GM debunks ZDDP myths for flat tappet cams

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OK, first off, yea, i'm sceptical too but this came from a reputable source and is claimed to be a customer service bulletin put out by GM to address some oil "myths". Give it a read and see what you think.

Mark


Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
 
New to me. I've not seen this before. Thanks for posting it.

I'm getting old Pablo and I can't remember what happened yesterday, much less what was posted awhile back.
 
No problem....didn't mean to be rude, and I can't expect people to use a barely functional search tool. Especially old guys
LOL.gif
sorry.... I dunno, I forgot how the conversation went the last times it was posted, anyway.
 
If this is true, then I guess we know why GM dropped EOS... but the latest word is that GM has a new part number for EOS and it will be available in the second quarter of 2008. From 1977c10phxdriver's post, there is no need for additional Zn and P, in the form of ZDDP, in modern engine oils... Absouletly not correct.
 
I found this reply posted by RCX to the same GM TechLink article over on TurboBuicks.com. This thread was started when Pacos87GN posted Bob Olree’s Article from the Dec. 2007 GM Techlink publication for GM dealers and technicians titled: “Engine Oil Myths”.:



"We at AMI may not be lubrication engineers or tribologists, but we are engineers, and know how to read and interpret test reports. We have nothing but respect for Mr. Olree, indeed he is one of the most experienced engine lubrication engineers we have read, but we feel that his opinions leave some issues important to older classic and high-performance vehicle owners unanswered. To address them point by point:



”Engine Oil Myths -
Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.
The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.
Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."”


It is human nature to be unsure about new technology. We agree that the situations vis-à-vis Pennsylvania Crude oil and detergent oil is adequately explained by this aspect of human nature. The working fundamentals of many modern technologies such as engine oils are far beyond the grasp of an average person. When reading Bob Olree’s comments, we also acknowledge that they are applicable to an average vehicle and engine. There are few people who have as much direct experience with the issue of ZDDP and API test Sequences as he has.

However, to describe the current situation where oils are being marketed with lower ZDDP than a vehicle’s original specified requirement as merely another “new or unknown = bad” myth does not do the facts of the situation justice.

There are no test reports we know of which conclude that any low ZDDP oil is compatible with older, high spring pressure flat-tappet high-performance engines.

There is on the other hand, research that concludes that the minimum ZDDP requirement is directly related to the lifter foot pressure. In one SAE paper it is reported that: “at a ZDP level corresponding to 0.02% phosphorus, scuffing occurred at 200 pounds lifter load, while it required 240 and 480 pounds lifter load for oils containing 0.04 and 0.06% phosphorus, respectively, to initiate scuffing. At 0.08% phosphorus concentration, no scuffing occurred up to 600 pounds lifter load, the test hardware limit. Scuffing occurred at 350 pounds lifter load with no ZDP (0% phosphorus).”

The older engines and high-performance engines we are concerned about may have lifter foot pressures several times that of a low-performance engine such as those used in the Sequence III tests, and their wear characteristics are not predicted by common Sequence III testing methodology. An additional factor is the dynamic load at the lifter foot. Sequence III engines run at 3600 RPM maximum during the test. Most high-performance TR engines are regularly run to 6000 RPM. The inertial contribution to the lifter foot pressure increases as the square of the increase in RPM. This means that the inertial load at 6000 RPM is 2.67 times it’s value at 3600 RPM.


“The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.“

One of our engineers drives 1996 Chevrolet Impala SS with an LT1 engine which was filled at the factory with Mobil 1, and has never had any other oil in it. One might wonder if the Mobil 1 factory fill is actually the same spec as off the shelf product or if it is initially dosed with a break-in additive. It has indeed broken in well, and at over 200,000 miles it still has very little blow-by, so I would agree with Mr. Olree’s conclusion, for his Impala SS at least. Engine break-in problems are usually caused by improper break-in driving habits, not by the difference between synthetic or fossil based oil.



”The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).
Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942. In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range. However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.
Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.
The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.


We have never been able to find the results of these tests on older engines. We would need to study those reports to see exactly which engine types and cam/follower types were involved. The fact is that all API test sequences we have studied use non-performance engines with low spring pressures, indeed in the Sequence IIIG test, the static lifter load is 350 pounds . Many high-performance engines have as much as 500 pounds or more of lifter foot pressure. Referring to the Bennet data, this would indicate that in order to keep from scuffing, a ZDP level giving a .065 % minimum phosphorus level would need to be ensured. If one considers that fact that the ZDDP level constantly drops from the initial level as a vehicle is driven, a safety margin above that is advisable. This means that if one wishes to maintain .065% minimum phosphorus, more than that must be present in the initial fill. Our calculations estimate that if you start with a ZDDP level which gives .14% phosphorus, after 2000-3000 miles, the actual ZDDP remaining active has dropped to the point where there is just enough protection.


"The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.
- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.
- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.
Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)"


We wish that it were true that all modern oils contained 0.08% ZDP. Our recent tests of two major name brand oils bearing the SM API grade showed that they contain We know that there are technologies other than ZDDP which can function as effective EP anti-wear agents for some engine designs, as proven with newer engines with roller cam followers. The most recent SM formulations in particular have shown a move to Boron based EP additives. We have been testing virgin oils on an ongoing basis, and most quality oils in early 2007 have had a phosphorus level in the 0.05% to 0.08% range, lower on average than that of the SL oils. This certainly shows a downward trend which the classic or high-performance car owner needs to be aware of.


”Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.“


I do not believe that anyone who has spent time investigating this situation would say that the new oils had insufficient EP characteristics for ALL flat tappet engines, especially low-performance engines. As a matter of fact, the number of oils with API certification proves that low-performance flat-tappet engines can pass the Sequence III tests with acceptable wear. Our study of the ASTM test sequences IIIE, IIIF, IIIG, IVA and VE required to achieve API certification reveal that NONE were developed using high-performance engines. Indeed, these tests were developed using relatively low-performance engines intended to model average current and emerging vehicle engine wear characteristics. This makes sense considering that the purpose of the ILSAC/API specifications is to provide a standard set of performance criteria for oil to be used in new over-the-road automobiles and trucks. The standards are not intended to infer any degree of backwards compatibility with older or specialty engines. While investigating the amount of ZDDP needed to protect engines Olree stated: “Arguing that modern oils should pass tests developed 25 years ago to protect engines built 30 years ago is a rather useless exercise ”. Since he is studying the situation from the perspective of designing the lubrication for the next generation of motors, we see his perspective for making such a statement. In doing so he is acknowledging that the test is not specifically designed to quantify oil’s performance with older engines. Unfortunately, “those” engines are the ones we enthusiasts run and care about.

At AMI our automotive group has 60 years of experience collectively with GM flat tappet engines. In all of this experience, the recent failures of stock cams and lifters due to severe wear is unprecedented. It is this experience as well as supporting reports from others we spoke to that made us try to find out the nature of the problem first hand. After preliminarily concluding that the low ZDDP levels in SL oils were the culprit for the wear we were seeing, we tried to obtain enough ZDDP for our own vehicles. We soon found out that major oil companies and additive manufacturers do not sell small quantities, and buying a large quantity is expensive! When others people in car clubs asked to buy ZDDP with us as well, we finally were able to put together enough justification to place an order. This is how we first found ourselves in the business of selling a ZDDP supplement.

It is our belief that there is no overt movement in the oil industry to create new oils that are bad for older engines as some conspiracy theorists may speculate. There certainly IS a movement in the oil industry to create new oils which are tailored to the specifications and requirements primarily of newer cars, and secondarily of older vehicles. This does not mean that they are concerned at all with 30 years old muscle cars. To the automotive industry an OLD car is 10 years old. The cars we care about are invisible to the OEM industry. While we have great faith in the engineering behind the new oils, we also notice that backwards compatibility with 100% of old engines is not on the product spec sheet. The oil manufacturers obviously know of the importance of the ZDDP to older flat tappet engines, as many of them are steering owners of these engines toward their ZDDP formulated diesel oil line, showing they acknowledge the possible need for higher levels of ZDDP in these engines. Unfortunately the characteristics and available viscosity ranges of diesel oil may not be suitable for our engines.

As Bob Olree knows better than we do, the amount of investment and research required to define, specify and perfect a set of tests and resulting standards is huge, and off-the-cuff recommendations like one sees in advertisements for oil supplements are poorly thought out and ill-advised. Our position on the right oil and additive package to use is simple: an individual should be using the oil specified at the time of manufacture of the specific vehicle. Period. An automotive engine is a fantastically complex and (sometimes) well thought out machine, and we believe that almost all oil additives are simply get rich schemes, impose unnecessary cost, and are unneeded at best, and like some chlorinated additives, dangerous at worst.

Our conclusion and current recommendation is to augment one of the new and superior base stock modern oils of the correct viscosity with additional ZDDP in order to bring the oil’s EP characteristics to that for which the engine was designed. We know from years of oil industry testing that ZDDP is compatible with all base stocks and other additive packages including the newer Boron EP additives, so there is little risk in adding it to achieve the equivalent of 0.12% phosphorus, a level similar to that formulated into SF or SG oils.
 
Quote:
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 is one of the most stable, low wearing lubricants you could purchase right now from a Major formulator. The additive package is very advanced and does NOT rely on ZDDP to make it work in boundary and mixed lubrication regimes.
High Valve Spring Loads are not a scary thing for this chemistry.

Shell is turning it up a few notches and this is but one example. I have no doubts your VT noise is less. I see plenty less VT wear in my customers running this oil.

Terry Dyson
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post815556
 
This is from LN Engineering, a Porsche engine rebuilder, and they are very vocal about the loss of ZDDP:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

Excerpt:
Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine. With longevity and the protection of vital engine components in mind, many shops are recommending non-approved motorcycle or racing oils, or the addition of oil supplements at every oil change, for their higher levels of protection.

Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives and switching to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants in their new low SAPS oils since Zn, P, and sulfated ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters. One such ZF dispersant/anti-wear additive is boron, which does not foul the catalysts in the particulate emissions filters or catalytic converters. For most owners, the reduction in longevity of a catalytic converter is a small price to pay considering the many thousands of dollars it costs to properly rebuild a Porsche engine. It is worth noting that most Porsches have lived the majority of their lives with high Zn and P oils as found in API SG-SJ oils as late as 2004, and we never hear of problems with their catalytic converters.

In addition to protecting emissions controls, there are many other design considerations in formulating engine lubricants, which include improving fuel economy and longer drain intervals. High friction can result in areas with boundary lubrication or where high viscous friction forces and drag may occur with hydrodynamic lubrication in bearings. The use of friction modifiers, such as moly (there are many different species of Mo-based friction modifiers, help to reduce friction in metal-to-metal contact with the formation of tribofilms characterized with their glassy, slippery surfaces. Lower viscosity motor oils are key to increasing fuel economy by their reduction in drag where high viscous friction occurs in hydrodynamic lubrication. While lower viscosities improve fuel economy greatly, they also reduce the hydrodynamic film strength and high temperature high shear viscosity of the motor oil, factors both of which are key to protecting high performance engines, especially aircooled ones.

However, it is worth noting that these new API guidelines do not need apply to “racing,” “severe duty,” or any motor oils that do not carry an API “starburst” seal or clearly state for off-road-use only. Motor oils meeting “Energy Conserving I or II” standards should be avoided as well as those with an API SM or ILSAC GF-4 classifications. The European ACEA A3/B3 classifications, which place a cap on P levels at 0.10-0.12% but allow for higher Zn levels, to be better in taking into consideration wear and engine longevity, setting much lower wear limits, while still limiting emissions and protecting emissions control devices. It is common to find API SJ rated oils, particularly those meeting Volkswagen's stringent 505.01 standard for PD TDI engines, to also meet ACEA A3/B3 requirements. The current ACEA A3/B3 classifications require higher high-temperature high-shear (HTHS) viscosities, stay in grade sheer stability, and tighter limits on evaporative loss (noack volatility), high temperature oxidation, and piston varnish. This makes oils meeting these ACEA standards that much better for your Porsche, especially since wear limits are much more stringent for valve train wear, 1/6th to 1/4th the wear allowed in the sequences for API's newest SM or CJ-4 standards. Of particular interest is the upcoming ACEA E9 standard to supersede the API CJ-4 standard in Europe, creating a classification for low ash oils that are low detergent and are very effective in controlling wear in legacy engines.

Failure to use the right oil, use proper filtration, or observe proper changing intervals can affect the performance of even the best motor oil. This also includes changing the oil too often (needlessly bad for the environment and your wallet) or not often enough. Against conventional wisdom, engine wear decreases as oil ages to a certain extent, which means that changing your oil more frequently actually causes engine wear; these findings were substantiated by studies conducted by the auto manufacturers and petroleum companies, leading to drain intervals increased from 3,000mi/3 months to 5,000-7,500mi/6 months in most domestic vehicles, using mostly non-synthetic oils. Based off of extremely long drain intervals recommended by most European manufacturers, some in excess of two years and 20,000 mi, some users have found it best to reduce those intervals by half or even a quarter. Porsche for the 2008MY has reduced their extended drain intervals significantly to one year/12,000 mi, which is actually less miles than Porsche recommended back in the 1990s with 964 and 993 based aircooled 911s. Based on UOAs provided to us by our customers, new Porsche owners should consider reducing their drain intervals further to no more than 9,000 mi or one year.

Vehicles with track time or sustained high oil temperatures or RPMs should have their oil changed after every event (or every other event). This translates to a total of about 10 hours max, with vehicles with 12 qt or higher oil capacities- engines with smaller capacities must be changed more often. Vehicles subjected to very short drives or sustained operation in heavy traffic should indeed be serviced more often. Likewise, vehicles not driven often but driven hard a few times a year can probably go a year between oil changes, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use a good oil! Regular used oil analysis is the best way to determine ideal drain intervals for your driving habits - one good rule of thumb I have seen quoted is to change the oil with the TBN (total base number) is reduced by 50% of the original total (requiring you to also know your oil's virgin TBN). Another common recommendation is to change the oil once it's TAN (total acid number) equals the TBN. Other factors to consider are fuel dilution and shearing out of grade when determining your drain interval. With this knowledge in hand, using a quality motor oil with proper filtration and regular service is the best thing to do for your engine and to protect your investment.
 
http://www.astmtmc.cmu.edu/docs/gas/sequ...%2002-24-04.pdf

I believe above is the basis of Bob Olree's comments. He is /was a Power Train Engineer at GM and is/was Chairman of an oil standards body. He should know what he's talking.

I have now run about 20K miles using ~800ppm ZDDP oils in a 1985 Porsche. My assessment was low ZDDP was not a concern in stock engines past break-in in non-racing applications.
 
Hey Guys,

I found this old thread. Has there been any updates in technology over the past 4 yrs which may supersede the above info, or has it remained the same.

Been discussing ZDDP over at the Cadillac Forum and what over the counter oils are able to protect the Big Block Caddy motors of the 60s like the 472/500's.

Of course, I just found this test :
Black Stone Labs

I found that test by Blackstone Labs on this Jeep Forum:
Jeep Forum

One member from Europe has a 472 Caddy motor and is using the Valvoline VR1 which is supposed to have around 1300ppm. Should a ZDDP additive be considered and calculated to raise the levels of a conventional oil or add to some better synthetic oil.

Your thoughts are highly valued and appreciated.

Regards,
Chris
 
Last edited:
Hi,
cadchris - In the 1960s I worked for Chevron-Caltex in Denmark. We serviced a fleet of Caddys that were chauffeur driven hire cars. They went all over Europe on hire by US troops stationed in Germany and their families on holiday

We used SAE20 and SAE30 HD oils to CAT Supplement 3 Standard - much like versions of 15W-40 HDEOs of today. They carried top up oils with them. The motors lasted much better than some of the undercarraige due to salt used on the roads in Scandinavia in winter

15w-40 HDEOs will do a splendid job in these engines
 
Originally Posted By: cadchris
Your thoughts are highly valued and appreciated.


Good thread find! I missed this one. In my view, GM debunked the ZDDP myth before the myth even existed, by creating small block Chevs that would eat cams no matter what oil was used.
wink.gif


Nonetheless, like Doug said, the 15w-40 is a good choice, and in my view is the path of least resistance. You can get plenty of good 15w-40 oils all over the place at decent prices. There's nothing wrong with VR1 either, especially if you can get it at a decent price. Quaker State Defy is another option. ZDDP additives certainly have their place, if you can find a decent one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Oddly enough, the mention of EOS in the thread reminds me; last week I saw a bunch of EOS on the shelf at a local tire shop.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: cadchris
Your thoughts are highly valued and appreciated.


Good thread find! I missed this one. In my view, GM debunked the ZDDP myth before the myth even existed, by creating small block Chevs that would eat cams no matter what oil was used.
wink.gif


Nonetheless, like Doug said, the 15w-40 is a good choice, and in my view is the path of least resistance. You can get plenty of good 15w-40 oils all over the place at decent prices. There's nothing wrong with VR1 either, especially if you can get it at a decent price. Quaker State Defy is another option. ZDDP additives certainly have their place, if you can find a decent one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Oddly enough, the mention of EOS in the thread reminds me; last week I saw a bunch of EOS on the shelf at a local tire shop.


But the problem with the GM cams was the cams themself. They became known as "soft cams". Friends had to have them replaced with after market cams that never failed. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Originally Posted By: 1977c10phxdriver
The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.
Ha! I was just told this EXACT same thing over on TDIclub: Don't use the new low-zddp oil in the older TDI engines with flat tappet camshafts.
 
I think it is all a fine line....with all of the following to consider:

driving style
lift height and duration
spring tension (preload)
difference in lifter/rocker/cam manufacturers (both in metal used and in design)

I think some will benefit from higher ZDDP levels. Other will not. Some engines have components that could be harmed from ZDDP higher than 2000ppm. Other would not. Being a copper/nickel grain structure expert (it's what I do for a living), it is possible for anything compound or element to corrode or alter the iron grains boundaries and create corrosion.

I think there are two logical options:
1.) Find someone who has had great success with a certain type of oil and attempt to copy his results
2.) Try what you think would be best, knowing that you might fail or not achieve optimal results

You can "safely" follow someone else, or you can push forward in trying to optimize the outcome, knowing that the possibility of failure is real. Any improvement or advance comes with risk. You can always be "safe" and get in line with the rest of the sheep....be suck it up and stick your neck out there and do something different....potentially blowing everyone else away.
 
Hi,
tig1 - Over several decades many engine families have had design and/or manufacturing defect issues. Lubricants can assist in mitigating some cases and have done so quite well but they won't fix engineering defects

Soft cam lobes (due to substandard hardening procecsses) was known on some engines but many more problems more exist - ranging from defective block machining, lack of sump capacity - the list is enormous!

Over many years the API for instance and some Oil Companies also contributed to engine durability issues but the formation of ACEA shook then enough to come alive

In the end the Manufacturer typically knows best and TSBs assist in getting the best result!
 
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