The Problem w/Fuel Dilution is not Viscosity Drop

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Many people keep mentioning that fuel dilution is a problem because it decreases viscosity. It takes 4 - 6 % fuel dilution to drop the viscosity one grade on the average. It (viscosity) is not the problem with fuel dilution. Here are some references:

From Donald J. Smolenski and Shirley E. Schwartz; Automotive engine-oil condition monitoring, (Both former General Motors Tribologists/engineers) contribution to CRC Handbook of Lubrication and Tribology:

Excessive unburned fuel in the oil may reduce oil viscosity so that it no longer provides adequate oil-film thickness in critical areas of the engine. However, much of the fuel may be eliminated when the engine oil reaches stabilized operating temperatures for a long enough time period. Higher temperatures require less time.

Furthermore, the heavier ends of the fuel, which remain after lighter ends are boiled off, have less tendency to reduce viscosity of the engine oil. Fuel in the oil contributes significantly to the loss of the oxidative stability of the oil.

Partially oxidized fuel components, arising during short trip service, can also be condensed in the engine oil and can cause and increase in TAN and a decrease in TBN. These are adverse effects by many ways. This effect can sometimes be diminished at higher oil temps.

Directly from Terry:

Here are some additional areas of complexity to the simple fuel dilution of motor oil issues I am working on at present: Add in ethanol or other sources of enriched fuels that provide tremendous solvency with little if any lubricity.

Most critically important is the severe ECU modifications to compensate for CATALYTIC CONVERTER light off and efficiency for emissions limits, then if any of the fine tuned modern engine is not functioning properly you WILL have higher fuels dilution effects.

Dyson Analysis in most gasoline powered engines targets 0.5% fuels to optimize.

Note too that aromatics can source from the motor oil itself, additive packages and lower quality base oils, contamination, and faulty tune or mechanical performance of the engine. Even more problematic: new hydraulic controlled injection, VVT systems linked in with ECU, OBD, cylinder de-activation, and finally hydrid drive systems add even more stress to the most critical component in the modern engine, the lubricant !

You can see there are no easy answers.

Its not just oil analysis, its Dyson Analysis !

aehaas
 
So maybe it should read "The Problem w/Fuel Dilution is not *only* Viscosity Drop".
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
So maybe it should read "The Problem w/Fuel Dilution is not *only* Viscosity Drop".


True but it seems that most people think that viscosity drop is the issue with fuel dilution and the only problem. I have seen very few issues from the minimal viscosity drop, if any, seen on UOA on this site.

A good reference is here:
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/test_results.htm
where 4 - 5 % fuel dilution shows a drop of 1 grade in viscosity. We need to be aware that a small fuel percent in itself is detrimental in Many was to motor oil performance and that an oil that can tolerate some fuel is something that BITOGers should be looking for.

aehaas
 
This statement:

"Excessive unburned fuel in the oil may reduce oil viscosity so that it no longer provides adequate oil-film thickness in critical areas of the engine."

is exactly why UOA's are important, furthermore....short vs. long trips burning off fuel in the oil does make a difference with OCI's.

I find it interesting to also note that ethanol fuel mixtures render or affect lubricity. We are now seeing this with 2 stroke applications that mix gas/ethanol fuel with oil. Some early signs that the ethanol is messing with the host/mix oil.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
No, I think the title is correct.


So what is it?

Fuel Dilution does not cause viscosity drop.

or

Viscosity drop is not a problem.
 
Well, viscosity drop is just but one issue when too much gas is in the oil. The other is wear. Some oils control wear better when fuel is present.
 
Well someone ought to tell VW this. They keep recommending 40wt oils in their gas engines. I dont know why their 2.5 gas engine requires 5w40 when my japanese 3.0 comes with 5w20 recommendation.
 
I refer you to an earlier post:

Oil analysis for 2003 Ferrari 575 Maranello:

The Ferrari was delivered with Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30. At 775 miles on 23 May 2003 the oil was changed to 0W-30 Mobil 1. At 2,250 miles on 14 November 2003 the oil was changed to 0W-20 Mobil 1. With 5,300 miles on the car, and 3,000 mile on this fill of 0W-20 I sent in a sample for analysis. The original oil tested was from a left over bottle from the original Mobil 1 oil cases. So it is of the same age as the oil in the engine. No additional oil was added to the car. The next sample of the same oil was at 4,000 miles on Mar 19, ‘05.

__________New __________Ferrari_______
______0W-20 Mobil 1 ___With 3,000 Mi __With 4,000 Mi on the same oil
................................................................................................................
Iron__________ Chromium _____ Nickel ________ Aluminum ______3__________10___________9
lead __________ Copper ________ Tin ___________ Silver ________ Titanium ______ Silicon ________4___________10__________8
Boron ________247_________220_________178
Sodium _______15__________15__________15
Potassium ____ Molybdenum __ 164_________141_________86
Phosphorus __1375________ 1353________1243
Zinc ________ 1328________1313________1169
Calcium _____ 3456________3143________2742
Barium ______ Magnesium ____53_________154_________111
Antimony _____ Vanadium _____ Fuel %Vol _____0__________3.5__________1.0
Abs Oxid ______?__________48__________28
Abs Nitr _______?__________13__________4
Wtr %vol ______0_________ Vis CS 100C ___9.0________8.1 _________8.3
SAE Grade ____20_________20 __________20
Gly test ______NEG_______NEG _________NEG
TBN _________9.87_______not done_____not done


What happened between 3 and 4 thousand miles on the same oil is that I went on a 2 hour highway trip to help burn off fuel. Note the fuel dilution went from 3.5 to 1.0 percent. The viscosity change was 0.2.

aehaas

Edit: The OEM recommended oil is Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 (even though the oil on delivery new is 5W-30).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
So maybe it should read "The Problem w/Fuel Dilution is not *only* Viscosity Drop".


True but it seems that most people think that viscosity drop is the issue with fuel dilution and the only problem. I have seen very few issues from the minimal viscosity drop, if any, seen on UOA on this site.

A good reference is here:
http://members.rennlist.com/oil/test_results.htm
where 4 - 5 % fuel dilution shows a drop of 1 grade in viscosity. We need to be aware that a small fuel percent in itself is detrimental in Many was to motor oil performance and that an oil that can tolerate some fuel is something that BITOGers should be looking for.

aehaas



I completely understand what you're saying. Just pointing out that under exreme conditions it can cause signifigant viscosity drop.

A car running correctly may never see >2% but I've seen people install the wrong chip for the wrong injectors and wipe the rings, cylinders, and cam and lifters in less than 50 miles. Of course it's not normal and if a UOA were done it would probably be 20% or more.
 
"Hey Doc OT but, can you post pics of your fleet again? "
garage.jpg


inside.jpg

enzoowner.jpg


I love cars...

Most are running on olive oil now (RLI).

aehaas
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
So what is it?

Fuel Dilution does not cause viscosity drop.

or

Viscosity drop is not a problem.


For the context in which nearly everyone on BITOG operates, the latter, because they're already experiencing it. When their just-barely-30-grade oil shears to a high 20, there is no negative impact. When they experience almost zero additional viscosity reduction from the fuel dilution, there remains no negative impact.

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I completely understand what you're saying. Just pointing out that under exreme conditions it can cause signifigant viscosity drop.

A car running correctly may never see >2% but I've seen people install the wrong chip for the wrong injectors and wipe the rings, cylinders, and cam and lifters in less than 50 miles. Of course it's not normal and if a UOA were done it would probably be 20% or more.


Your experience is a good illustration of how the viscosity reduction itself does not cause an issue. The problem you describe above is not a viscosity problem, it's a problem of the solvent nature of the fuel removing the lubricant, regardless of what the viscosity of that lubricant was before it was removed by the fuel.

Clearly, there can be a 'just right' combination of factors, including engine (cam/lifter) design, that lead to enough fuel getting into the oil to cause excessive wear on the cams & lifters without there being the solvent 'washing' of all metal parts. It's just a very low-frequency set of circumstances.
 
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
"Hey Doc OT but, can you post pics of your fleet again? "
garage.jpg


inside.jpg

enzoowner.jpg


I love cars...

Most are running on olive oil now (RLI).

aehaas


I spy a lift in that garage. I want one soooooooooooo bad!!!!!!!
 
Gorgeous cars.

How are you liking the RLI oil?

Terry seems quite fond of it. I've seen the Ethanol car run a number of times.........
 
No long term results yet on the RLI, it may be a while yet.

I love the wood in the Bentley GTC. It is olive wood, really, first time in a car.

aehaas
 
maybach looks sweet. btw, have you checked out a maserati quattroporte? or their coupe? or an aston martin?
I dream of having a merc or bmw or jaguar some day.. and I am not talking about their base models.
 
Originally Posted By: AEHaas
No long term results yet on the RLI, it may be a while yet.

I love the wood in the Bentley GTC. It is olive wood, really, first time in a car.

aehaas


I find it a fascinating product. But I have zero experience with it.

It sounds quite promising....... And seems to excel where other products don't fare as well....


I love your Murcielago
wink.gif
 
A number of my neighbors have had several of the Aston Martin models and they are all sweat. I am intimately involved with all the Maserati vehicles. They are also worth having.
 
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