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Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 #1630856
10/13/09 10:14 PM
10/13/09 10:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 657
Oklahoma City
Bruce T Offline OP
Bruce T  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 657
Oklahoma City
Code:
		Honda	Red	RLI
		Genuine	Line	Bio-Syn
		0W20	0W20	0W20
WEAR METALS:				
Iron……………………….	1	2	1	
Copper………………..	0	0	0	
Tin………………….…….	6	8	0	
Lead……………………..	0	0	1	
Chromium…………….	0	0	0	
Nickel………………….	0	0	0	
Aluminum…………..	1	2	0	
Titanium…………….	0	0	0	
Silver………………..	0	0	0	

ADDITIVE METALS:				
Calcium….………….	1545	2213	1893	
Magnesium…….….	8	14	10
Zinc…..……………….	833	1565	1041
Phosphorous…….	831	1219	769
Barium……...………	4	2	0
Molybdenum……….	1065	1290	0
Antimony…………..	0	0	206

CONTAMINANT METALS:			
Silicon…………….…	3	33	1
Sodium……..…………	3	34	10
Boron……….………..	63	19	13
Potassium………….	0	0	0
Vanadium…………..	0	0	0

PHYSICAL AND OTHER:			
Viscosity 40°C	40.4	43.4	43.5
Viscosity 100°C	8.7	8.3	8.4
Viscosity Index	203	171	174
Flash(CCCFP)°F	410	395	410
TAN…………...…………	1.40	2.12	0.61
TBN……..……………..	5.2	6.8	6.3
Oxidation………….	16	158	152
Nitration……………	4	7	6
Water by KF…….	1226	1676	1553
Fuel……..…………..	0.07	0	0
Soot………..………..	0	0	0
Glycol……...…..	0.12	0	0
Sulfate byprod.	22	106	122



VOA is by Dyson Analysis. For premium kits, this is an ISO certified lab in TX. They only accept commercial customers, and they have an exclusive agreement with Terry.

Terry recommended RLI 0W20 for my application, a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid, without reservation. I had previously used Red Line 5W30 in my hot-running 1997 Camry V6 with a 5-spd manual. The Red Line 0W20 is fairly new to the market. RL and RLI are arguably the top two ester-based oils, hence this comparison. I was also curious about Honda 0W20, a Group III oil which exceeds GF-4/SM requirements (US version, Barcode 08798-9029).

As always, the contaminant and wear metals can be many things: correctly labeled, intentional additives, chemical reactions, false readings, etc. It’s tricky stuff to read. Similarly, additives have generated many arguments in the past. Which ones are good vs. bad for the engine? With the premium kit, Terry will discuss every element on his MP3. This is not meant to be a teaser, just saying that if you want to know, then hire the man.

Flash point is the Continuously Closed Cup Flash Point (CCCFP). This ASTM D6450 standard is newer than the D93 Pensky-Martens Closed Cup (PMCC). Yeah, I had to look this stuff up. Terry said to add 30-50° F to get the open cup (D92 Cleveland Open Cup - COC). There is no exact conversion factor between closed and open cup.

Notice the Red Line TAN is 2.12, but the RLI is lower at 0.61. I searched BITOG for past RLI VOAs, and the lowest was 1.3 for RLI 0W30 by johnbottilaw on 8/26/08. Something new and presumably good is happening here, but I have no idea what it is.

The Karl Fischer titration measures water in parts per million (ppm), so the oils show water readings between 0.1% and 0.2%. All three oils have water dilution? Not likely.

The Honda 0W20 looks impressive for the price, but base oils created from Group V esters still have advantages:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252272

JoeFromPA mentions that ester-based oils start with a TAN of 2-3, but rise slowly:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1486512&page=all

The issue of TAN in ester-based oils is discussed by saaber1 and Tom NJ here:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1583684&page=all

NOTE: I asked Terry about performing two additional tests: HTHS and CCS or MRV. He can source these tests, but his educated guess was at a cost of over $300 apiece. This is too rich for my blood, but they are still available for those with deep pockets. Cool specs to know.

Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Bruce T] #1630884
10/13/09 10:36 PM
10/13/09 10:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,396
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,396
PA
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?


2008 BMW M3
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: d00df00d] #1630910
10/13/09 11:00 PM
10/13/09 11:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
Steve S Offline
Steve S  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
What about the TBN?


Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Steve S] #1631170
10/14/09 07:56 AM
10/14/09 07:56 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#10 47272mi-QSUD10W30+5w20 Toughguard Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: ARCOgraphite] #1631700
10/14/09 03:17 PM
10/14/09 03:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 488
Theodore Al
elwaylite Offline
elwaylite  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 488
Theodore Al
Thanks Bruce!


07 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L/75k miles/Redline 0W20/Mobil Filter
09 Scion xB 2.4L/18k miles/Redline 0w20/Mobil Filter
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: ARCOgraphite] #1631888
10/14/09 06:01 PM
10/14/09 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
Steve S Offline
Steve S  Offline
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,449
East of IGO
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
TBN looks fine for low soot load pass car use. Recall the detergents are competitive with anti wear. Do you want a lot of scuffing or a little leaching at end of life?
Seems most of the [long life oils] have much higher TBN.


Why do people post I want the best for my car,,, When there isn't anything that is the best on the car to begin with.
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Steve S] #1632197
10/14/09 09:37 PM
10/14/09 09:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,877
Pacnw
saaber1 Offline
saaber1  Offline
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,877
Pacnw
Great data Bruce. Good job!!


"when 5W30 is cold, ...the oil is 35 weight (5+30),...20 w 50 starts at 70 and warms up to 50"
- Kyle, auto mechanic & VP Speedline Motorsports, INTL
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: d00df00d] #1653849
10/31/09 11:57 PM
10/31/09 11:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Is it just me or is 203 a REALLY high VI?

CCCFPs look impressive across the board.

What is sodium doing in the Red Line?


The Honda VI is excellent.
Apparently the oil is formulated by Idemitsu.

Toyota's house brand 0W-20 has an even higher VI of 214 (40C vis 39.3 cSt, 100C vis 8.8 cSt), at least those are the spec's for the Canadian product. It's also the cheapest 0W-20 oil in Canada at $4.50/L in a 12L case.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: CATERHAM] #1654161
11/01/09 11:26 AM
11/01/09 11:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
AZ
DieselTech Offline
DieselTech  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,969
AZ
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


03 Ford F250 7.3 (Lots of Mods). Redline & baldwin 7039
07 Ford F150 fill. Penz Ultra 5-20 & Bosch 3410
99 ford F150 4.6 fill. Redline 5-30 & P1
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: Bruce T] #1689454
11/30/09 11:42 AM
11/30/09 11:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
The factory spec's for the Honda 0W-20 taken from the MSDS are as follows:

40C vis 39.94 cSt
100C vis 8.52 cSt
VI 199
Flash Point 218C


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: DieselTech] #1689540
11/30/09 12:57 PM
11/30/09 12:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,831
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,831
NJ
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.

Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster] #1693283
12/02/09 11:12 PM
12/02/09 11:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: DieselTech
You gotta love those RL numbers. It's high dollor but you get what you pay for with it.


That's why I'm using it now.


If you're into numbers you've got to love the Honda (Idemitsu) oil.
It's VI is in a higher league than both RL and RLI.
That translates into a start-up vis that's much lighter while having a higher operating vis'; best of both worlds.

I changed out the 20wt RL in my Caterham with less than a 1000 miles on it in favor of Toyota's 0W-20 which has a VI even higher than Honda's and I'm delighted with it's performance.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: CATERHAM] #1770909
02/06/10 11:21 AM
02/06/10 11:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,831
NJ
buster Offline
buster  Offline
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 30,831
NJ
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.

Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster] #1770973
02/06/10 12:17 PM
02/06/10 12:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,769
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,769
NY
For about $75/case of 12 qts from both Honda and Toyota the price is in line or less than the boutique offerings in the same grade. On paper the Honda offering looks a little better. The UOA reports should be interesting if/when they start coming in.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20 [Re: buster] #1771842
02/07/10 02:52 AM
02/07/10 02:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: buster
Hopefully they are using good viscosity modifiers. I'm sure both the Honda & Toyota oils are very good. Both are made in Japan.


The Honda oil is made at the Idemitsu plant in Jeffersonville Indiana.

The Toyota oil is made at the Nippon Oil Lubricants (America) LLC plant in Childersburg Alabama.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
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