ACEA vs. ILSAC vs API Ratings

[momomeister]

I'm just trying to get an understanding of the oil standards.

Castrol says it's 0w-30:
1) Exceeds European ACEA: A3, B3, B4
2) Exceeds the engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF–3 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils

Yet, it doesn't list the API SM standard (latest for API) as being met. But it meets the ACEA A3, which if I'm not mistaken is a recent standard from Europe.

So, is there a direct correlation between the 3 standards?

 

[MGregoir]

ILSAC GF-4 is as much concerned about emission system protection and fuel economy as engine protection.

The 20 and 30 weight API oils fall under ILSAC, unless they are rated their C rating first, so CJ-4, CI-4+, etc.

It's probably 1000 ppm ZDDP instead of 800, and does not pass the fuel economy tests to be ILSAC GF-4.

 

[TeeDub]

The Syntec is a bit too thick to meet the fuel efficiency specs of GF-4. A thinner ACEA, A5/B5 rated oil (like the Amsoil 0w-30/SSO), would meet both specs.

The Syntec has < 800 ppm of P, so of does meet the SM/GF-4 chemical limits.

 

[momomeister]

So are we saying there is no direct correlation between the 3 standards?

 

[momomeister]

Originally Posted By: TeeDub
The Syntec is a bit too thick to meet the fuel efficiency specs of GF-4. A thinner ACEA, A5/B5 rated oil (like the Amsoil 0w-30/SSO), would meet both specs.

The Syntec has < 800 ppm of P, so of does meet the SM/GF-4 chemical limits.


So you're saying the newer A5 spec is more for fuel economy and nothing else?

 

[momomeister]

Anybody?

 

[TallPaul]

I think the ACEA standards have been around for a while. I haven't been keeping up with all this but my impression is that if an oil meets ACEA A3 then I would use it without reservation, provided it is a viscosity allowed for my engine. In general I doubt any oil below 30 weight will meet ACEA A3 and then it would be a synthetic as a dino needs 40 wt to meet the HTHS reqmt of ACEA A3. Not sure a 20 wt can ever meet ACEA A3, unless an ester oil perhaps Redline 5w20.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
ACEA A3 was promulgated during 1995 for release in 1996. It was one of ACEA's initial standards and has been only slightly modified since 1996. ACEA got it right!

IMHO so did TallPaul!

 

[Brian Barnhart]

ACEA’s document describes the general differences fairly well. A3/B3 is a stable stay-in-grade oil with a HTHS viscosity of greater than 3.5 mPa . A5/B5 is a stable stay-in-grade oil with a HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa. A1/B1 are oils eith a HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 (2.6 to 3.5 for 20wt). 30wt and 40wt A1/B1 oils are also permitted to shear out of grade. The document also notes that A1/B1 and A5/B5 oils are low friction oils and warns that they may not be suitable for use in some engines.

Typically, the A1/B1 and A5/B5 oils sold in the US also meet the API starburst (energy conserving) requirements, and are suitable for most vehicles sold in the US, with European designed vehicles accounting for many of the exceptions. The A3/B3 oils are suitable for many of the "excepted" vehicles. However, just as US manufacturers have their own oil requirements beyond the API specs, many European manufacturers have their own oil specs in addition to the ACEA specs.

I like the fact that the ACEA attempts to provide a way to distinguish between oils, rather than the API two sizes supposedly fit all approach (starburst or non-starburst) for PCMOs.

 

[momomeister]

I ask because my VQ35 recommends 5w-30, API SM rated.. I bought 7 cases of the GC 0w-30.

Frankly, I don't expect problems but am trying to understand how the standards met by the GC rate when compared to the SM API rating, hence my question as to whether there is a correlation between the 3 different standards..

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I think the ACEA standards have been around for a while. I haven't been keeping up with all this but my impression is that if an oil meets ACEA A3 then I would use it without reservation, provided it is a viscosity allowed for my engine. In general I doubt any oil below 30 weight will meet ACEA A3 and then it would be a synthetic as a dino needs 40 wt to meet the HTHS reqmt of ACEA A3. Not sure a 20 wt can ever meet ACEA A3, unless an ester oil perhaps Redline 5w20.


Do you know of nay mobil products in xW-30 that meet A3?

Does Toyota's relly care or reliase the difference between A1 or A3? WOuld an A3 oil be better for my camry even if it was an xW-40?
(I'm not too worried about fuel economy, but more about wear and cleanliness)

 

[gtx510]

Originally Posted By: momomeister
I ask because my VQ35 recommends 5w-30, API SM rated.. I bought 7 cases of the GC 0w-30.

Frankly, I don't expect problems but am trying to understand how the standards met by the GC rate when compared to the SM API rating, hence my question as to whether there is a correlation between the 3 different standards..
VQ guys seem to like GC over a regular 30wt, I think some guys even use M1 0W-40.
Here's a link to a VQ oil write-up.
http://www.streetunitforum.com/showthread.php?t=3694
http://www.my350z.com/forum/engine-drivetrain/258663-vq-oil-analysis-info.html 31 page thread!!
http://auto.badtziscool.com/informational/oil-analysis-and-information/ easier to read here

http://www.infineum.com/information/tables.html some API/ACEA info

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: crinkles
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I think the ACEA standards have been around for a while. I haven't been keeping up with all this but my impression is that if an oil meets ACEA A3 then I would use it without reservation, provided it is a viscosity allowed for my engine. In general I doubt any oil below 30 weight will meet ACEA A3 and then it would be a synthetic as a dino needs 40 wt to meet the HTHS reqmt of ACEA A3. Not sure a 20 wt can ever meet ACEA A3, unless an ester oil perhaps Redline 5w20.


Do you know of nay mobil products in xW-30 that meet A3?

Does Toyota's relly care or reliase the difference between A1 or A3? WOuld an A3 oil be better for my camry even if it was an xW-40?
(I'm not too worried about fuel economy, but more about wear and cleanliness)
I am not familiar with Mobil products. I suggest you go with Amsoil if you want synthetic. Ask one of our fine site sponsor Amsoil dealers. They will give you the straight truth. You can get a nice PAO Amsoil and they will tell you which grades are ACEA A3 (presumably some are), or if not rated, they should be just as good if you get the HTHS.

Don't know if Toyotas really care/know difference, but the A3 is more robust. As for weight, don't go 40 weight unless your manual allows it. If you have an oil pressure gauge that really shows actual pressure (not dummy needle that never moves with rpm), then stick with 30 weight if sufficent pressure. There is a spec pressure, whcih I don't know for Toys, but for my Fords it's usually 40-60 psi at 2000 rpm hot.

 

[cheetahdriver]

i am currently running M1 0w-40 in my VK45DE (FX45). the M1 0w-40 runs to the lower side of the -40 spec (14@100C with the J300 spec being 12.5-16.3). should have an OA on it in another couple of weeks. the 0w-30 GC should work just fine, i have thought of changing over to it, but don't have a good source.

i went to the M1 0w-40 instead of the 0w-30 because of the better specs on the -40. my current OA will be on ~13k OCI because of a short notice 5k trip i had to go on. i see no advantage to the amsoil over the M1 product, and there is significant pricing advantage to the M1.

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver
... and there is significant pricing advantage to the M1.
True, but I believe with the Site-sponsor Amsoil Reps, we have a significant information advantage with the Amsoil.

 

[cheetahdriver]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Originally Posted By: cheetahdriver
... and there is significant pricing advantage to the M1.
True, but I believe with the Site-sponsor Amsoil Reps, we have a significant information advantage with the Amsoil.


it depends on how much value you put on having more info. for my own part, i will go with the OA numbers (but engineers tend to be number driven).

exactly what info about mobil do you not have that you want (that is of any value, i deem the PAO controversy as valueless, when M1 keeps coming back with good numbers)?

 

[TallPaul]

True, M1 gives good numbers, but some will have a nice feeling to know for sure they have PAO. Info from Mobil is going to be limited as per big corporations, somewhat Amsoil too, but the site reps seem to have a lot of good info that is hard to get from mainline oil companies.

 

[gtx510]

What basegroups are used in M1????

Compared to Pennzoil Plat (and Amsoil) wasn't M1 (5W-30?) giving higher wear numbers in UOA's?

 

[cheetahdriver]

what basegroups are used in amsoil? something from the COMPANY, not from the associates, please.

5w-30 wear? not really sure. here were the numbers i got on a quick survey. i cherry picked, (ie, no modified cars, no cars with problems and i threw out everything over 100k). 3 samples each

Fe
pp avg 1.733/1000 miles
M1 avg 1.540/1000 miles
Am avg 2.181/1000 miles


not sure 3 samples of each oil make a statistical sample, and i think one of the amsoils may have been dino (what is XL?) if you throw that one out, and add the next one in the list, amsoil comes out at 1.52.

 

[gogozy]

Originally Posted By: crinkles
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I think the ACEA standards have been around for a while. I haven't been keeping up with all this but my impression is that if an oil meets ACEA A3 then I would use it without reservation, provided it is a viscosity allowed for my engine. In general I doubt any oil below 30 weight will meet ACEA A3 and then it would be a synthetic as a dino needs 40 wt to meet the HTHS reqmt of ACEA A3. Not sure a 20 wt can ever meet ACEA A3, unless an ester oil perhaps Redline 5w20.


Do you know of nay mobil products in xW-30 that meet A3?


MaxLife 5w-30 full syn is A3 and GF4 SM rated.