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#1310959 - 12/14/08 12:04 AM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: HayBusMan]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 34480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
My current valve springs are 500lbs open, I've got lots of pressure too ;\)

I simply have a hard time believing that M1 actually CAUSED any of that iron. But of course, I could be wrong......


Edited by OVERK1LL (12/14/08 12:05 AM)
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#1311507 - 12/14/08 04:20 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30315
Loc: NJ
Synpower should be GM 4718M cert. shortly too fwiw.

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#1311713 - 12/14/08 06:45 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: buster]
cheetahdriver Offline


Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 561
Loc: springdale, ar
M1 5w30 is GM4718M rated. this means that they have to pass SeqIVa at 90μm, and that has to be proven at a GM certified lab. i now would say that the claim of M1 not meeting API SM (also 90μm) is probably bunk.

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#1311729 - 12/14/08 06:55 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: cheetahdriver]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 34480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Some food for thought as to how Valvoline wants to take this.

Exxon Mobil's revenue for 2007 was 404.552 Billion
Exxon Mobil's NET income for 2007 was 40.610 Billion

Ashland's revenue for 2006 was 7.233 Billion
Ashland's NET income for 2006 was 170 Million


This is very much like Intel vs AMD. Intel will ALWAYS have the ability out-engineer AMD because they own so much more of the market and make so much more money.

Exxon Mobil could EASILY BUY Ashland. Going by the above figures, Exxon Mobil makes more money in ONE year than Ashland would make in 235 years.

This could turn into a Microsoft vs Netscape battle.

Who here uses Netscape (and no the open source fork of what was once the Netscape project that is now known as Mozilla doesn't count)?

Exactly........
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#1311733 - 12/14/08 06:57 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: HayBusMan]
Drew2000 Offline


Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 994
Loc: Long Island, NY
 Originally Posted By: HayBusMan
I believe there is validity in Valvoline's claim. I switched to Mobil 15W50 in my sport motorcycles. This was the tri-synthetic
formulation. The magnetic drain plugs were full of iron powder.
I tried the gold cap EP and the same wear was occuring. The oil did a fantastic job in cleaning up the engines though. (Castrol Syntec had left a varnish buildup which Mobil removed!). I believe the deposit control additives are competing with the AW, EP additives and are winning.


Almost all of the ferrous powder was probably from the transmission gears and the steel clutch plates. Most sport bike engines have hardened alloy cylinder bores and very little iron in the engine. I've had pretty good results with the M1 15w50.
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#1311818 - 12/14/08 08:29 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
LargeCarManX2 Offline


Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 2279
Loc: Up here in the NorthWest
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Some food for thought as to how Valvoline wants to take this.

Exxon Mobil's revenue for 2007 was 404.552 Billion
Exxon Mobil's NET income for 2007 was 40.610 Billion

Ashland's revenue for 2006 was 7.233 Billion
Ashland's NET income for 2006 was 170 Million


This is very much like Intel vs AMD. Intel will ALWAYS have the ability out-engineer AMD because they own so much more of the market and make so much more money.

Exxon Mobil could EASILY BUY Ashland. Going by the above figures, Exxon Mobil makes more money in ONE year than Ashland would make in 235 years.

This could turn into a Microsoft vs Netscape battle.

Who here uses Netscape (and no the open source fork of what was once the Netscape project that is now known as Mozilla doesn't count)?

Exactly........


TRUE, but Remember when little Pennzoil sued Texaco and jumped into the BigBoy world rather quickly? Maybe Johhny can elaborate on this...I just remember the suit from little David against Goliath!
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#1311842 - 12/14/08 09:02 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: kr_bitog]
HondaMan Offline


Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 671
Loc: Texas
Talk of XOM buying Ashland are foolish. Why? Ashland is not in the oil business. They are big in chemicals and chemical distribution, but Valvoline is just a brand name.

Given this, it is interesting to see the happenings in this thread.

Ashland may buy base oils from Marathon or even from XOM, who knows, maybe they buy from XOM and know something we all do not know.

To trust a blender or to trust a giant??????

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#1311869 - 12/14/08 09:28 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: HondaMan]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 34480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: HondaMan
Talk of XOM buying Ashland are foolish. Why? Ashland is not in the oil business. They are big in chemicals and chemical distribution, but Valvoline is just a brand name.

Given this, it is interesting to see the happenings in this thread.

Ashland may buy base oils from Marathon or even from XOM, who knows, maybe they buy from XOM and know something we all do not know.

To trust a blender or to trust a giant??????


And Exxon Mobil is NOT in the chemical and chemical distribution business? They are the largest in the world for both PAO's and Esters.

Ashland DOES buy base oils from Exxon Mobil.

That is why this is very much biting the hand that feeds you. Slamming one of your SUPPLIERS by making rather outrageous claims about YOUR product's performance using THEIR base oils???

Amsoil buys from Exxon Mobil too, but in their testing they almost always show Mobil 1 as a close 2nd.

Not "corporate letters" oozing potentially erroneous propaganda tarnishing Exxon Mobil's image by stating it fails certain tests it's already certified for!


Edited by OVERK1LL (12/14/08 09:28 PM)
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#1311895 - 12/14/08 09:48 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
rg200amp Offline


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3130
Loc: Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
 Originally Posted By: HondaMan
Talk of XOM buying Ashland are foolish. Why? Ashland is not in the oil business. They are big in chemicals and chemical distribution, but Valvoline is just a brand name.

Given this, it is interesting to see the happenings in this thread.

Ashland may buy base oils from Marathon or even from XOM, who knows, maybe they buy from XOM and know something we all do not know.

To trust a blender or to trust a giant??????


And Exxon Mobil is NOT in the chemical and chemical distribution business? They are the largest in the world for both PAO's and Esters.

Ashland DOES buy base oils from Exxon Mobil.

That is why this is very much biting the hand that feeds you. Slamming one of your SUPPLIERS by making rather outrageous claims about YOUR product's performance using THEIR base oils???

Amsoil buys from Exxon Mobil too, but in their testing they almost always show Mobil 1 as a close 2nd.

Not "corporate letters" oozing potentially erroneous propaganda tarnishing Exxon Mobil's image by stating it fails certain tests it's already certified for!


I agree, however:

Ashland would not make such statement(they can be sued for slander and more than likely close due to money needed to be paid out on the settlement or court order) unless they had *somekind of proof.

THat proof is what we need to find out. And see how factual it really is or is not.

If I started my own oil company in philadelphia, then marketed my oil showes 4x less wear than XOM and that XOM leading oil did not even meet the API SM spec, you bet your [censored] I would have a court sommons the next day!!!


I do not really think Ashlands statements are fully correct. But makeing those kind of claims, there putting there company on the line, so they shure believe it.
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#1311914 - 12/14/08 10:02 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: rg200amp]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 34480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Some more, from the Dec 13th issue:

http://www.jobbersworld.com/December%2013,%202008.htm

 Quote:
Additional Information on Valvoline's Challenge
In an effort to gather additional information on Valvoline's claim that "Mobil 1 5W-30 does not meet minimum API SM or ILSAC GF-4 specification because of its inferior performance in the Sequence IVA wear test," JobbersWorld contacted Thomas R. Smith at Valvoline. Smith is Technical Director of Valvoline Lubricants and the author of a letter Valvoline went public with on November 20, 2008 that challenges Mobil 's claims.

Click below to view Valvoline's letter and Q&A to its customers, which is reprinted with Valvoline's permission.

Note: The publishers of JobberWorld do not represent or endorse the accuracy of Valvoline's claims, statements, or position in either its letter or associated Q&A.



And the letter:



That's a VERY bold letter. I sure as [censored] hope he can substantiate what he's saying, or he's going to find out what it's like to grapple with a company that makes more in a year than his company will in almost two and a half centuries.......

It's kind of like flipping off somebody who's mentally unstable and happens to be holding an M82A1.....
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#1311929 - 12/14/08 10:09 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 34480
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I've contacted Exxon Mobil, linked them to the jobberworld article and this thread.

I'm interested to see what I hear back.
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#1311944 - 12/14/08 10:18 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
rg200amp Offline


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3130
Loc: Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Some more, from the Dec 13th issue:

http://www.jobbersworld.com/December%2013,%202008.htm

 Quote:
Additional Information on Valvoline's Challenge
In an effort to gather additional information on Valvoline's claim that "Mobil 1 5W-30 does not meet minimum API SM or ILSAC GF-4 specification because of its inferior performance in the Sequence IVA wear test," JobbersWorld contacted Thomas R. Smith at Valvoline. Smith is Technical Director of Valvoline Lubricants and the author of a letter Valvoline went public with on November 20, 2008 that challenges Mobil 's claims.

Click below to view Valvoline's letter and Q&A to its customers, which is reprinted with Valvoline's permission.

Note: The publishers of JobberWorld do not represent or endorse the accuracy of Valvoline's claims, statements, or position in either its letter or associated Q&A.



And the letter:



That's a VERY bold letter. I sure as [censored] hope he can substantiate what he's saying, or he's going to find out what it's like to grapple with a company that makes more in a year than his company will in almost two and a half centuries.......

It's kind of like flipping off somebody who's mentally unstable and happens to be holding an M82A1.....



YIEKS!!!!

Ashland has to be sitting on some kind of inside info/proof.
They really just put there WHOLE company(employees, Corp. officers, stock holders, bigwigs, ect. . .) on the chopping block. If XOM can disprove them, XOM will bankrupt and bury Ashland in court.

I just cant see Mobil 1 not meeting API specs. Either Valvoline is going to be cut from production due to the demise of Ashland, or XOM has has played all of its buyiers(includeing countless car makers who are useing it OEM) as fools.

I really cant wait to see how this plays out!!!!
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#1311945 - 12/14/08 10:19 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
rg200amp Offline


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 3130
Loc: Phila,PA
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I've contacted Exxon Mobil, linked them to the jobberworld article and this thread.

I'm interested to see what I hear back.


If they did not reply to Ashland directly yet, don't hold your breath!! lol
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#1311949 - 12/14/08 10:24 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: rg200amp]
buster Offline


Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 30315
Loc: NJ
I'm just interested in whether M1 passes the Seq IVA in order to meet API SM/ILSAC GF4.
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#1311962 - 12/14/08 10:35 PM Re: Valvoline vs Mobil 1 - Round 2 [Re: OVERKILL]
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1670
Loc: Arizona
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I've contacted Exxon Mobil, linked them to the jobberworld article and this thread.


Surely you don't think that XOM hasn't previously seen both the article and this thread?

The letter itself isn't particularly risky for Valvoline at all. They made contact with XOM first, and informed them that testing indicated that M1 did not meet SM/GF-4 requirements. That communication was neither public nor risky. At that point, Valvoline only publicly claimed that SynPower protected better than M1.

With no response from XOM after 2 months and in fact an off-point counterattack, Valvoline upped the ante by disclosing to a wider audience that testing at an independent lab showed failure to meet spec. There remains an invitation to XOM to provide information demonstrating that their product does actually meet spec. Still not risky, and still no on-point response from XOM. I'd say that XOM is messing their pants. I just don't know whether it's because they screwed up or because they got caught.
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