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Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: pickled] #1169257 06/09/08 09:22 PM
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Steve S Offline
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 Originally Posted By: pickled
Group IV will be your friend.
The gp4 max temps aren't that much higher

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: Steve S] #1169280 06/09/08 10:05 PM
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pickled Offline
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And the rate of degradation at lower than max temps??


Used gear lube and burnt ATF is all the cologne a real man will ever need!
Too many toys and automotive parts to list...
Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: Steve S] #1169376 06/10/08 04:55 AM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Steve S
I would guess too much gear or foot into the pedal 1500 is hot.



While 1500*F is hot, it is the indicated sustainable EGT stated by Cummins. And again, I was only holding around 1000*EGT during this trip. And its not like this truck is unique...I am one of a handful (in the realm of the total number of trucks on the road) that would actually have guages to know what EGTs are. I would assume others would see the same conditions, for a lot more miles, when towing their large RVs...

The truck is set up with 4.10s, I typically cruise 55mph...conditions Saturday dictated a sustained 80mph was required.

My problem is where the oil is picking up the heat, as there is is only a small portion of oil being pushed through the turbo. I would assume the heat might be happening in the head? That's the only place I could see that much heat, and a significant amount of oil, interacting.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: deeter16317] #1169680 06/10/08 02:14 PM
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Steve S Offline
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As the load on an engine increases the heat also increases. The heat comes from the pistons that have oil sprayed on the bottom to take away some of the heat There is more heat in the head from the valves which are partially cooled by oil and with more load every thing has more heat that the oil touches . Doug H would be considered master in these situations.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: Steve S] #1169682 06/10/08 02:22 PM
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lazaro Offline
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buy better oil plenty of options.
rotella isn't the best available only the most popular.
I used to have those same issues, glad that isnt a issue anymore.
good luck with your choice

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: lazaro] #1169684 06/10/08 02:25 PM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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I wouldn't say it is garbage either...for what it is, I typically see UOAs that meet/exceed that of synthetics. And even though it "changes", the UOAs still show minimal wear metals.

That's the main reason I never changed to synthetics to begin with, UOAs didn't show it was needed.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: deeter16317] #1169773 06/10/08 05:05 PM
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D-Roc Offline
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 Originally Posted By: deeter16317
I wouldn't say it is garbage either...for what it is, I typically see UOAs that meet/exceed that of synthetics. And even though it "changes", the UOAs still show minimal wear metals.

That's the main reason I never changed to synthetics to begin with, UOAs didn't show it was needed.


Agreed...except in wintertime up here in Edmonton where syn is an advantage in cold temps.

Last edited by D-Roc; 06/10/08 05:18 PM.
Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: D-Roc] #1169778 06/10/08 05:12 PM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: D-Roc

Agreed, except with my Pinto which I drag occasionally...need the absolute best.




Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: deeter16317] #1169978 06/10/08 10:32 PM
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Doug Hillary Offline
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Hi,
IMHE it is how the lubricant reacts to a number of things that determines its longevity in a certain task and engine family

For instance do you know what the bulk oil temperature is? This is a critical area to investigate as oil cooling may be inadequate for the task set
What were you cruise engine revs? What is the HP and Torque of the engine and at what revs and etc

There is no doubt in my mind that in on-road diesel engines, synthetics generally perform much better than mineral lubricants. This is not only at the upper and lower temperature levels it is also in the way in which the handle soot and in the way they tolerate shear (maintaining viscosity for long periods for example) and maintain "condition"

And not all synthetic HDEOs are built equal either!

My engines held Pyro readings of 1500f for long periods climbing and ran around <1000f in normal use. My synthetic lubricant maintained viscosity for 100k kms (62k miles) and the average oil temperature was around 100C (<215f) with highs of 110C

You can PM me if you wish

Last edited by Doug Hillary; 06/10/08 10:33 PM.

Regards
Doug
Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: Doug Hillary] #1170018 06/11/08 02:08 AM
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allan5oh Offline
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I'm going to go at a bit of a tangent.

I think the cj-4 rotella holds soot a lot better then previous oils. What I think happened is the cj-4 rotella "cleaned out" your engine.

Soot = heat

Change the oil, I'll bet it won't happen again.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: allan5oh] #1170026 06/11/08 03:11 AM
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dnewton3 Offline
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allan5oh might be onto something here.

The CJ-4 spec is certainly geared towards today's newer exhaust controlled, DPF type vehicles. I know from reading on the Rotella, Delo and Delvac pages that the products are aimed squarely at controlling soot better than previous generations.

It's possible that these new formulations are going "look" different visually, because they're now picking up soot in quantities that previously had been allowed to drop out. Now, they are holding it in suspension better, and therefore the appearance of the oil is going to be different.

Further, after the trip, if you continued use of the same oil, would the GC bypass filter eventually clean the soot from the oil? Since there is likely more in suspension, it might take longer to get it back to some state that you visually recongnize.

Let's also remember that since CJ-4 was primarily biased towards the emmisions-control aspect of oil, that other characteristics were only slightly changed, even if not by intent. I.E. - the lubricating properties and emmision control properties of CJ-4 over CI-4+ have been touted by all the major companies. But heat control wasn't part of the EPA mandate, and therefore there's no reason to think that the characteristics of heat tolerance have changed much, if any.

It makes sense to me that, while you're attributing the visual changes of the oil to a percieved increase in heat, it's more likely that increased capability of soot suspension is the real cause of the changes you see.


The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money
Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: lazaro] #1170092 06/11/08 06:24 AM
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Jim Allen Offline
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EGT is an indicator of engine heat but do you know the oil was actually overheated. The cummins have an oil cooler, a large volume of oil and a good cooling system. I don't think 1000 EGT (I assume pre-turbo???) is enough to fry the oil lubricating the turbo when it's coming in a large volume. If it were me, I would get an oil temp gauge set up and see that part of the equation.


Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: Doug Hillary] #1170170 06/11/08 08:18 AM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
IMHE it is how the lubricant reacts to a number of things that determines its longevity in a certain task and engine family

For instance do you know what the bulk oil temperature is? This is a critical area to investigate as oil cooling may be inadequate for the task set
What were you cruise engine revs? What is the HP and Torque of the engine and at what revs and etc

There is no doubt in my mind that in on-road diesel engines, synthetics generally perform much better than mineral lubricants. This is not only at the upper and lower temperature levels it is also in the way in which the handle soot and in the way they tolerate shear (maintaining viscosity for long periods for example) and maintain "condition"

And not all synthetic HDEOs are built equal either!

My engines held Pyro readings of 1500f for long periods climbing and ran around <1000f in normal use. My synthetic lubricant maintained viscosity for 100k kms (62k miles) and the average oil temperature was around 100C (<215f) with highs of 110C

You can PM me if you wish



The oil temp is unknown, but the 5.9L Cummins has an oil cooler (oil to water) built in...unlike a gasser with no external cooling. So it should not exceed engine coolant temperatures by much.

The cruise RPMs in that 100 mile stretch were around 3k RPM...I redline against the governor at 96mph/3200RPM. Again, bucking a decent headwind, gearing, and speed were my enemies...

The engine is a 325HP/600TQ version, the only mods are 40HP injectors, a FASS, slight timing advance, modified airbox, and straight 4" exhaust (no cat). There is no programmer/chip...it is more less stock except the injectors.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: allan5oh] #1170175 06/11/08 08:23 AM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: allan5oh
I'm going to go at a bit of a tangent.

I think the cj-4 rotella holds soot a lot better then previous oils. What I think happened is the cj-4 rotella "cleaned out" your engine.

Soot = heat

Change the oil, I'll bet it won't happen again.



I've been running CJ-4 for almost 100k. Besides, this is the second time it has happened...and I did change the oil to get it out of the engine. Now I'm back to that point (in one single 100 mile run).

Besides, any appreciable soot in this engine would theoretically be removed by the GCF (this is a true 0-1, not the little frantz-like version)...I've had bypass filtration since around 60k...currently have 157k. I've also had the valve cover off this engine, there isn't enough "dirt" to even wipe off with your finger on the inside, all parts are clean.

Re: Rotella CJ-4 might not be holding up... [Re: dnewton3] #1170184 06/11/08 08:32 AM
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deeter16317 Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: dnewton3
allan5oh might be onto something here.

The CJ-4 spec is certainly geared towards today's newer exhaust controlled, DPF type vehicles. I know from reading on the Rotella, Delo and Delvac pages that the products are aimed squarely at controlling soot better than previous generations.

It's possible that these new formulations are going "look" different visually, because they're now picking up soot in quantities that previously had been allowed to drop out. Now, they are holding it in suspension better, and therefore the appearance of the oil is going to be different.

Further, after the trip, if you continued use of the same oil, would the GC bypass filter eventually clean the soot from the oil? Since there is likely more in suspension, it might take longer to get it back to some state that you visually recongnize.

Let's also remember that since CJ-4 was primarily biased towards the emmisions-control aspect of oil, that other characteristics were only slightly changed, even if not by intent. I.E. - the lubricating properties and emmision control properties of CJ-4 over CI-4+ have been touted by all the major companies. But heat control wasn't part of the EPA mandate, and therefore there's no reason to think that the characteristics of heat tolerance have changed much, if any.

It makes sense to me that, while you're attributing the visual changes of the oil to a percieved increase in heat, it's more likely that increased capability of soot suspension is the real cause of the changes you see.



While you are correct about the oils characteristics with regards to soot handling, even my GCF will not bring the oil "back to life" after this perceived "damage".

And to add, the viscosity increased (in the previous sample) while insolubles remained the same as always (0.3%). Neither time it has happened has the GCF been able to bring the oil back.

I do not think soot is my problem...if it was, my oil should be fine right now as that 100 mile run was over 1500 miles ago...the oil has not improved. And if it was soot, then I should have seen a significant spike in the insolubles in the UOA that also had increased viscosity, right?

I'm only perceiving what causes it to change...higher RPM, higher than normal load, higher EGTs. I am not pointing at one single thing, but I feel of the things that could damage oil in a Cummins, heat is probably the most likely suspect in my case...

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