 over 507, but this is not the case. Using this utility, if you overlaid 506.01 and 507, you'd think you could use 507 in those early vehicles....hmmmm!


Initially, yes, 507 was not recommended for vehicles that used 506.01 (ie Touareg V10 & R5)

However, VAG has issued bulletins saying 507 is acceptable

 

[felixthecat]

I think the specs of Mobil 1 5w-30 ESP summarize the compatibility issues well (from Mobil website) :


Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the following builder approvals:

Volkswagen (Gasoline/Diesel) 504 00 / 507 00.

Also recommended for use in applications requiring:

Volkswagen (Gasoline) 502 00 / 503 00 / 503 01
Volkswagen* (Diesel) 505 01/ 505 00 / 506 00 / 506 01
*All VW engines with the exception of Unit-Injector/Pump-Duse TDI without Longlife Service and without DPF between 1999-2003 and R5/V10-TDi before model year 2006.

 

[felixthecat]

.......one MAY use a 504 oil where 502 required.
Not sure if one SHOULD.....let me know when you find out!
I share your frustration. Consider that 504 oils are only available in 5w-30 viscosity range while 502 oils are available in a range of viscosities up to 0w-40.
Additionally oils that are 504/507 specific tend not to have multiple manufacturers approvals.
As far as I know VW standards are not available for general consumption like API or ACEA further adding to speculation : are these oils better oils or just newer?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
felixthecat - It is interesting to note that of the 21 Mobil lubricants Listed by VW-Audi to meet either VW502.00/VW505.01 or VW504.00/VW507.00, only 8 were M1 variations. The rest were semi-synthetic products!

Much the same deliniation applies to other Oil Companies products Listed - especially Castrol the "lead" supplier and engine/lubricant development Co. for the VW organisation