Ester/PAO mix cleans engines!

[TallPaul]

It has been stated/argued on this site that synthetic do and/or do not clean engines. But according to this Lube Tips article by Noria, synthetics do clean engines (at least some synthetics to):

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Ester base oil used alongside PAO base oil in lubricant formulation has excellent natural detergency. In other words, it will clean up varnish on component surfaces as a result of thermal and oxidative degradation of the lubricant.

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See Switch to Synthetics? in Lube Tips Newsletter. It also is in the current LubeTips issue, but I could not find it on the net to link.

 

[surfstar]

M1/Redline mix anyone?

Any other way to add some esters to my M1?

 

[bulwnkl]

No need to mix M1 in with Redline. Redline is already majority ester but with PAO in the base oil mix as well.

 

[vwoom]

I have a case of RL 5w30 procured not to be used purely/solely...but mainly as an "additive" to either my stashes of Supreme/Delo Grp II+ dinos or Grp III Synpower.

 

[Islander]

Regarding the concerns mentioned in the Lube Tips article about switching from mineral oil to synthetics, am I correct in my assumption that the concern only applies where the synthetic is PAO as opposed to a Group III synthetic?

 

[Bill]

Posted by crew219:

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Correct me if i'm wrong . . . but aren't most "ester" oils actually Ester / PAO blends? Thinking Amsoil, Redline, certain Motuls . . . they just have a high percentage of ester in relation to PAO.

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Yes, they are blends, Mobil 1 and Amsoil are mainly PAO with Ester for balancing, Redline is mainly a Ester based oil (with some PAO for balance?), I am not familiar with the other oils.
Terry has mentioned that mixing a Ester based oil with PAO based is not good, the balance is not good, etc.
Mobil 1, Amsoil and Redline have created a good balance when they blend their products for use in vehicles.

Posted by TallPaul:

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So Maxlife with its 15% PAO is a prime candidate for a shot of Redline.

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I wouldn't mix PAO with an Ester per Terry's warnings, I trust what Terry has to say,
I think a PAO or a Ester based will clean by themselves,
if Maxlife has some PAO in its mixtured, I think Valvoline may have put some Ester to balanced out the mixture per the Lube Tips article.

[ January 04, 2006, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Bill ]

 

[den_s]

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Likewise, the PAO tends to cause seal shrinkage and the ester causes seal swelling, so the effects are offset when both base oils are present. It is the ester that can cause problems when one changes from mineral to synthetic.

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Here we go again…. The question #1 when converting from dino to synthetic. Oil companies and Bitog members completely disagree, so who is right?

 

[Curious Kid]

"It is the ester that can cause problems when one changes from mineral to synthetic."

I think it's refering to the cleaning effect. I think I have found in my readings that sludge deposit in an engine is a significant issue in many of the cases for engine failure. So as it has been noted to use caution when making a change to synthetic on an engine that has seen increasing miles/hours of mineral oil use, is to consider the increased likelihood of there being significant sludge deposits that the ester component in the synthetic oil mix to loosen and release into the oil stream. An increase in filter plugging and fine passage way restriction could result.

The "report" makes note of proceeding with caution, and to keep an eye on the condition of the filter - of course not everyone has a filter bypass alarm/indicator

, so it may be justified to change the first few filters sooner than usual. The Auto RX treatment says so as part of the use instructions.

Will a cleaning benefit the operations and longevity of the equipment in question? Will any potential momentary wear increases have less of an impact than having the unit continue to operate in it's current state of cleanliness? Slow to fast. Gentle to harsh. While in operation or offline???

 

[den_s]

quote:

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Likewise, the PAO tends to cause seal shrinkage and the ester causes seal swelling

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Seem like both oils can develop oil lick due to seal shrinkage/swelling. In our case M1 and Amsoil shrinkage., Redline and other ester based swelling. So much conflicting information on this subject...

 

[SSDude]

The cleaning ability of esters is a well know fact. However, it has been stated by some here on the board that M1 no longer contains esters and that some versions of Amsoil do not contain esters. Redline is well known for it scavaging effects.

 

[Bill]

Bob the oil guy performed a test with Mobil 1, and Amsoil along with some other oils, the Mobil 1 and Amsoil have cleaning abilities...

 

[SSDude]

Bob the oil guy performed a test with Mobil 1, and Amsoil along with some other oils, the Mobil 1 and Amsoil have cleaning abilities...

This was a few years ago. The chemistry for both oils have changed.

 

[bruce381]

"I wouldn't mix PAO with an Ester per Terry's warnings, I trust what Terry has to say,"

Hello any good PAO oil will have 10-15% ester for at least 2 resons 1 to solublize the whole formula to stay soluble and to offer some seal swell PAO alone will shrink seals even mobil 1 has esters.

bruce

 

[TallPaul]

I recall there are some good UOAs on this site where Mobil 1 was run with a quart or two of Redline.

 

[Bill]

Posted by TallPaul:

quote:

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It has been stated/argued on this site that synthetic do and/or do not clean engines. But according to this Lube Tips article by Noria, synthetics do clean engines (at least some synthetics to):

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There is a post here from Bob the oil guy a couple of years ago where Bob placed some Valve guides(?) or Valve Seals(?) in different oils and the synthetics did break up the particles (hardened sludge) on the parts.
I do not know why there is a debate whether synthetics do clean a engine or not, synthetics may not clean as well as Auto-RX or Lube Control but some cleaning does happened, that may depend on what kind of deposits are in the engine, etc.

For those who are thinking of mixing a Ester oil with a PAO oil, Terry has warned that mixing a PAO oil & a Ester oil may cause problems and there are post(s) here where Terry mentioned that the UOA was bad because a PAO & Ester were mixed, you will have to do a search to find Terry's references to mixing these two types of oil.

 

[Eiron]

That article seems to support what Frank Miller & **** In Falls Church have been saying all along. Namely, that a certain percentage of included esters in your oil does a great job of gently cleaning & suspending crud, & that you should swap your filter after a relatively short period of time if you're switching from dino to syn.

 

[crew219]

quote:

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For those who are thinking of mixing a Ester oil with a PAO oil, Terry has warned that mixing a PAO oil & a Ester oil may cause problems and there are post(s) here where Terry mentioned that the UOA was bad because a PAO & Ester were mixed, you will have to do a search to find Terry's references to mixing these two types of oil.

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Correct me if i'm wrong . . . but aren't most "ester" oils actually Ester / PAO blends? Thinking Amsoil, Redline, certain Motuls . . . they just have a high percentage of ester in relation to PAO.

Dave

 

[Pablo]

I don't think this is real news. The debate as Bill points out was the rate of cleaning, cost of cleaning, and what grunge level to use a flush, AutoRx, synthetic, tear down, or other cleaning option.

 

[TallPaul]

The way I thought it went was that esters would do some cleaning, but that PAO and Group III would not in and of themselves.

As for rate, yes there were some saying synthetic cleans, but slower. The article seems to indicate that the ester/PAO mix can clean very fast, as noted in the next two sentences of the article:

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When one switches from a typical mineral-based engine oil to a typical synthetic-based oil, the varnish layer will be removed by the ester in the synthetic oil and become suspended.

This suspended material can rapidly clog filters and can block oil flow passageways and lead to component starvation.

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That last sentence seems to imply the cleaning action can be rather significant or fast.

Oh BTW, doesn't Mobil 1 have some ester in its mix?

So Maxlife with its 15% PAO is a prime candidate for a shot of Redline.

 

[bkrell]

Chuck Andrews, a well-respected saab dealer and mechanic attempted to desludge a saab 9-5 (his own, I believe) with 4 short interval changes of M1. He reported back that the M1 seemed to do nothing at all in cleaning sludge. He uses a machine flush on customers' cars if he thinks the engine is not too far gone.

Are the esters in synth the same chemicals that are described in auto-rx?