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PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145734 07/23/05 06:27 AM
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brianpavlovic Offline OP
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Can someone please clear this up for me! Which one is better? A PAO oil or an Ester based oil?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145735 07/23/05 06:55 AM
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bruce381 Offline
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depends, they both have drawbacks and are used in combination to balance out the best.

.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

other diferences but you get the idea.
bruce

[ July 23, 2005, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: bruce381 ]

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145736 07/23/05 07:14 AM
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forcedtalon Offline
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good question I also would like to know more

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145737 07/23/05 07:23 AM
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LarryL Offline
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...better for what?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145738 07/23/05 07:52 AM
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TallPaul Offline
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quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium

I thought ester had a higher viscosity index that PAO.

I think hydrolitic stability relates to the type of ester and may not be an issue with that used in motor oil.

Not sure what "low/high vis grades" means.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145739 07/23/05 09:12 AM
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Blue99 Offline
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quote:
.........................PAO....ESTER
Additive solubility......bad....good
VI.......................good...medium
Hydrolitic stability.....good...bad
low/high vis grades......good...medium
cost.....................low....high

Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

I think he is trying to provide a "25 words or less" answer to a complicated question.

I just re-read the "About Esters" page at the Hatco site and noted the Hatco comment that one drawback with esters is the attraction for water.

As far as VI index, the Cognis site lists multiple ester products in the 130-140 index range, which is same as PAO to my knowledge.

As Bruce indicates, PAO's get the nod based on available viscosity grades, as PAO's typically run 4-8-10-25-40 cSt and up to 150 cSt.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145740 07/23/05 12:14 PM
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mechtech Offline
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I never liked Esther...
Oh wait, I'm thinking of Sanford and Son!

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145741 07/23/05 03:59 PM
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TallPaul Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Blue99:
Bruce381 is providing us with insights based on his many years as a professional working with lubricant/oil formulations.

[Duh!] Of course. I should have viewed his profile. Anyway, thanks for elaborating on his points. Then Redline (for example) has treated their oil somehow to eliminate the water attraction issue, right?

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145742 07/23/05 05:05 PM
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TooSlick Offline
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The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145743 07/23/05 11:29 PM
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buster Offline
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quote:
However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

The percentage of POE RL uses is unknown, but speculated to be 65% or greater. Cost is the main issue why most don't more POE in their oils.

Redline claims 12-18k mile drains with their oils. Most RL oils show a TBN of 10. According to Terry, it's not always the higher TBN that counts, but the reserve it has left over "X" amount of miles. Terry has stated that even at 0, RL has alot of acid fighting reserve left. I wouldn't feel comfortable with having a TBN of 0, but I'm sure it's possible.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145744 07/24/05 12:41 AM
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HardCharger Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
The blended PAO/Ester basestocks have the best overall physical/chemical properties - and the take well to additive packages that are developed for conventional lubricants.

Note that the "Group III" synthetics simply replace the PAO portion of the basestock blend with the less expensive Group III, hydroisomerized oil. So these are more accurately called Group III/Ester blended base stocks.

Pure ester based synthetics more most useful to make synthetic two stroke lubricants, since the esters burn and exhaust even more cleanly than PAO's and the esters provide lubricity in the gas/oil mixtures....

Before the Redline guys have a cow, I should mention their excellent product. [Smile] It would be accurate to think of RL as a Polyol-ester/PAO product; containing > 50% PE (RL is very coy as to how much PE is in the basestock blend). The strong point of RL is high temp performance - particularly in a true racing application. However the RL lubes don't provide the cold temp performance, (or extended drain capability) of a very high TBN, PAO based lube like Amsoil or the GC/0w-30 or Mobil 1....

Tooslick

I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145745 07/24/05 12:54 AM
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forcedtalon Offline
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UOA is the only way to find out the condition of the oil most people just change it not knowing the conditions. No one OCI is right for everyone. It all depends on the aplication and driving habits. Someday we will have 50k OCI with how oil tech is going it just keeps gettting better.

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145746 07/24/05 01:03 AM
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Blue99 Offline
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quote:
I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.
Ahh, I believe this would be a Redline guy having a cow! [Big Grin]

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145747 07/24/05 01:19 AM
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boxcartommie22 Offline
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dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

Re: PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better? #145748 07/24/05 02:16 AM
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G-MAN Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
dave at red line the tbn of their oils is 7

[LOL!]

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