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FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits

Posted By: RI_RS4

FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 04:35 PM

I've been posting on Audi FSI engines for some time now, and have discussed my oil analysis and issues with FSI engine fuel dilution impact on wear and deposit formation. Well, we now have confirmation of the oil-induced deposit formation issues with FSI engines.

Here's a direct quote from an RS4 owner who is also a Mechanical Engineer.

 Quote:
A little over a month ago, had the car in for CEL, misfires, etc. They found bad injectors, replaced them and the car runs fine now. They also found the buildup on the intake valves that been talked about here. I was able to briefly look at it while they were cleaning them, but wasn't really able to inspect them. Well, I took the manifold off myself this weekend because I was bored and felt like wrenching on my car. It obvious from the intake ports and intake manifold that there is quite a bit of oil vapor in the intake air stream. Which is typical, especially on high performance engines. There is a light oily film on the manifold port (and flaps) leading directly into the cylinder head as well as in the port itself. The closer you get to the valves, the film is more tacky and in some places, almost hard. But not like dry flakes. IMO, the oil vapor entrained in the air stream just clings to the valves and sticks because the valves are relatively hot. Its not "carbon" buildup due to combustion, its oil film buildup thats not effectively cleaned by fuel since the engine is direct injected, not port injected. The RS4 has an elaborate crankcase ventilation system equipped with a 3-stage venturi cyclone to help remove the oil particles. Obviously it doesn't separate all the oil out. I don't think some buildup would be out of the ordinary on these engines. The valve in the pic was the worst and its been roughly 800 miles since the dealer cleaned them.


 Quote:
After my $70k car's performance went down the gutter (the first oil change after the break in), I dug into it. I do various data logs almost every day. I plot the info and try to notice certain trends. After a while, things become clear but after you see your intake valves crudded up beyond belief and then in bad shape again only 800 miles later, it becomes obvious. The volatized oil creates buildup, which constantly breaks apart, which enters the combustion chamber, then adheres to injectors, which disrupts flow patterns and/or causes injector damage, which leads to poor economy and performance and fuel leakage into the chamber, that leads to cold start misfires and damaged coils. The buildup also drastically affects airflow into the engine. Dealers are good at replacing the coils, but bad at persisting to find what the root cause is. Its so ironic that the RS4 community thinks that my car is an exception just because I took the time to unveil an obvious problem. I would bet that 80% of them are having the same issues. Its really a shame, because the 4.2 FSI is going to get a bad wrap when its truly a masterpiece. I ordered 5gal of the RLI 5W40 and will be monitoring the intake valve buildup since I have no problem taking my manifold off to see what's going on.


IMO fuel dilution is the root cause for increased volatization and breakdown of the oil. 10 year oil Audi/VW formulations, designed to deal with engine sludge, do not stand up to fuel breakdown and end up as deposits on the valves, combustion chamber and injectors.

Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:09 PM

Wouldn't it also be smart to trap the oil before it gets to the valves etc. using something like this?

This is for the 2.0l FSI, brand is BSH, from their website:

Details:
Designed with simplicity of install in mind the BSH Bulletproof PCV Stage 2 kit takes our already successful PCV program one step further. Manufactured here in the US, the CNC machined BSH Bulletproof PCV Stage 2 fixes all the major problems associated with the prone to failure PCV system and adds a true catch can to capture all oil vapors that would otherwise make their way back into the engine. This package is the ideal performance solution for those who want the most out of their tuned 2.0T!

This kit comes complete with every hose, bracket, nut, and bolt needed to install!

Function:
Increase your engines performance and longevity with a BSH catch can system. Our catch can catches oil vapors and still fully meets emission requirements. Internally the catch can has chamber that forces oil to separate from the air as it passes through. This oil then falls into the gut of the can and can be drained at your next oil change.

For the best performance possible you do not want this oil making its way back into your engine! Short term oil vapors being ingested result in a greater chance for pre ignition, over time however this oil will cake the intake valves shortening the life of the engine. Outside of oil, the can will also catch water and fuel. Take a look at the detailed pic section to see what muck is getting ingested into your engine! Stop this once and for all!
Posted By: buster

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:14 PM

Thanks for sharing. How is the RLI oils holding up for other members? Is it reducing any of the deposits? It's my understanding that the bio syn oils have exceptional cleaning capability.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:18 PM

saaber1

There is already a cyclonic oil separator in these engines that is a bit more advanced than a catch can. There is nothing more efficient in removing oil from the PVC system that that. But, a cyclonic separator cannot remove volitile oil components that remains in the vapor stage. Fuel dilution can drive flashpoint down in the mid 200F range in these engines, which is the operating oil temperature.

Posted By: JAG

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:23 PM

What is the best plan for preventing this? I think it requires attention to oil choice, oil change interval, and fuel additives.

The first two are simple: superior oils and sufficiently short OCIs...whatever those are.

It is the latter that is less clear to me. What additives should be used and at what treat rates? I'm quite sure a constant dosing would be best rather than letting buildup happen then shock-dosing it to clean it up. Some candidate additives are: FP60, RLI's Fuel Additive, Techron or similar products, BG44K, and ester-based two-cycle oil like Maxima K2.

I am experimenting with Maxima K2 in my guinea pig, the VW 1.8T, using it at 750:1 and 500:1 ratios. It is not direct-injected engine but I think it can still provide insight as to relative effectiveness of various fuel additives. It is too early to tell if it will clean the carbon from the piston tops but it certainly did leave the carbon "wet" and able to be easily scraped off.

Prior to using the two-cycle oil, I tried many uses of FP60 and it did NOT clean the carbon from the piston tops. The only hope for it would be for me to increase the treat rate above what's recommended.

I just got done running BG44K in one tankful and I will pull the spark plugs any day now to see what it did. I'll report back what I find.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:24 PM

No one running Biosyn is reporting any misfires or loss in power. This particular owner just bought a 5 gallon pale of Biosyn 5W40 and will be monitoring it's progress by pulling the intake manifold and performing visual inspection of the valves. We'll know after a month on how well it does.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:33 PM

For those who like to read patents, Lubrizol has done some interesting work on creating oil formulations specifically designed to reduce intake valve deposits. In the case of the VW 4 cylinder FSI engine, they show around 40% improvement. One of the key features of the patent is the combination of PAO and synthetic Esters in the oil, with a high percentage of Esters. The one thing they could not patent was RLI's Bio-Ester technology, which was already patented, and uses PAO, bio-ester blends and stabilizers in their formulations.



Method for Reducing Intake Valve Deposits in a Direct Injection Engine
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 05:47 PM

Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?

Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?

Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/30/08 06:41 PM

Yes to all of your questions.
Posted By: SubLGT

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/31/08 01:57 AM

How are Audi service techs cleaning the valves?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/31/08 02:40 PM

RI_RS4 can you post the link to the pictures he is talking about?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 12/31/08 02:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: JAG
What is the best plan for preventing this? I think it requires attention to oil choice, oil change interval, and fuel additives.

The first two are simple: superior oils and sufficiently short OCIs...whatever those are.

It is the latter that is less clear to me. What additives should be used and at what treat rates? I'm quite sure a constant dosing would be best rather than letting buildup happen then shock-dosing it to clean it up. Some candidate additives are: FP60, RLI's Fuel Additive, Techron or similar products, BG44K, and ester-based two-cycle oil like Maxima K2.

I am experimenting with Maxima K2 in my guinea pig, the VW 1.8T, using it at 750:1 and 500:1 ratios. It is not direct-injected engine but I think it can still provide insight as to relative effectiveness of various fuel additives. It is too early to tell if it will clean the carbon from the piston tops but it certainly did leave the carbon "wet" and able to be easily scraped off.

Prior to using the two-cycle oil, I tried many uses of FP60 and it did NOT clean the carbon from the piston tops. The only hope for it would be for me to increase the treat rate above what's recommended.

I just got done running BG44K in one tankful and I will pull the spark plugs any day now to see what it did. I'll report back what I find.


best plan for preventing this is to vent crankcase out to atmosphere rather then back into intake. I did this on my S4 and no more oil deposits on the intake side(intercoolers, bypass valves and IM)

second option is to seafoam/water your car twice a year to get rid of the deposits..

first option gets my vote since it eliminates root cause of the problem.
Posted By: JAG

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 12/31/08 04:58 PM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
best plan for preventing this is to vent crankcase out to atmosphere rather then back into intake. I did this on my S4 and no more oil deposits on the intake side(intercoolers, bypass valves and IM)

second option is to seafoam/water your car twice a year to get rid of the deposits.
Thanks. Yeah that will work but isn't the loss of having some vacuum in the crankcase (due to PCV suction) a concern that fuel dilution will significantly increase? I've often wanted to install an electric "wet" pump to pull a vacuum out of the crankcase and get rid of the PCV system.
Posted By: agpatel

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 12/31/08 07:15 PM

How would you vent to the atm when the PCV is a closed system? Would you just have to run a secondary pump to keep the crankcase under vacuum. Also I will be interested to see how RLI helps with lower deposits.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 12/31/08 07:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: agpatel
How would you vent to the atm when the PCV is a closed system? Would you just have to run a secondary pump to keep the crankcase under vacuum. Also I will be interested to see how RLI helps with lower deposits.


no need to keep crankcase in vacuum.crankcase with atmospheric pressure is just fine..

you just need to cap of source of crankcase vacuum so you don't have vacuum leak.
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 01/10/09 07:21 PM

 Originally Posted By: SubLGT
How are Audi service techs cleaning the valves?

This is from dsire on vwvortex. Looks like a good method to me.



Remove the intake air temp sensor using a t30 torx.

1/4" fuel line (the heavy duty stuff with 1/2" OD) fits perfectly into the intake air sensor port, which is centrally located directly above the throttle body. This will distribute evenly to all four cylinders.

A basketball needle fits perfectly inside and provides enough restriction that you can run without codes. It also will meter the valve cleaner at a rate of approx. 100-150 ml/min, which will prevent hydrolocking the engine. (calcs based on a 0.5 to 0.6 mm diameter opening in the needle, and an intake vacuum of 20" of hg (approx. -10 psig)

Leave the intake air sensor electrically connected so you do not get any faults. It will still sense the air temp, albeit a little off.

Do not goose the throttle with it connected. You want the intake under vacuum, and not boost pressure.

The active ingredient in the valve cleaner is naptha. The good German Ventil Sauber (valve cleaner) is about twice the concentration as the domestic Seafoam, but you get twice as much Seafoam for your buck.

Use a longer fuel line than I have shown so you can dip into the can.
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 01/10/09 07:33 PM

Here are some real world examples of fuel/oil/water caught in the pcv line on 2.0 FSI turbo engines which sheds light on fuel dilution and intake deposit issue. This was the drainage from a catch can system. from vw vortex thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4115371&page=3
500 miles
600 miles
800 miles
1100 miles 8 ounces
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/19/09 10:18 PM


Here is a photo posted by vwtechhouston on vw vortex. It is the intake valves of vw eos with only 22k miles. It appears reducing oil/other-derived deposits in the pcv system is a big deal in direct injection engines.

Posted By: rshunter

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/23/09 08:56 AM

Has this problem been an issue in Europe? If it hasn't, perhaps it relates to the North American market's lower standard of using 502.00 oil.

Are there reports of this problem while running a 504.00 oil? Just curious, as I haven't had any issue with my 2.0T FSI and I'm running 504.00 certified Mobil-1 5W-30 ESP.

Cheers
Posted By: moribundman

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 09:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: rshunter
Has this problem been an issue in Europe?


One of my German friends told me recently this joke:

In Germany we change the oil. In the US they change engines.




Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 04:13 PM

In Europe the engines are able to run in the lean burn stratified mode, because their fuels are much higher quality than ours. This partially mitigates the fuel dilution problem, and thus the amount of oil that the PCV system deposits on the valves.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 05:16 PM

I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...

Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
Posted By: jesbo

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 05:29 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
....I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?


Well thats certainly my approach for my BMW N54 DI engine - assuming GC is considered "high end synthetic" and 7-7.5K OCI is "conservative".

I'd try RLI, but am concerned about warranty issues. GC meets BMW spec; RLI - while probably better for the DI, doesn't. \:\(
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 05:31 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...

Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?

Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.

My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?

So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).

Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 05:35 PM

Also, does anyone know if the tuning companies such as APR, GIAC, Revo. etc. who reprogram the computer for more boost etc. utilize the lean burn stratified mode? That seems like an obvious potential solution (i.e. make u.s. cars run more like euro. cars and use better fuel here in the U.S. (no cra.p.py ARCO gas))
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 05:52 PM

No. If they did, you'd see much worse problems. Our sulfur levels in fuel are extremely high when compared to the Europeans. In europe the strat mode includes a de-sulfurization cycle to clean the cats. Over here, it does not work, as sulfur builds up too quickly.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 06:14 PM

 Originally Posted By: saaber1
So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"?

AFAIK, yes. You're only evacuating through a small hole, so vacuum is good.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 06:49 PM

 Originally Posted By: saaber1
 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...

Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?

Another solution is to eliminate the pcv system and go to a crankcase evacuation system that vents to the atmosphere. Obviously one has to be aware of the environmental or passing emissions inspections issues for that solution.

My concern right now is will atmospheric pressure alone be enought to effectively evacuate the crankcase (for example a catch can with a breather)? My question with an atmospheric-only solution is would one be fixing the pcv-derived deposits issue but create a new issue of water/fuel/acid buildup in the oil?

So my question is, "is vacuum required to effectively evacuate the crankcase"? I have been thinking about making a simple solution like this which would evacuate gases under vacuum but have nothing returning to the intake to be burned. Of course the lines for the existing PCV to intake etc. would be blocked off with this system. The only lines left open would be the line from the crankcase to the valve cover and the pcv-out line (line from teh valve cover which used to go to the intake but now goes to catch can etc. as shown).



I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.

So that is a simple solution.

Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 07:38 PM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom

I have eliminated pcv system on my S4 and have done several UOA afterward without any problems or issues showing up.

So that is a simple solution.


Cool! I assume this is not a vacuum assisted evacuation system? It would be nice to have before and after (before and after system installation I mean) TBN and TAN numbers on the UOAs to see if the atmospheric system lead to increased buildup of acids but it sure doesn't appear to be showing up in wear numbers based on those UOAs. At what mileage did you eliminate the PCV?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 07:45 PM

No vacuum pump, just went out...

I would say last three UOA's are without PCV, last two for sure.
Posted By: moribundman

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/23/09 09:03 PM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
In Europe the engines are able to run in the lean burn stratified mode, because their fuels are much higher quality than ours. This partially mitigates the fuel dilution problem, and thus the amount of oil that the PCV system deposits on the valves.



Most of the above, which I have pointed out in the past, is why I wouldn't buy a car with an FSI engine, which is unsuitable for operating as intended, given second rate fuel and (usually) poor service. When in Rome do as the Romans. For the US that means, drive a car with a simple engine that can take a lot of abuse (also from the dealer). It's why I bought an Audi with a simple 2.8 V6 12 valve engine and not the 1.8T motor, and why I had zero interest in the 2.8 V6 30 valve engine. Of those three engines, the one that I picked, is the most reliable and durable one. If I were living in Western Europe, I'd buy a car with an FSI engine in a heartbeat, here in the US I wouldn't want one no matter how tempting.
Posted By: Nederlander75

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/23/09 11:02 PM

Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?

Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?

Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.


Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?
Posted By: rshunter

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 02:57 AM

Anyone have a recommendation for a good oil sampling device? I'm piling on the miles since I did the 10k service, and I'd be interested in doing an in-service UOA when the oil hits the 5k mark. We can see what the numbers look like with a Euro-spec 504.00 oil, instead of the 502.00 that VWoA is pushing and seemingly everyone is using...

BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?

Cheers
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 05:09 AM

 Originally Posted By: rshunter
Anyone have a recommendation for a good oil sampling device? I'm piling on the miles since I did the 10k service, and I'd be interested in doing an in-service UOA when the oil hits the 5k mark. We can see what the numbers look like with a Euro-spec 504.00 oil, instead of the 502.00 that VWoA is pushing and seemingly everyone is using...

BTW, what lab have you guys had the best experience with?

Cheers


I like this little blackstone pump. The blackstone sample bottle screws onto it and the oil never contaminates the pump. The plastic hose goes down the dipstick tube. I replace the plastic tubing each time which is only 8-20 cents per foot for the tubing.

Blackstone is a popular choice for the lab also but I wouldn't say it is better than any of the others and obviously you get much better analysis with Terry Dyson's lab but it is more expensive. Stick with one lab once you choose it for consistency of results. Many other labs and possibly other pumps besides blackstone's out there.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/pump.html
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 06:11 AM

I just read the thread that the first quote in the OP came from: http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/107764.phtml

Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:


- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.

- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.

- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.

- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.


Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 06:25 PM

 Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?

Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?

Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.


Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?


Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 06:32 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I just read the thread that the first quote in the OP came from: http://forums.audiworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/107764.phtml

Here's my take on the topic, based on nothing but an outsider's view of the debate and my own faculties of reason, such as they are:


- The carbon buildup on the valves themselves could be due to poor quality fuel and inappropriate usage (too many short trips etc.), or it could be due to the obvious oil vapor in the intake tract.

- The aforementioned oil vapor could be caused by a malfunctioning PCV system, volatization of the oil, or some combination thereof.

- Therefore, oil formulation is only one of a few possible causes of the problem.

- HOWEVER, switching oils is the easiest thing for the user to do and, if it works, addresses almost all the possible causes directly or indirectly.


Thoughts? RI_RS4, if you're still here, does that sound about right to you?


For the Audi and VW FSI engines, you need to remember that fuel never flows over the back side of the valves normally. It is injected directly into the cylinder. These engines all have cyclonic oil/fuel separators in the PCV system, to allow the volatile fuel components in the oil to flow through the intake, and allow the oil to condense back into the sump.

Since it is volatile fuel components that vaporize out of the oil, the "nasty" components of our poor fuel are left behind in the oil. The volatile fuel components generally burn cleanly, and would not cause significant deposits on the back of the valve. However, the volatized oil that is not condensed back into the engine, can deposit on the valve backs. This has been confirmed by removal of RS4 intake manifolds and of VW and Audi 2.0L TFSI engine heads.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/24/09 10:08 PM

Ah, okay.

But what I'm trying to get at is the take-home lesson here. As I understand, it's this: There may be many causes, and oil formulation is only one of them, but changing oils is easy and addresses all of them. Is that the right conclusion to draw? Or, is oil type demonstrably the biggest cause whereas none of the other possibilities is as likely?
Posted By: Nederlander75

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/25/09 12:06 AM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
 Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
Rl_RS4, are you saying that the cleaning which takes place is from the oil vapors going through the intake valves and combustion chamber? If so, is Biosyn effective because it reduces volatility or because of the cleaning effectiveness of the volatilized oil?

Is the oil volatility inevitable with any oil in this engine and the most important factor in terms of preventing deposits to the intake valves, injectors, etc. the oil's ability to clean?

Very cool info. posted above BTW, thanks!

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Yes to all of your questions.


Would this also mean that other POE based, or included in the mix, provide similar benefit, such as Redline?


Not necessarily. As I understand it, the effectiveness of Biosyn comes from the synergistic interactions between PAO, Bio-esters and additives. The total is greater than the some of the parts.


Ah, thank you!
Posted By: Steve S

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 02:04 AM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I can't imagine that would eliminate the problem unless you're running an oil with ZERO volatility...

Am I being paranoid here? This looks like an inherent design flaw in DI engines that will require periodic treatment with heavy solvents in the intake tract. I don't see a permanent solution besides uber high end synthetic oils, conservative OCIs, and preventative maintenance on the PCV system. Is there something I'm missing?
There is an oil mist in the crankcase if you think about what happens inside an engine.,The oil scraped from the cyl walls the oil flung fron the crank and rods,piston squirters ,Oil launched off the cam ,rockers,lifters [if any] etc. Blowby is anything that gets past the rings ,moisture and oil .
Posted By: Steve S

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 02:06 AM

Fine german engineering = the more parts the better. I from experience would like no moving parts ,knowing that is impossible ,one moving part would be acceptable.
Posted By: tdi-rick

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 08:54 AM

Mann-Hummel's Provent would more than likely near eliminate the oil vapour going back into the intake.
AFAIK it's the most efficient separator available, and a Mann cyclonic separator is the OE fitment on one of my engines.

The Provent uses a coalescing media element to trap and separate out oil vapour.



*declaration* I'm part of a long term trial of Provent for Mann
Posted By: rshunter

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 12:17 PM

Hmm, now that looks interesting...

ProVent® – MANN+HUMMEL Oil Separator for Closed and Open Crankcase Ventilation
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 03:04 PM

 Originally Posted By: rshunter


I like the fact that it has a pressure relief valve so if the filter ever got really clogged the valve would prevent build up of too much pressure in the crankcase.

Have also heard good things about the racor oil separators:

http://www.gemo-online.de/pdf/Industrie/eng/CCV-Brochure_eng.pdf
Posted By: jmac

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 02/25/09 07:52 PM

 Originally Posted By: Steve S
Fine german engineering = the more parts the better.


On the funny side, I thought that this was the original pervue of British Leyland. I once heard, or read a description of a diagram of an exploded view of a jaguar drivetrain as likened to "a map of china with an arrow pointing out the name and location of every Chinaman."
Posted By: Quadrasteer

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/01/09 05:59 PM


My humble .02, I have 2 Audis, 1 being an '06 2.0T, I know that there is a pcv (or whatever they call it) recall. Not sure what years or dates are involved. Also, what about using a good quality engine flush on a staggered basis (the last time I used an Amsoil flush my Caddy Northstar bit the dust)? Or what about using an oil additive, we used to use Marvel Mystery Oil in some aircraft engines for some of the same problems? We now use V-Power fuel most of the time and I'm always throwing in one of the numerous cleaners I have in my collection. Still trying to solve my "best Audi oil" question.

 Originally Posted By: jmac
 Originally Posted By: Steve S
Fine german engineering = the more parts the better.

On the funny side, I thought that this was the original pervue of British Leyland. I once heard, or read a description of a diagram of an exploded view of a jaguar drivetrain as likened to "a map of china with an arrow pointing out the name and location of every Chinaman."


Ah, brings back memories of my Austin Healeys transmission and French (I think) overdrive unit spread out over my basement. Knew the parts counter men on a first name basis.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/02/09 08:42 PM

The deposits make sense.

When I did my engineering thesis, the majority of the work was on the flow of air and fuel in inlet manifolds.

When there was air/fuel flow, there would always be a film of fuel flowing along the wetted walls of the manifold at around 1/10 of the speed of the air.

The oil would so the same, crawling along the manifold walls, getting hotter and boiling off the light fractions until you are left with semi solid/solid deposits.

Mercedes made use of this phenomenon (not the deposits) in their wankels, by introducing the tip seal lubricating oil into the boundary layer of the inlet manifold, where it crept along, straight into contact with the tip seal...rather than just injecting more than was needed.
Posted By: hustler

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/05/09 02:25 PM

here's my remarkably complex vapor acquisition system:

It stinks, but works and keeps the business end of the engine happy and safe.

I'm also concerned about fuel contamination in the oil because I run 11.5:1 AFR's which is why I'm running Rotella Synth for half the price of RedLine. I'm concerned that fuel contamination will shorten OCI enough to not justify the cost.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/08/09 12:20 AM

Here's RS4 valves in the UK with only 3700 miles on the engine. The owner used Shell Optimax and V-power fuel, along with Castrol Edge, after purchasing the car with 1200 miles on the odometer

Posted By: rhouse181

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/08/09 01:12 AM

This Provent Oil Separator looks pretty cool!

I drive a 08 VW GTI with the 2.0 T FSI motor and I've been looking to add some kind of catch can/oil separator. BSH makes a rudimentary catch can which uses steel wool to condense particulates, but this Provent thing looks like it will work much better.

TDI-rick, what process do you need to set one of these up right? Here is the BSH product:



I was going to use their hardware to block off the stock PCV system and substitute in the Provent oil separator. Do you need a vacuum on the oil return line coming from the Provent can, or will the oil just drain out with gravity (or will that cause a pressure drop in the Provent, rendering it useless)? Any help is much appreciated...

RI RS4, thanks for all your hard work. Most of this stuff is directly applicable to our DI VW 2.0T's. You have inspired me to start collecting some UOA data and develop a catch can solution to reduce the intake deposits!
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/08/09 02:56 PM

 Originally Posted By: rhouse181
I drive a 08 VW GTI with the 2.0 T FSI motor and I've been looking to add some kind of catch can/oil separator. BSH makes a rudimentary catch can which uses steel wool to condense particulates, but this Provent thing looks like it will work much better.

I was going to use their hardware to block off the stock PCV system and substitute in the Provent oil separator. Do you need a vacuum on the oil return line coming from the Provent can, or will the oil just drain out with gravity (or will that cause a pressure drop in the Provent, rendering it useless)? Any help is much appreciated...

Here is a cut and paste of a couple of my posts on vwvortex related to this. The info. may answer some of your questions:

Keeping things clean by all manner possible is the way to go, such as:

1. catch can and/or atmospheric pcv system/elimination

2. cleaning valves http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4256886

3. running fuel injector cleaner, all good things to do.

To me, if cost was no factor, I would block off rear, block of intake hose, and run a Provent catch can http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/ge....html .. ... .. http://www.928gt.com/productspecs/ProVent1.pdf , together with an electric vacuum pump similar to this: http://moparforums.com/forums/...r-234/

That way gases are still being pulled out of the crankcase under vacuum and you have a super efficient catch can with a built in pressure regulator which prevents overpressure in the crankcase if it ever was totally plugged and prevents gunk from going out the breather and getting your engine compartment dirty. And of course because it vents to the atmosphere, none of that gunk is going back into the engine.

also related info:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4181184

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4261021

Potential problems with both FFE and BSH (BSH race can not out yet) as is are:

1. Potential to freeze in cold weather

2. No pressure relief valve so that if lines/can became clogged it could cause overpressure in crankcase

3. No vacuum assist, relies on atmospheric pressure alone which some say can cause oil to degrade much more quickly due to inadequate evacuation of crankcase gases/oil/fuel/other. Note that other systems on other cars usually drill additional ports for the atmospheric system to work correctly. It has to "breathe" well. The current systems rely on one small port. Is it enough? Who knows?

More info here:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1199935

http://www.gemo-online.de/pdf/...g.pdf
Posted By: glxpassat

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/09/09 07:03 PM

What is the great benefit of using direct injection? Seems to be a bad design. I can't believe the benefits are worth dealing with these problems. Did Audi even tear one of these engines down to examine before making a production decision?
Posted By: moribundman

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/09/09 07:24 PM

 Originally Posted By: glxpassat
What is the great benefit of using direct injection?


You can do loops and rolls in your quattro without the engine stalling.
Posted By: glxpassat

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/09/09 07:35 PM

 Originally Posted By: moribundman
 Originally Posted By: glxpassat
What is the great benefit of using direct injection?


You can do loops and rolls in your quattro without the engine stalling.


That's what I thought. Thanks Mori!
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/09/09 07:36 PM

 Originally Posted By: glxpassat
What is the great benefit of using direct injection? Seems to be a bad design. I can't believe the benefits are worth dealing with these problems. Did Audi even tear one of these engines down to examine before making a production decision?

There are big potential benefits to power, fuel economy, and knock prevention.

Maybe the real problem is that these engines are extremely sensitive to fuel type, driving habits, and PCV system function -- i.e. if any of those is slightly off and not compensated for, there's trouble. That might explain how Audi could test these engines without finding a serious problem, and why changing to an esoteric kind of oil is the only sure fix in the real world.

That's just my speculation, though. I could be totally wrong.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/09/09 08:45 PM

One strong benefit of DI is the potential to improve emissions, and actually using the fuel rather than burning some of it in the cat.

If you think about a mixed charge entering the cylinder, as the piston rises, air (and fuel) are pushed into all of the crevices around the piston top and top ring, where they can't burn, and are released in the exhaust stroke to be dealt with by the cat.

In a DI, theses crevices should only contain air.

But then how does fuel dilution come to play as a big factor in these engines ?
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/09/09 08:58 PM

Because it's the stratified lean burn mode that keeps those areas free of fuel, and that mode can't always be used.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/09/09 09:00 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Because it's the stratified lean burn mode that keeps those areas free of fuel, and that mode can't always be used.


It's never used in the US. But even in Europe there are serious issues with valve deposits surfacing.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/10/09 05:48 PM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Because it's the stratified lean burn mode that keeps those areas free of fuel, and that mode can't always be used.


It's never used in the US. But even in Europe there are serious issues with valve deposits surfacing.


If it were my car I would just went PCV system out to atmosphere..and kill the problem in its root

no oil vapor in the intake = no deposits on the valves
Posted By: agpatel

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/10/09 05:55 PM

Which is what i will be doing soon :) Once a vented catch can comes out that I like and I get my tax refund.

I also use to have a paper that was on FSI motors were they put a hole in the side of the cylinder wall and put a clear cover over it and had high speed camera video tape the combustion process and you it was a good read. But, now I cant seem to find it.
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/10/09 06:26 PM

 Originally Posted By: agpatel
Which is what i will be doing soon :) Once a vented catch can comes out that I like


Ditto. The cans/systems that are out there aren;t that great IMO. Certainly better than nothing though.

I will probably do something like this on my own if no one comes out with a good solution. I believe the provent can has a built in regulator (not sure need to research it more) which would eliminate the need for the control valve shown below. One might possibly pick up minor horsepower gains with this system also (drag racers etc. do) but that would be just an indirect benefit. The goal is to eliminate the deposits.

Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/11/09 07:03 PM

This is what I did to my S4

Posted By: hustler

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/11/09 08:59 PM

I wonder if this is extra-severe in the turbo engines. It sounds like an excellent justification for water injection on those engines. Do these engines get "good tuning" in factory form, or do they run super-fat? I know the mazdaspeed miata likes to run fatter than an lc-1 wideband reads (10.0:1).
Posted By: Steve S

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/11/09 10:00 PM

Would the engine run or not throw a code vented to the atmosphere?
Posted By: agpatel

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/11/09 11:42 PM

As long as you do not have any air that is not metered by the mass air flow you will be fine. Just have to block off the rear PCV where it goes to the intake. Just have to make sure you have no vac leak and you will not throw a code.
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/12/09 12:26 AM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
This is what I did to my S4


Is there oil etc. in the engine compartment from the "vent"? or are you using a catch can or some other way to keep gunk out of the engine compartment?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/12/09 01:16 PM

 Originally Posted By: saaber1
 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
This is what I did to my S4


Is there oil etc. in the engine compartment from the "vent"? or are you using a catch can or some other way to keep gunk out of the engine compartment?


I just got about 4ft of coolant hose and ran it back by the tranny and down, so it vents out under the car and onto road..funny thing I didn't notice any dripping when the car is parked..not sure how it looks like when I am under full boost

no funny smell in cabin or oil mess in the engine compartment
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/12/09 02:49 PM

Sounds simple, low tech, and effective. Same as the "road tubes" used by pre emissions U.S. cars (long live the highway "grease strips" in the middle of the highway lanes ha ha).

Some people are using a "slashcut" system and running it into the exhaust which has the benefit of "pulling" vapors out of the crankcase due to the vacuum created. Here is one "slashcut" product f.e. http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=13023

This is the best post I have seen in evaluating different crankcase evacuation techniques:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1199935

Also, a diagram from Moroso's instruction sheet:

Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/23/09 11:15 PM

here's another example of an engine in the UK, with 19000 total miles, and dealer service done with those superior European oils (most likely Castrol Edge).



Posted By: Steve S

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/24/09 01:09 AM

So that is a whole lot of blowby.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/24/09 08:26 PM

nasty, so it is not just US problem...

I will say it again..get rid of the PCV system and problem solved

no matter what oil is used there will always be lots of blow-by in this engine
Posted By: SR71

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/25/09 02:54 PM

RI_RS4,

The car you refer to was running Titan Fuchs Longlife GT1 5w-30.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/25/09 07:07 PM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
I will say it again..get rid of the PCV system and problem solved

They can't vent to atmo for emissions reasons.
Posted By: rhouse181

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/25/09 09:42 PM

sweet jesus... that thing must eat oil like crazy! the more i see and read, the more i know a catch can is necessary... i doubt an emissions inspection place would even notice a stealthy catch can under the hood
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/26/09 09:09 PM

 Originally Posted By: SR71
RI_RS4,

The car you refer to was running Titan Fuchs Longlife GT1 5w-30.


Seems like an appropriate name! So much for Fuchs. I suspect it's letting quite a bit of fuel pass through the rings.
Posted By: SR71

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/28/09 11:17 AM

Absolutely.

My oil has gone to Terry with a request to add results to your database. Been running the same stuff.

The aforementioned car has subsequently been cleaned up, along with some inlet/exhaust/mapping work and has gained "significant" hp.

However, the root causes have not been addressed and there is still no catch-can/substitute for the inefficient cyclones in place.

In addition, one off purchases of RLI to the UK are proving expensive.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/29/09 04:57 PM

I bet things wont look much different even with RLI lubricant..

Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/29/09 08:37 PM

Actual, there are already well-documented scientific studies on lubricant impact on DI engine intake valve deposits, since PVC and EGR are a fact of life in modern engine design.
Posted By: Max_Wander

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/29/09 11:29 PM

 Originally Posted By: Shannow

In a DI, theses crevices should only contain air.

But then how does fuel dilution come to play as a big factor in these engines ?


On Gasoline DI, the most common mode of injection is during the intake stroke. On very light cruising (completely off boost) will some systems inject the fuel on the compression upstroke, just before the plug fires allowing leaner mixtures. Dilution could be from the fact that GDI injectors are angled low, and not 90degrees as in a CDI. The angle causes the injector to lay the spray right along the cylinder walls where surface tension takes over.

That's how the Mazda version works, not too sure about the others' first gen systems, but imagine them to be likewise. Later generation systems involve angling the spray nozzle itself and modifying the amount and size of the holes.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/30/09 03:40 AM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

Wow. If no problem could be solved except by the thing that caused it, we'd live in a very different world...

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.

So what do you propose to do with the excess emissions?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/30/09 05:47 PM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Actual, there are already well-documented scientific studies on lubricant impact on DI engine intake valve deposits, since PVC and EGR are a fact of life in modern engine design.


any pictures of intake valves on the cars that use RLI lubricant?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/30/09 05:55 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

Wow. If no problem could be solved except by the thing that caused it, we'd live in a very different world...

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.

So what do you propose to do with the excess emissions?


I am afraid that this is the case for DI engine problem...

as for the emissions, how much extra gas is burned(and will be burned) in these DI cars because of the vale deposits..keep in mind as deposits get worse mileage and emissions will increase since most people are not gearheads like us and will keep driving the cars until they start getting misfires...only then they will take it to the shop, but then heads will have to come off to clean the stuff out...

Posted By: Max_Wander

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/31/09 01:36 AM

A standard auxiliary fuel injector tuned for WOT & higher boost might work. I know a guy who had meth injection on his Mazdaspeed3. I'd imagine an occasional squirt would suffice to prevent buildup. Dude also seafoamed regularly...car was fast!
Posted By: SR71

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 03/31/09 10:13 PM

I thought meth+H20 injection might work until I saw the state of the inlet.

Check out: http://audisrs.com/about5000.html?sid=2fd70c8eca3da3592ed0433336f4b247

(You might have to register first.)

It took an hour to clean each port with diesel and coca-cola!

It might work if you'd had the work-around from new, but even cars with 3K miles on them are covered in s**t.

Audi UK have (informally) said "It's OK because cars are not mis-firing."

Great attitude towards a premium product.
Posted By: wapacz

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/08/09 02:24 AM

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
Lubricant is not a problem to begin with so it can't be part of the solution..

Wow. If no problem could be solved except by the thing that caused it, we'd live in a very different world...

 Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
get rid of PCV and EGR and that will take care of the deposits.

So what do you propose to do with the excess emissions?


I am afraid that this is the case for DI engine problem...

as for the emissions, how much extra gas is burned(and will be burned) in these DI cars because of the vale deposits..keep in mind as deposits get worse mileage and emissions will increase since most people are not gearheads like us and will keep driving the cars until they start getting misfires...only then they will take it to the shop, but then heads will have to come off to clean the stuff out...



If it is truly fuel dilution related i would expect it to be more of a di in conjunction turbo problem than a di problem. Since the gm v6 3.6 di engine doesn't seem to suffer from fuel dilution problems.


On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/08/09 03:15 AM

 Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.
Posted By: gpshumway

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/09/09 08:38 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


Doubtful, many Diesel oils (Rotella T, TDT) are rated for use in catalyst equipped gasoline cars as well.

More likely it's the lean mixture diesels usually run.
Posted By: rshunter

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/10/09 05:02 AM

It's been suggested that the position and spray pattern of the fuel injectors may play a role. The theory is that the current set-up promotes fuel "sticking" to the cylinder wall.
Posted By: jmac

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/10/09 04:23 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
 Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


Except now for 50 state legal engines there are catalytic converters along with EGR systems and DPF exhaust.
Posted By: bruno

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/10/09 04:44 PM

That could be a problem except the emissions rest is a long distance test - a lot more than 3,000 miles - in fact MORE than ten times as long !
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/10/09 05:22 PM

 Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Doubtful, many Diesel oils (Rotella T, TDT) are rated for use in catalyst equipped gasoline cars as well.

Good point. I stand corrected.
Posted By: tdi-rick

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 04/16/09 10:20 PM

 Originally Posted By: d00df00d
 Originally Posted By: wapacz
On a side not hasn't diesel been direct injection for a while. What I am trying to get at how does diesel deal with these kind of issues.

SUPER robust oil that doesn't have to take catalytic converters into account.


And modern diesels do run catalysts.

Direct injected diesels have been around since the sixties without dilution issues, but it's the entire combustion process of compress the gas to superheated, then inject the fuel that enables them to be much more efficient.
They are pumping air all the time, just varying the fuel, so they are running far leaner than what is considered stoichiometric in petrol engines.

Fuel dilution is becoming more of a problem with diesels, particularly with bio-diesel blends, but that is related to the lower volatility of bio fuels not voltising out of the crankcase.
Posted By: RI_RS4

RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/29/09 06:37 PM

After having the previous valve deposits issues running Audi approved oils, SilverRS4 took matters into his own hands by changing to Biosyn 5W40 and BioPlus, along with pulling the intake manifold to view the intake valves on a regular basis. Here are his results:

 Quote:
I had the manifold off the fourth time about a month ago when there was close to 3000 miles on the Biosyn. The valves were not clean, but it was more of a thin, oxidized film of oil, rather than thick, gooey, flow-blocking black crud (which was the case after 4000 miles of factory oil, 4000 miles of Mobil 1, and less than 1000 miles of Castrol TXT). I was pleased and will certainly keep using the Biosyn. I am sure Scott could fill you in on the chemistry that makes the build up rate noticably less. I also use the Biosyn fuel conditioner (2 oz) with each fuel fill of Shell gasoline to make sure the injectors stay clean. With the FSI aspect of the 4.2L engine, I believe that sparkly clean valves is just not a realistic expectation - even with Biosyn. But I am happy with how its working thus far. The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant. I live in the Midwest and am stuck with Ethanol blended fuel even in the 91-92 octane Tier 1 fuels (Shell included)- that could be part of it, I don't know.

As far as my cleaning method, it was just the old fashion way. In six of the eight cylinders, the intake valves were completely closed, so I just poured in several ounces of carb cleaner right into the intake ports and let the valves soak several hours. Then a majority of the crud comes off with aggressive scraping with an appropriately shaped metal tool. The valve stems block the ability to scrape the area behind them. Vacuum out the mess. Then I poured in fresh solvent and put a small Dremel-type wire brush tool on the end of a cordless drill. Scrub, scrub, scrub. The varnish layer of buildup on the valve surface is very, very hard. This method is limited and removes 90% of the build up at best. The walnut shell blasting would be far better. I have access to such blasting equipment and media, but its ridiculous that I or anyone else has to consider such a chore ...warranty work or not.
Posted By: benjamming

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/29/09 07:05 PM

What solvent is being used to pour in & clean the valves with the wire brush tool? Is there an oil change immediately afterwards or is this of no concern?
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/29/09 07:18 PM

I'm not sure what he used. But I do know that he changed oil to Biosyn afterwords.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/29/09 11:24 PM

from his post:

"The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant."

This is exactly reason why I deleted my PCV system..oil mist in intake/combustion chamber = deposits = but also less HP
Posted By: glxpassat

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/30/09 01:18 AM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
After having the previous valve deposits issues running Audi approved oils, SilverRS4 took matters into his own hands by changing to Biosyn 5W40 and BioPlus, along with pulling the intake manifold to view the intake valves on a regular basis. Here are his results:

 Quote:
I had the manifold off the fourth time about a month ago when there was close to 3000 miles on the Biosyn. The valves were not clean, but it was more of a thin, oxidized film of oil, rather than thick, gooey, flow-blocking black crud (which was the case after 4000 miles of factory oil, 4000 miles of Mobil 1, and less than 1000 miles of Castrol TXT). I was pleased and will certainly keep using the Biosyn. I am sure Scott could fill you in on the chemistry that makes the build up rate noticably less. I also use the Biosyn fuel conditioner (2 oz) with each fuel fill of Shell gasoline to make sure the injectors stay clean. With the FSI aspect of the 4.2L engine, I believe that sparkly clean valves is just not a realistic expectation - even with Biosyn. But I am happy with how its working thus far. The aspect that really hasn't been discussed is the affect that the oil "contaminated" intake charge has on optimum spark timing. The advanced RS4 ECM's and knock sensors seem particularly sensitive. After endless logging, I have a few cylinders that have timing retarded 4-6 degrees under moderate loads and 9-11 degrees under heavy loads. That is significant. I live in the Midwest and am stuck with Ethanol blended fuel even in the 91-92 octane Tier 1 fuels (Shell included)- that could be part of it, I don't know.

As far as my cleaning method, it was just the old fashion way. In six of the eight cylinders, the intake valves were completely closed, so I just poured in several ounces of carb cleaner right into the intake ports and let the valves soak several hours. Then a majority of the crud comes off with aggressive scraping with an appropriately shaped metal tool. The valve stems block the ability to scrape the area behind them. Vacuum out the mess. Then I poured in fresh solvent and put a small Dremel-type wire brush tool on the end of a cordless drill. Scrub, scrub, scrub. The varnish layer of buildup on the valve surface is very, very hard. This method is limited and removes 90% of the build up at best. The walnut shell blasting would be far better. I have access to such blasting equipment and media, but its ridiculous that I or anyone else has to consider such a chore ...warranty work or not.


If this is not part of the regular scheduled maintenance and I bought this car, I would find an attorney and sue Audi for a refund. The car has a serious defect and no one should have to put up with that.
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 05/30/09 03:11 PM

 Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I'm not sure what he used. But I do know that he changed oil to Biosyn afterwords.


any pictures of his intake valves before and after using biosyn?
Posted By: RI_RS4

Re: RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits (BioSyn Update) - 06/01/09 05:11 PM

I asked. He took photos at one time the manifold was off, but with a [censored] camera. He say's he'll borrow a good camera next time he pulls the intake manifold
Posted By: shpankey

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/03/10 04:46 PM

Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
This is what I did to my S4



zoomzoom, this is interesting. I assume you're in a DI mazda by your name. Speed3 or Speed6? I have an 09 Speed3 and just bought Matt Diamond's catch can kit but this seem way better. You wouldn't happen to have a how to writeup or something would you?
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/18/10 05:52 PM

use to have 626 when a joined this forum while back...now driving 2001 Audi S4..you should do something similar to what saaber1 did
Posted By: shpankey

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Deposits - 02/25/10 03:19 PM

What did saaber1 do? Any chance someone could do a How To writeup that included the material one needs?

Also, zoomzoom, I just bought an expensive complete Oil Catch Can kit. It uses two PCV's and is supposed to be really good. Will this help significantly or just be a mediocre fix that just delays the inevitable?

I really want to do what you did, vent to atmosphere. In my state, we don't have emission inspections at all, so it's not a concern. And like you said, in reality, I'm actually saving the environment when you consider what these buildups cause. I just need a list of materials and a How To article to do it, as most of this is over my head.
Posted By: diagnosticator1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/13/10 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
I've been posting on Audi FSI engines for some time now, and have discussed my oil analysis and issues with FSI engine fuel dilution impact on wear and deposit formation. Well, we now have confirmation of the oil-induced deposit formation issues with FSI engines.

Here's a direct quote from an RS4 owner who is also a Mechanical Engineer.

Quote:
A little over a month ago, had the car in for CEL, misfires, etc. They found bad injectors, replaced them and the car runs fine now. They also found the buildup on the intake valves that been talked about here. I was able to briefly look at it while they were cleaning them, but wasn't really able to inspect them. Well, I took the manifold off myself this weekend because I was bored and felt like wrenching on my car. It obvious from the intake ports and intake manifold that there is quite a bit of oil vapor in the intake air stream. Which is typical, especially on high performance engines. There is a light oily film on the manifold port (and flaps) leading directly into the cylinder head as well as in the port itself. The closer you get to the valves, the film is more tacky and in some places, almost hard. But not like dry flakes. IMO, the oil vapor entrained in the air stream just clings to the valves and sticks because the valves are relatively hot. Its not "carbon" buildup due to combustion, its oil film buildup thats not effectively cleaned by fuel since the engine is direct injected, not port injected. The RS4 has an elaborate crankcase ventilation system equipped with a 3-stage venturi cyclone to help remove the oil particles. Obviously it doesn't separate all the oil out. I don't think some buildup would be out of the ordinary on these engines. The valve in the pic was the worst and its been roughly 800 miles since the dealer cleaned them.


Quote:
After my $70k car's performance went down the gutter (the first oil change after the break in), I dug into it. I do various data logs almost every day. I plot the info and try to notice certain trends. After a while, things become clear but after you see your intake valves crudded up beyond belief and then in bad shape again only 800 miles later, it becomes obvious. The volatized oil creates buildup, which constantly breaks apart, which enters the combustion chamber, then adheres to injectors, which disrupts flow patterns and/or causes injector damage, which leads to poor economy and performance and fuel leakage into the chamber, that leads to cold start misfires and damaged coils. The buildup also drastically affects airflow into the engine. Dealers are good at replacing the coils, but bad at persisting to find what the root cause is. Its so ironic that the RS4 community thinks that my car is an exception just because I took the time to unveil an obvious problem. I would bet that 80% of them are having the same issues. Its really a shame, because the 4.2 FSI is going to get a bad wrap when its truly a masterpiece. I ordered 5gal of the RLI 5W40 and will be monitoring the intake valve buildup since I have no problem taking my manifold off to see what's going on.


IMO fuel dilution is the root cause for increased volatization and breakdown of the oil. 10 year oil Audi/VW formulations, designed to deal with engine sludge, do not stand up to fuel breakdown and end up as deposits on the valves, combustion chamber and injectors.


I disagree with the theory that the blow by from the PCV system is the cause of the severe intake port and valve deposits occurring in T/FSI Audi engines. (VWs too.) I don't believe the volume of the suspended lube oil and fuel aerosols in the crankcase ventilation is high enough to result in the amount of deposits typically found, that develop with low running time hours/miles.

Much more likely, the deposits are caused by the internal EGR. To provide for the Internal EGR, the VVT is used to extend the overlap in the valve timing a lot, with a variable percentage of effective EGR based on several factors, controlled by the ECU.

This is provoked by the absence of port fuel injection on the FSIs that on earlier manifold port fuel injection systems, washes the deposits off of the port walls and valves.

The high valve overlap angles, causes the exhaust gasses in the cylinder, to be blown into the intake ports, then the flow reverses and the exhaust gas and fresh air enter the cylinder as the intake stroke commences further. Therefore, the vaporized fuel heavy ends that are in the recirculated exhaust, has two passes past the much cooler intake ports and the valve heads where the vaporized fractions condense and build up on the effected parts. The same process occurs in the manifold port injection Audi engines that incorporate the VVT to provide the Internal EGR function, but also have the fuel washing the deposits away in the manifold injection engines.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/13/10 03:33 PM

Then how do you account for the films and pools of oil in the intake manifold?
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/13/10 04:09 PM

Originally Posted By: diagnosticator1

I disagree with the theory that the blow by from the PCV system is the cause of the severe intake port and valve deposits


Yea, the literally GALLONS of pcv gunk collected by catch cans which normally go right onto the intake valves have nothing to do with the problem.... (shakes head)

I have run my car on purpose with it venting to the atmosphere and you get oily gunk coming out like crazy. The PCV system dumps loads of gunk onto the valves. Please read about the issue more.
Posted By: JAG

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/13/10 05:04 PM

I'd bet the problem is from both PCV vapors and EGR. How much each contributes is the big unknown to me; I'm sure the answer is that "it depends". All of the pics I've seen of valve buildup show it to be jet black, indicating high free carbon content which points to EGR, IMO. It doesn't take much free carbon mixed with other stuff for the mixture to look jet black, so this does not rule out PCV vapor contribution.

saaber1, as you know, you are in a unique position to determine how much contribution EGR has since you've eliminated the PCV source. But I know it is inconvenient to view the valves. Does your re-routing eliminate PCV vapors under both boost and vacuum conditions?
Posted By: diagnosticator1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/14/10 01:56 AM

If my hypothesis is accurate, then the "pools" of oil in the intake manifold are irrelevant to the deposit accumulation.
Posted By: diagnosticator1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/14/10 02:00 AM

Yes, I agree with you on the blow by having at lease a partial share in causing the deposits, and the effective amount of the total is determined by and varies with operating conditions, that are different for each case.
Posted By: diagnosticator1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/14/10 02:05 AM

In addition, since the lube oil has a lot of detergents and TBN modifiers, I don't think the hard carbon deposits will result from that chemistry even if it's a significant part of the total, compared to the EGR fractions.
Posted By: saaber1

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/14/10 01:03 PM

This theory has no basis in fact. Read VW's patent for the engine. It says the valve deposits come from the PCV.
Posted By: shpankey

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 03/15/10 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: diagnosticator1
In addition, since the lube oil has a lot of detergents and TBN modifiers, I don't think the hard carbon deposits will result from that chemistry even if it's a significant part of the total, compared to the EGR fractions.


Well, there is the guy that had massive deposits formed, had them cleaned, then switched oils to RLI (I think it was them) and later took it off again and he didn't have deposits, just a tacky residue that wasn't really too bad. That in itself is proof to me.

I don't have the link anymore, another forum. But I read it from one of the links saaber had.
Posted By: GordonC

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/26/10 03:40 AM

Hello, I recently joined the forum, after reading occasionally over the years. I've started paying particular attention to the DI engines, especially Audi's, as I have a 2010 S5 on order with the 4.2 FSI V8 engine.

I didn't see this discussed in this thread or other Audi DI threads, so if I overlooked it please excuse me. I came across this article from Lubrizol, presented at a 2006 conference: http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/UEIL2006LowerSAPS.html it's titled "Lower SAPS Engine Oils:
Essential components in maintaining vehicle emissions compliance", and it's interesting reading, especially when you get to page 19. wink

They claim testing has proven that Euro 4 lower SAPS oils are significantly better in preventing valve deposits in direct injection gasoline engines, in comparison to OEM-approved Euro 3 engine oils.

Can prevention or reduction of valve deposits really be that simple? There may be much to this, if rli-rs4's data compilation has shown the RLI Biosyn to show a significant improvement. Thoughts, please? What are the Audi-approved Euro 4 low SAP oils out there?
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/26/10 04:07 AM

That sounds plausible. The only possible caveat is that low SAPS oils may have less acid fighting ability, so you'd have to change the oil a lot more frequently if your gasoline contains ethanol.

Interesting proposition for sure.
Posted By: Finklejag

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/26/10 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By: GordonC

They claim testing has proven that Euro 4 lower SAPS oils are significantly better in preventing valve deposits in direct injection gasoline engines, in comparison to OEM-approved Euro 3 engine oils.

Can prevention or reduction of valve deposits really be that simple? There may be much to this, if rli-rs4's data compilation has shown the RLI Biosyn to show a significant improvement. Thoughts, please? What are the Audi-approved Euro 4 low SAP oils out there?


Welcome GordonC, and thanks for the info. You can pick up Castrol SLX III at all VW/Audi dealers. It's a 504/507 oil.





Posted By: paul_e320

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/27/10 05:20 PM

Here's something I found from another site -- seems like the BG company is planning to take advantage of this problem and turn it into a cash cow!!

Regards,
paul...

http://www.bgfueltest.com/
Posted By: Finklejag

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/27/10 06:04 PM

What I have seen from other sites. The only thing the BG Induction System Cleaner does, is clean out your wallet!
Posted By: Turkeybaster115

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 05/03/10 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: GordonC
They claim testing has proven that Euro 4 lower SAPS oils are significantly better in preventing valve deposits in direct injection gasoline engines, in comparison to OEM-approved Euro 3 engine oils.

Can prevention or reduction of valve deposits really be that simple? There may be much to this, if rli-rs4's data compilation has shown the RLI Biosyn to show a significant improvement. Thoughts, please? What are the Audi-approved Euro 4 low SAP oils out there?


I have a 2007 Audi A6 Quattro, and its very tough on oil. At 51K miles, The engine was sludged up, despite running Total ineo MC3 low SAP. The only thing I can tell you to do with these engines, is to throw in lubromoly motor clean every other oil change. Let it run in there for 10 minutes, and then drain the oil. This is the only way I've found to reduce the sludge.
Posted By: rs4vr

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 05/16/10 09:15 PM

How come the oil specified for the RS4 in the US is 5W-40 (502) and the rest of the world it looks like a 5W-30 (504/7) oil is specified.

I read the 504/7 specification superceded 502.. so is it OK to use a 5W-30 in the US? Would I be causing any increased wear etc?

Thanks folks!
Posted By: BobFout

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 05/16/10 09:59 PM

Originally Posted By: rs4vr
How come the oil specified for the RS4 in the US is 5W-40 (502) and the rest of the world it looks like a 5W-30 (504/7) oil is specified.

I read the 504/7 specification superceded 502.. so is it OK to use a 5W-30 in the US? Would I be causing any increased wear etc?

Thanks folks!


I'm going to guess one or several of these:

- We are still on the fixed-interval of 10K miles (whereas 504.00/507.00 is a long drain oil)
- Our fuel may not be up to the same standards (causing issues with BMW)
- Fuel management may be different (lean-burn not included due to US emissions)

Anyone else have thoughts about this?
Posted By: rs4vr

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 05/17/10 01:33 AM

I did read that US gasoline tends to have higher levels of sulfur and ethanol.

I'm wondering if this is part of the issue.
Posted By: Audi Junkie

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 06/17/10 03:42 AM

Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.

Right now, I have a 2010 TSI w/500 miles and I don't know what to do. I'd run a cc, but that would rip into any warranty claims. I'd like to have some faith that VW improved the system, but who knows. Extended warranty would not do anything to clean the valves, until it misfires it's an aesthetic issue!

Fuel quality and OC intervals will have to be the solution available. I plan 4 month intervals, maybe 3-5k max for me. I have a bunch of different synth oils to use, they should not be stressed, ordinarily.

I have Top-Tier fuel here, that's what the manual calls for so I guess that's what I will use exclusively. My Tiguan sat on the lot for 8 months, so I hit it w/2 bottles of Techron right off the bat, and it did wake the engine up! I usually run 2 cycle oil in my gas, do people think this is a good idea? Seems like it can only help.
Posted By: UG_Passat

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 06/22/10 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.



Because it is a Low SAPS oil that meets 507/507

The US Castrol EDGE is not the same as Euro EDGE.


http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetailmin.do?categoryId=9014072&contentId=7027058
Posted By: UG_Passat

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 06/22/10 02:46 PM

..also P.S. 2.0T engines do not have EGR.
Posted By: BobFout

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 06/22/10 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
..also P.S. 2.0T engines do not have EGR.


How do they meet emissions w/o EGR? shocked
Posted By: zoomzoom

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 06/28/10 04:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Ok, after reading everything, if according to Lubrizol, low saps oils reduce intake valve deposits, why did the UK Jetta have them running Edge 5w-30? Likely the long 19k miles interval was an issue.

Right now, I have a 2010 TSI w/500 miles and I don't know what to do. I'd run a cc, but that would rip into any warranty claims. I'd like to have some faith that VW improved the system, but who knows. Extended warranty would not do anything to clean the valves, until it misfires it's an aesthetic issue!

Fuel quality and OC intervals will have to be the solution available. I plan 4 month intervals, maybe 3-5k max for me. I have a bunch of different synth oils to use, they should not be stressed, ordinarily.

I have Top-Tier fuel here, that's what the manual calls for so I guess that's what I will use exclusively. My Tiguan sat on the lot for 8 months, so I hit it w/2 bottles of Techron right off the bat, and it did wake the engine up! I usually run 2 cycle oil in my gas, do people think this is a good idea? Seems like it can only help.


better get ready to seafoam the [censored] out of it before every oil change
Posted By: Steven_Oakes

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/19/11 06:45 AM

Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that, I have never needed to "top up" between oil changes, and the concept of having to do this is *completely* foreign to me. I would only expect oil consumption as a measurable amount, requiring topping up.. to happen on extremely old engines with significant wear. I am yet to explain why this is the case, with a relatively "new" engine..

We can solve the oil deposits, use a catch can like the provent 200 and vent back to the intake.

I dont consider venting to the atmosphere acceptable. Im not the biggest tree hugger in the world, but I aim for a solution that stops deposits, maintains the emissions controls in the car AND ALSO explaining the large oil consumption. VTA catch cans only achieve one of these aims, is lazy, illegal and poor engineering. All my opinion, but there you have it, I am a perfectionist.

The 2nd point I have not fully researched. Why are these engines consuming so much oil through the crankcase ventilation system?

The following questions need answering:
- Is there larger amounts of blow by in the Audi engines? (More air volume through PCV, hence more oil loss?)
- If so, why and what can be done about it?
- Is the location of the various connections non-ideal, such as the location of the breather hose being directly in front of the turbo? (On boost, is too much vacuum applied to the crankcase?, pulling too much crank/oil vapours into the PCV system?) Or is the primary oil separator located in a bad choice, drawing in oil droplet rich vapours?
- Is it a combination of all of the above?

I am trying to find an explanation so we know why the cars are drawing so much oil through the PCV system.

Either way, solving the deposits is a case of fitting a catch can. I will use the provent 200 - that looks the best available. Vent back to intake and the deposits should be reduced to virtually non-existant. It is widely accepted on Aus forums that a catch can is the solution to valve deposits and this should be easy to believe as the catch cans are indeed catching oil that would otherwise end up in the intake and just bake onto the intake manifold and valves.

Don't forget - other cars (with even bigger turbos like skylines etc) have ran fine with non-factory higher boost levels and manage to run without consuming vast amounts of oil.. so something in the engine design causing such significant oil loss. Not only would I like to fit a catch can to protect my engine from valve deposits, I would like to know (and possibly address) why the engine is sucking so much up from the crack in the first place.

Steven Oakes
Posted By: Bladecutter

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/19/11 03:28 PM

Why it happens to these turbo direct injection engines is simple:

High Boost Pressure + Rich Air to Fuel Ratio = Gasoline forced past the piston rings, oil control rings, into the oil pan.

High fuel dilution decreases the flash point of the oil, increasing the amount of oil volatility.

High oil volatility means that more oil/fuel mixture is being vaporized, and ingested by the PCV system. This leads to intake valve deposits.

So, you either need to remove the boost pressure from the engine (I can hear the crying from all the Turbo lovers now) to prevent the fuel dilution, or you need to find a way to separate the gasoline from the oil after it gets in there.

The only other choice is not allowing the oil vapor from the PCV system to get into the intake stream. That's the easiest of the three choices.

BC.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/19/11 03:40 PM

The model of RS4 in question is naturally aspirated. wink
Posted By: GordonC

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/19/11 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Steven_Oakes
Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that,


Hi Steven,
A couple of comments in response to your post:
- the thread is about oil concerns with the direct injected , normally aspirated V8. It's quite a different beast to your port injected turbo 4, and the "fixes" and recommendations will not necessarily be the same.

- Your excessive oil consumption is, to be blunt, NOT excessive. Half a litre every 5K km? Nothing. It genuinely is a normal amount of consumption for a gasoline engine, and maybe you haven't owned that many vehicles, or any vehicles from 20 - 30 years ago or older, but if you've never experienced that before then you don't have much experience. That may come across as rude, it's not meant to be, but I'm genuinely saying to you that 1 litre every 10K km is nowhere near excessive.

- "This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use." - sorry, but it absolutely matters what oil you use. The volatility differences in oils is a very significant factor in the amount of oil vapours that will pass through the PCV system.

- "Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that" Well, the oil deposits on the valves is actually the whole point of this thread - it's a direct injection issue, and is by no means unique to VW and Audi.
Posted By: ikolbyi

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/19/11 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By: GordonC
Originally Posted By: Steven_Oakes
Hi All,

I know this is an old thread.. but wanted to contribute. I am from Australia and own an Audi A4 2005.

This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use. Ive owned numerous cars (all port injected though) and none of them consumed oil like my Audi does.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1) Oil buildup on intake valves.
2) Excessive oil consumption.

Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that the engines consume abnormally large amounts of oil. I use half a litre every 5,000 klms, no car I have ever owned used anywhere near that,


Hi Steven,
A couple of comments in response to your post:
- the thread is about oil concerns with the direct injected , normally aspirated V8. It's quite a different beast to your port injected turbo 4, and the "fixes" and recommendations will not necessarily be the same.

- Your excessive oil consumption is, to be blunt, NOT excessive. Half a litre every 5K km? Nothing. It genuinely is a normal amount of consumption for a gasoline engine, and maybe you haven't owned that many vehicles, or any vehicles from 20 - 30 years ago or older, but if you've never experienced that before then you don't have much experience. That may come across as rude, it's not meant to be, but I'm genuinely saying to you that 1 litre every 10K km is nowhere near excessive.

- "This issue is definitely caused by oil ingestion through the intake manifold via the PCV system. It doesn't matter what oil you use." - sorry, but it absolutely matters what oil you use. The volatility differences in oils is a very significant factor in the amount of oil vapours that will pass through the PCV system.

- "Whether you care about oil deposits on the valves or not is one thing, but separate to that" Well, the oil deposits on the valves is actually the whole point of this thread - it's a direct injection issue, and is by no means unique to VW and Audi.


I agree with GordonC comment that the oil does matter, please see my post on this issue looking for feedback on a oil selection: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2236559#Post2236559
Posted By: Steven_Oakes

Re: FSI Engines - Audi RS4 Engine Oil-Related Depo - 04/26/11 11:42 AM

GordonC,

Thanks for the reply.

I dont agree with you however.

Firstly, I understand this is a RS4 topic, but the problem is not unique to RS4 engines. There are numerous examples on the web of RS4s, A4s, TTs with oil deposits covering the intake valves.

What I am suggesting to you is yes, this is a problem related to FSI engines, but the problem is excacebated by the fact that the oil consumption is so high..

This is not a turbocharged related issue for obvious reasons: There are non-turbo Audi engines with this problem (A4 2.0 FSI, R8 with oil deposits and high consumption) and there have been previous to the Audi DI engine other turbo cars that do not have these problems, with higher boost levels (Such as the High power [censored] cars I have owned.. these were not DI though, so obviously will not have deposits but there was NO MEASURABLE OIL CONSUMPTION).

Of course, I have driven cars that use oil. But in these cars there were understandable explanations, in particular high engine milage. I drove a '85 commodore into the 00's and the oil consumption was quite high, so I just used Kmart oil as the engine was to the end of its life. I also drove a 1989 Suzuki from London to Mongolia, and that also used oil because it had 390,000 ks on the clock. In that one, I was using 0.5L every 1,000 or so, understandably!

However, I would understand this on a high mileage engine, but not a new car, especially one with very high machining tolerances. There is enough evidence on the web to suggest that there is a problem right from the start of these engines' lives.. indeed my car is relatively "new" with 70,000 ks. You can agree or disagree with my opinion my engine is "new".

Whether or not you consider my engine as new, the point still stands that this problem doesn't appear over the life of the engine, so this is not wear related.

I dont believe that you can say this is "normal" consumption at all, this is my belief and we will have to agree to disagree on this point.

With the 2.0 TFSI you have the option in the service schedule of a "long life" service.. with a oil change every 30,000 klms. So if you are right, and the engine normally uses 1L/5K klms, then in the space of 30,000 klms the engine has consumed 6 litres of oil.. or in other words, a whole engine full of oil between oil changes.

What would the point of a long life service be, avoiding the need to change the oil, if the engine uses a whole engine load of oil in between the oil change?? This point alone is enough reason to believe there is a design issue.

I've read in places Audi consider 1L/1000 klms "normal", and if this was the case you would use 10L of oil in between the oil change - and this would only be for the standard service interval of 15,000 klms!!! Absolutely crazy.

I have owned a lot of cars, but when I do my comparisons, I do it to the car most similar, ie: a modern turbocharged car (Albeit, non direct injection). I dont have a reason to believe the injection system alone explains the reason there is such a significant increase in oil consumption.

I am suggesting to you that these engines are consuming such a significantly increased amount of oil, that this cannot be compared to a 'normal' scenario where an engine uses maybe 0.5L every 15,000 (being generous there, in reality I have done oil changes where I could barely read on the oil dipstick that any oil had been lost!

I have studied the PCV system in my engine (2.0 TFSI) and have noticed something unusual with the design of the PCV system.. so I am going to be doing more testing but I think it is related! I dont have an RS4 to study, but am more than happy to share my findings.
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