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Lossless audio music

Posted By: Cujet

Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 09:38 PM

If you have a good sound system and you've never heard about/tried lossless audio you owe it to yourself to audition a lossless recording. The difference is not subtle.

An easy source for lossless recordings is Youtube. Use the search terms "lossless music vinyl" or "lossless audiophile music" or "lossless music".

Searching is not easy, as some Youtube links have 40 to 500 songs on the "playlist" .

The lossless FLAC stuff seems like a great way to get original quality to your equipment digitally, with no loss. So much of it is a real treat.

Here is one that is wonderful, cranked up loud, on a great stereo system:



Posted By: Cujet

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 09:45 PM

A fun link with a bunch of different music.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfM00ncplOQ8mT4C2HWF8m2NCbjzHRaDG

Posted By: Skippy722

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 10:08 PM

Problem is YouTube does compress their videos/music. However, a lossless copy uploaded to YouTube will still sound far far better than a lossy version.

I can’t really tell a difference in the car between lossless and lossy, but with my Sennheiser HD 280 Pro’s the difference is clear as day.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cujet
An easy source for lossless recordings is Youtube. Use the search terms "lossless music vinyl" or "lossless audiophile music" or "lossless music".
I hate to disappoint you, but youtube audio is not lossless. The original that a user uploaded may have been lossless, but once it gets converted by Youtube and ready for others to see, the audio would have already become lossy.

And the fact that you weren't able to discern the difference just proves the point that a high bitrate lossy MP3/AAC sounds as good as lossless format to majority of folks. smile

https://www.h3xed.com/web-and-internet/youtube-audio-quality-bitrate-240p-360p-480p-720p-1080p
https://support.google.com/youtubemusic/thread/338369?msgid=348540
https://appuals.com/why-converting-youtube-to-320kbps-mp3-is-a-waste-of-time/


If you want lossless, get a TIDAL or Amazon Music HD subscription.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Problem is YouTube does compress their videos/music. However, a lossless copy uploaded to YouTube will still sound far far better than a lossy version.



Yes, Youtube does alter the file a bit, seems not to matter. It's still superb and clear. Try it on a good system.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/23/20 11:58 PM

Aging Audiophile Ken here.

Youtube is a very heavily compressed, lossy file comparable to a mid bit rate MP3 file.
It was recently 128kbs mp4 AAC.

More listenable with open music production without a lot going one

I like poking around listening to guys vinyl rigs to hear differences between phono stages and TT and cartidges and stylus shapes.

Even though I cant hear much above 7khz any more - there is still a lot to be hear from the upper mids on down.

Often the diff is great enough to hear in the compressed file.

Now, This guy has a nice upper midfi rig

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yYbtXAUEEc

the next guy is a Brit with a great vinyl system with a broadcast rim drive TT, top Graham Slee phono stage and nice cart and stylus.

Those rims drive really maintain a good momentum and pace v. even a good belt
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:27 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ay3fB7SnrM


Bob Wood is at it again!


Shelter 5000 cartridge
CTC Classic 301turntable with SME M2-12-R tonearm
Graham Slee Accession MC phono amp w. Enigma 1 power supply
Lexicon I-O 22 USB audio interface
Twisted Wave audio editor
Posted By: Errtt

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:35 AM

I understand gear has come a long way, but I just can't get away from my ol systems.
I rotate my gear on a fairly routine basis (every few months) and right now what's in is a custom built 2A3 tube amp, JVC QL-A7 TT... oh wait!... not all of my TT cartridges are old. Oh well...
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:41 AM

Another Bob Wood system:

Man I like that Otofon SPU cart!


Sonny Rollins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unt...XGV08VWc2d6vGA-lT5&index=16&t=0s
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Errtt
I understand gear has come a long way, but I just can't get away from my ol systems.
I rotate my gear on a fairly routine basis (every few months) and right now what's in is a custom built 2A3 tube amp, JVC QL-A7 TT... oh wait!... not all of my TT cartridges are old. Oh well...



2a3 nice.

You using an efficient paper coax in an infinite baffle box?

or maybe a University or Altec 604 co-ax?

i worked for bell labs for a couple decades,, I missed grabbing the Western Electric westrex 300B tube amps from the auditorium when they "upgraded" it to garbage equipment.

I didn't have the room in my apartment for the A7 voice of the Theaters smile

- Ken
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Problem is YouTube does compress their videos/music. However, a lossless copy uploaded to YouTube will still sound far far better than a lossy version.



Yes, Youtube does alter the file a bit, seems not to matter. It's still superb and clear. Try it on a good system.



Yeah, man I've been poking around youtube for a couple years some real good stuff out there
a real treasure trove.

High Five!

- Ken
Posted By: dave123

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:08 AM

I’d just like to know what makes a great system its a interesting subject.
Posted By: JHZR2

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:44 AM

Thanks for reminding me of the joy of playing a Pink Floyd album through.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by dave123
I’d just like to know what makes a great system its a interesting subject.


Well, my system certainly is not "great", at best, it's acceptable and fun to listen to. It's down on power (125wpc) and really needs 600wpc to drive my (very power hungry) speakers.

I know what I like and what sounds great to me. I like lots of clean power. I like tight sounding floor standing speakers in sealed enclosures, with silk dome tweeters and proper equalization to account for the natural low frequency roll off. Coupled with a sealed sub.

What I actually have are Polk RTia9 speakers which are floor standing, but they are ported, don't have any bass at all, and are certainly not tight sounding down low. Bass drums don't hit hard, they sound muddy. But at least they were not terribly expensive and the sub mostly makes up for the lack of bass.

Technics 1210 MK5 turntable. Works pretty well. It's not audiophile grade, but it's robust, silent and won't generate feedback in my room.
Posted By: dogememe

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 03:26 AM

Lol YouTube audio is very compressed... So just because what was uploaded was lossless doesn't mean it is now that it's on YouTube.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by dave123
I’d just like to know what makes a great system its a interesting subject.


Put simply: Good gear. I have a "great" set of speakers, I have a "great" amp. But they aren't together because my "decent" speakers sound better in our big room (living room) than them and are far more tolerant of being fed material that isn't of the best quality. Of course what constitutes great/good/acceptable...etc is all relative. My main speakers are a set of Paradigm Monitor 11's, which were the top speaker in Paradigm's lowest tier of speakers, they have (or had) two tiers above them. They are decent speakers in the sense they are clear, produce tight sound, excellent imaging, very full range and go incredibly loud. They are a little too warm if you are a purist; they colour the music a bit, but with what I listen to, this isn't a bad thing. My "great" speakers are a set of vintage B&W 802 S3's, which were their top of the line speaker. Their currently equivalent, the 802 D3 are $22K a pair, which is actually quite reasonable compared to other speakers, including their new Nautilus series, which are $60K. These are true reference-grade speakers and are what were used at Abbey Road. They are incredibly unforgiving when fed garbage; you'll hear every imperfection as their sound reproduction is absolutely superb, so they will equally delight when fed something of quality.

The amp driving the Paradigms is an older Bryston 4B which I had completely refreshed at Bryston, who are local. It's a dedicated 2-channel amp 270W/channel @ 8ohms. I used this to drive the B&W's originally and will likely pick up a 4B3 at some point and move the 4B back to the B&W's.

Pre-amp for analog content is a PS Audio unit, which has a lovely phono stage. My record player isn't anything special, just an old Aurex (Toshiba) SR-Q200 direct-drive unit which sounds surprisingly good. When I had that setup hooked up to the B&W's it was... interesting. It was very easy to discern recording quality and it made some stuff hard to listen to. I have an original UK pressing of Metallica's LOAD album which is absolutely brilliant; the best sounding vinyl I own, it absolutely came alive through the B&W's, the detail, the clarity, the depth, it was incredible. My repress of Ride the Lightning sounded like garbage. Flat, harsh...etc. You play the same stuff through the Paradigms, while LOAD still sounds incredible, Ride the Lightning sounds good, as does MoP and some other stuff. So that's why I have things configured the way I do.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 04:12 AM

Since you guys are name dropping...
Creek integrated, Monitor Audio Silvers and Velodyne sub.
I think I had a high end Sony CD player; don't remember.
For the $$, this is a superb sounding audio system.
These speakers reproduce the human voice better than anything I have ever heard...
Gotta have a clean signal.

Unfortunately I only use the Monitor Audios nowadays on the home theater.
Maybe I should plug something back in...
Posted By: Pew

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 05:03 AM

I wish I had my own place or a house not attached to a condo, I'd have a rocking system like you guys. Until then, I'm very content with my Sennheisers 598SE and Creative Zx listening on Tidal and Google music.
Posted By: Alfred_B

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:55 PM

My main gear is Fisher 504 from 1973. Had a couple of Marantz es but I like the Fisher. It's nothing like the beauty of the Marantz designs, though, but the sound is better

And yes, the lossy v. Lossless is quite noticeable.

I do FLACs
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 12:55 PM

^^agree YouTube is not lossless, no way but Im sure better then the standard stuff.

Interesting subject, I thought I was one of the few who really cared about the "downgrading" of audio sound since the invention of MP3s
At the same time, to truly have lossless takes a commitment and money.

There are some streaming services now that are close to lossless, maybe much in the same way as "lossless" Youtube type sound. I almost went with one but decided to go with a free couple month test of Apple Music, definitely not close to CD quality but I dont know, maybe its in my head, certainly sounds better then your standard MP3 or free music streaming.
Im just getting back into music (for lack of better words)
I was going to go with Tital High Fidelity Streaming but their dysfunctional website (was not off to a good start)would not give me a free 3 month offer that I had and tried to give me one month and why I ended up with Apple Music for a free 4 month trial.

Dont trash me, I am not saying Apple Music is close to CD or lossless but I will say I do strongly think is is a cut above your typical free streaming and will only get better in time if competition heats up they have the money to improve it. I have researched the subject and Apple does offer a slight edge over most others and form what I understand a tie with even more others. The only other choice after that seems to be Tital and well, Im not doing it.

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

I have found some of the low cost ones that do not advertise low bass sound more neutral then much more costly!
Im too embarrassed to tell you what brand I just bought for on ear. Just trying them out for fun but may keep them.

I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

Gosh, go back a couple decades and the true experts in audio would freak out over how sound is degraded and manipulated from what the artist produced.

Posted By: Donald

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:12 PM

When your my age you probably cannot tell.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Donald
When your my age you probably cannot tell.


I "hear" you ! Hey, what discouraged me for a few years after being into audio my whole life was ringing in my ears after an ear infection gone wild a decade back. (frustrating part was I did see a doctor before this happened)
Anyway, in the past, I guess I got used to the ringing to the point where it doesnt bother me anymore, at one point, in dead quiet with headphones on it would drive me nuts and gave them up trying.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.
Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500. They were a little too flat for me as I do like a little bit of bass emphasis, but it sounds like they may align well with your listening preferences. They're about $60 new. They are open back though.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


As for in-ear, I'd recommend TinAudio T2. I think they were around $30 when I got them. They may be a little higher nowadays.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
^^agree YouTube is not lossless, no way but Im sure better then the standard stuff.

Interesting subject, I thought I was one of the few who really cared about the "downgrading" of audio sound since the invention of MP3s
At the same time, to truly have lossless takes a commitment and money.

There are some streaming services now that are close to lossless, maybe much in the same way as "lossless" Youtube type sound. I almost went with one but decided to go with a free couple month test of Apple Music, definitely not close to CD quality but I dont know, maybe its in my head, certainly sounds better then your standard MP3 or free music streaming.
Im just getting back into music (for lack of better words)
I was going to go with Tital High Fidelity Streaming but their dysfunctional website (was not off to a good start)would not give me a free 3 month offer that I had and tried to give me one month and why I ended up with Apple Music for a free 4 month trial.

Dont trash me, I am not saying Apple Music is close to CD or lossless but I will say I do strongly think is is a cut above your typical free streaming and will only get better in time if competition heats up they have the money to improve it. I have researched the subject and Apple does offer a slight edge over most others and form what I understand a tie with even more others. The only other choice after that seems to be Tital and well, Im not doing it.

I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.

I have found some of the low cost ones that do not advertise low bass sound more neutral then much more costly!
Im too embarrassed to tell you what brand I just bought for on ear. Just trying them out for fun but may keep them.

I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.

Gosh, go back a couple decades and the true experts in audio would freak out over how sound is degraded and manipulated from what the artist produced.



B&W produces headphones, they sound like they should be right up your alley.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.
One thing about this, how can we know for sure what sound the artist truly intended? Short of being present in the recording studio when the album was recorded, how can we tell?

On the other hand, when you go to a concert, you experience thunderous chest pounding amounts of bass that most home audio systems or headphones can't even come close to replicating. Alas, concerts are meant for general entertainment and less for accuracy/critical listening, so that isn't really a valid point of reference either, IMO.

My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.
Posted By: Alfred_B

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 02:33 PM

--
My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.
--

Exactly. I wouldn't want to reproduce a Slayer concert in my living room.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
I am having an issue finding low cost on ear headphones and also in ear plugs with a NICE, FLAT FREQUENCY RESPONSE.
Seems no matter what the cost, high or low, EVERYTHING is enhanced bass, drives me nuts! I do not want the headphone makers altering the sound of the artist, to me, all it does is screw things up BUT I do understand, that is what Joe Public wants or the darn things would not sell.
Not sure what your definition of "low cost" is, but you may want to check out Philips SHP9500.


A friend at work got those and the SQ and build is excellent for the price.

If you don't want to spend over 35 bucks I would recommend the Samson SR850 with stock velour pads.

Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 03:02 PM

Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Really Killer vinyl playback and not a stupid 50 thousand dollar idiot-phile rig either,
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Yup, good stuff. Nice setup.


BTW, here is another HQ track that is commonly used to audition speakers in audiophile community. I'm not much of an audiophile, but I always play it (the FLAC version, not the Youtube version) on any new speakers I get, along with a handful of other well produced tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h6MoF7HLA

Posted By: Pew

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
I seen mention of Sennheisers in here, Im a fan of them, current over the ears pair I have are getting on in years, forgot model but look at me as more of a value investor of electronics. With that said honestly the over ear are too large for what I want them for as well, but one thing they do not do is overpower the midrange with bass, I just think its almost a lost cause trying to find an honest flat response headphone anymore if the company wants to stay in business, the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.


I've have [had] 5 pairs of Sennheisers and the over-the-ear ones seem to be the most consistent with quality. I started with the HD558 and gave those away when I got a pair of HD598s for home and I currently use a pair of HD428s at work. Their earbuds I've tried were the Momentums which met their untimely demise when I left the earbuds dangling out my car door on the way to the gym. Replaced those with CX300s which I returned after a week (HORRIBLE sound.)

Have you looked at Klipsch yet? Their quality is on-par with Sennheisers from my experience with a nice warm mid/highs and no boomy lows either.
Posted By: Gillsy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Since you guys are name dropping...
Creek integrated, Monitor Audio Silvers and Velodyne sub.
I think I had a high end Sony CD player; don't remember.
For the $$, this is a superb sounding audio system.
These speakers reproduce the human voice better than anything I have ever heard...
Gotta have a clean signal.

Unfortunately I only use the Monitor Audios nowadays on the home theater.
Maybe I should plug something back in...


I had a pair of Monitor Audio's. Don't recall the model (tweet, midbass midrange, and bass). Well constructed, and easy on the eyes with small footprint. Those were replaced with Revel F32's. Those are the finest speakers I've owned. My Hegel H80 was sold, and replaced with Cary Audio pre, power, and HDCD player. I now have a solid wall of sound with no left or right. The salesman talked me into Yamaha Musicast. I can do internet radio, or stream Spotify at 320 bit. Looking forward to one day having a dedicated music room, and trying some Magnepans. Boy are they transparent. Rock on!
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 09:57 PM

I've heard the Performa F30 they a decade or 2 ago, they were a bargain at about 3k a set.

A bit postmodern > odd looking though.


The the The M20 were the best medium sized bookshelf I've ever heard - absolutely transparent to the source.

Hear through a ML integrated with a nice Wadia one box CD as source. ( sadly no good TT setup at the time)

I'm not usually a fan of tower speakers due to the problematic and audible wave termination and reflection at the floor


[Linked Image]
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/24/20 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?

Yup, good stuff. Nice setup.


BTW, here is another HQ track that is commonly used to audition speakers in audiophile community. I'm not much of an audiophile, but I always play it (the FLAC version, not the Youtube version) on any new speakers I get, along with a handful of other well produced tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-h6MoF7HLA



Not Bad, Listenable, Does sound a bit "slick" to me.

At least it wasn't Keith Dont Go! I've heard that to death.

I like stuff that can dig deep into my old favs thet wern't particularly well recorded

like moody blues and Yes without turning to mush or strident.

Here is a decent vinyl replay of

YES

Ive seen all good people on a well sorted upper midfi system


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9cQJ2_cck

( Thank You Israel Quezada for the up load!

My question is:

are the recorders ( wood flutes) at 1min 28sec real or taped and played on a Mellotron?


Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
the public demands bass, no matter how inaccurate it is from the artist.
One thing about this, how can we know for sure what sound the artist truly intended? Short of being present in the recording studio when the album was recorded, how can we tell?

On the other hand, when you go to a concert, you experience thunderous chest pounding amounts of bass that most home audio systems or headphones can't even come close to replicating. Alas, concerts are meant for general entertainment and less for accuracy/critical listening, so that isn't really a valid point of reference either, IMO.

My personal approach is to not chase after "what the artist intended" since I really don't know how to find that, but instead to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us. Home audio environments are affected by so many factors (speaker response, speaker placement, amps, DACs, room layout, room treatment, etc.) that trying to achieve truly flat response would be an exercise in futility.


Quattro, Pew, Arco, Alfred ...

First, thanks for those posts regarding neutral sounding ear pieces. No sense in me restating why for others, its all above in these threads.

"as the artist intended"
Here is my answer to all those that posted about my comment.

First question would be, if you are not searching for equipment that can reproduce the sound the "artist" intended then why not go to the dollar store and pick up some headphones?
Its super easy to make cheap or super expensive equipment that is not capable or reproducing sound as it was recorded. If not, then the whole purpose of high fidelity is lost.

You need a standard or that $200 headphone is just as good as the $7 one.

The standard is electronic equipment being able to reproduce what is recorded, if it can not, then it is inferior.
If your equipment can not do that, then you are actually listening to sound/music from cheap overpriced garbage or the way the equipment maker intended NOT the artist.
Now with that said, what do you think the "for profit" equipment maker will do?

They will reproduce music with the cheapest possible components at the highest possible profit for the general population who has no idea what so ever what they are buying or trying to accomplish, as long as it sounds good to them, it doesnt matter if it is "what the artist" which they are paying for "intended.

There has to be a standard and the standard is what it is that comes out of the studio! Then, after that, you can do whatever you want with it and Taylor it more to your liking but if you never know the "truth" of how it is supposed to sound, then what the heck are you buying?

So much of the population is being dumbed down by corporations making massive profits over this garbage they are forgetting about the purpose of the music itself and how it should sound. if I see one more headphone with the words " Extra Bass" I am going to throw up. *L*
For gods sake, if you want "extra bass" turn up the bass on your equipment.

I just want to hear what the recording is, I do not need equipment manufacturers deciding what I hear from the music I pay for.

With all the above said, yes, I know full well the upper class and honestly anyone who wants to spend the money can have true truthful unadulterated music from some fine companies equipment out there, much of them pretty much marketed as studio headphones, monitors etc.

I mean, even the poptart audio reviewers that are online have no idea what they are talking about, what they are listening too and can not rely on anything they say and most of them just trying to generate clicks to purchase products., drives me nuts *L*

_______
Ps, call me crazy but gosh darn, the $20 wired Apple earbuds that came with my iPhone sound better then a lot of this crap. Here I am looking to spend up to a modest $150 or so IF, IF I can be assured of an accurate sounding WIFI on ear or in ear headphone with good battery life, thing is, I know they are out there, some suggestions in here but I do want an ON ear or IN ear, most likely an in ear simply because I have number of on and over already and will make do until I find the holy grail.

Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 05:05 PM

I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?



I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above.

Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low.

The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?



I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above.

Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low.

The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.


My B&W's were designed and used as studio reference monitors. They definitely have a different sound (as I described earlier in the thread) from many other speakers I've listened to. I've never owned headphones that have sounded like those speakers, though I'm sure some exist. I've not tried the B&W headphones, so perhaps they deliver on that front?
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?



I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above.

Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low.

The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control.

As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat?

Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete


Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.


That's a very important point. The volume level at where things sound "good" is well above what is typically reasonable listening levels where other people may be present and there are perhaps conversations taking place.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?



I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above.

Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low.

The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control.

As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat?

Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?



I did not see your question. But posted enough about it above.

Answer= By having equipment that is capable of playing back, when presented, a flat frequency response at all frequencies from high to low.

The vast majority of consumer headphones have a doctored frequency response to what the manufacturer thinks will sell best, it also allows products to be cheaply made.

My question was more in reference to home stereo systems rather than headphones. Headphone response is easier by the manufacturer to control.

As I wrote earlier, even if you find equipment capable of delivering truly flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, all bets are off once you place that equipment in the comfort of your home due to various factors such as room gain, standing waves, speaker placement, etc. Do you use REW and a calibrated mic to measure your actual in-room frequency response at the MLP and then apply EQ to make it flat?

Also, for most of us, flat response doesn't sound very good at lower listening levels due to the way our ears function - our perception of very low frequencies and very high frequencies is weaker than our perception of midrange frequencies at lower volumes, so often times we benefit from boosting these low and high frequencies at lower volume levels - the function known as "loudness" in the olden days.


Here is why you are wrong, with due respect.
You don’t buy faulty cheap equipment, unable to properly reproduce a consistent level output across the sound spectrum when the source recording calls for it because your room will be different.
Every room is different in every home or arena, you then adjust to your liking and acoustics, even though most screw that up..the key is that the equipment is capable.

Look at it this way. You want to adjust your system for your room but your overpriced cheap product is already deficient in the range you want to adjust?
Nothing, you will make bad even worse.

Yes I was talking headphones in all my threads but to the contrary it’s harder or just as hard to get the headphones or plugs into a flat response vs a speaker.

Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/25/20 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Here is why you are wrong, with due respect.
You don’t buy faulty cheap equipment, unable to properly reproduce a consistent level output across the sound spectrum when the source recording calls for it because your room will be different.
Every room is different in every home or arena, you then adjust to your liking and acoustics, even though most screw that up..the key is that the equipment is capable.

Dude, relax. Where did I state that one should buy "faulty cheap equipment."?

But when you say that you "adjust to your liking" you are basically saying the same thing I stated earlier: "to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us." But you still have no idea if after "adjusting to your liking" you are hearing exactly what the artist intended or not. That was my only point.

Quote
Yes I was talking headphones in all my threads but to the contrary it’s harder or just as hard to get the headphones or plugs into a flat response vs a speaker.

The headphones or IEMs are a closed system (assuming you get a proper seal against your ear canal which is not always easy), unaffected by the room, its layout, sound reflections, etc., and therefore such environment is easier to control and design for, IMO.

Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?


I don't think you can know. How would you?
I think it is impossible to reproduce a 100% accurate sound. Close, yes. But is is a copy.
There are just too many variables.

I say enjoy your sound system and music.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Anyone listen to the Bob Wood links I posted above?



Yes. Sounds good, not my style of music.

Right click on the video for "Nerd" information. Seems the codec is MP4a 40.2 (140)

The other is OPUS 251 and seems to sound better.
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?


I don't think you can know. How would you?
I think it is impossible to reproduce a 100% accurate sound. Close, yes. But is is a copy.
There are just too many variables.

I say enjoy your sound system and music.

Exactly.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Here is why you are wrong, with due respect.
You don’t buy faulty cheap equipment, unable to properly reproduce a consistent level output across the sound spectrum when the source recording calls for it because your room will be different.
Every room is different in every home or arena, you then adjust to your liking and acoustics, even though most screw that up..the key is that the equipment is capable.

Dude, relax. Where did I state that one should buy "faulty cheap equipment."?

But when you say that you "adjust to your liking" you are basically saying the same thing I stated earlier: "to obtain the sound I personally enjoy, and that will be different for each of us." But you still have no idea if after "adjusting to your liking" you are hearing exactly what the artist intended or not. That was my only point.

Quote
Yes I was talking headphones in all my threads but to the contrary it’s harder or just as hard to get the headphones or plugs into a flat response vs a speaker.

The headphones or IEMs are a closed system (assuming you get a proper seal against your ear canal which is not always easy), unaffected by the room, its layout, sound reflections, etc., and therefore such environment is easier to control and design for, IMO.



Relax? Hey, dude, I am perfectly relaxed.
I made some posts in here and you asked me pointed questions, I answered them, your debating me. If you dont think I am relaxed, I can only assume you do not like my answers, so chill.

Its all, good, whatever works for the person who is listening to their music, as long as it brings them enjoyment.
We are going in circles with this discussion, some will agree and some wont, except to say I am right. :o)

Ill try one last time, if I cant explain it to you right, nothing more that I can say, I spent enough time on it.

A good system will output the music (signals) that was recorded by the artist and the studio, completely unmanipulated/unaltered. Its is simple as that. How can that be hard to understand?
If a manufacturer of headphones is advertising things like "Extra Bass" then it is selling a product that alters the sound to what the manufacturer thinks should be reproduced, its then, people listen to that music, not ever knowing, what it really sounds like, heck, even the instruments sound is altered but most of all the vocals in the vast majority of these devices alter the singers tone of voice. Now if that's someones thing, its fine but its not the artists voice.

If you purchase equipment with words like "extra bass" or select equipment that has been doctored by the equipment maker then you can never know the "sound" including even the vocals the artist intended. Almost all lower end consumer equipment now, in the headphone/earphone market manipulates the sound to what the public perceives as "nice".
Almost all high end equipment stays true to the signal and by that, one means the sound exiting the transducer when fed a broad signal across the entire audio spectrum will output that signal evenly as close to unaltered as possible across the entire audio spectrum. This ensures it is not exaggerating one part of the spectrum over the other skewing the music to something it is not.

Why does this matter?
Simple, you are hearing the sounds and vocals of the artist in a more accurate form, the way it was intended.
So how do you know what you personally enjoy if the sound you hearing is not the sound that was recorded but is a sound, manipulated by the equipment manufacturer?
You have no idea what you are missing if that is the case.

So much low end consumer stuff skews the artists voice to the point, people have no idea how they really sound, some people may not like the sound based on this but if they heard the true sound, unadulterated they may not feel that way.
If you alter the sound yourself, at least you had a reference point of the actual sound and vocals before you start to change the actual real life tone of someones voice!

When you allow equipment makers to deliver products like Extra Bass, you have no idea what you are supposed to be hearing, its all marketing for profits own cheap stuff as it is a lot harder to make accurate equipment and therefor slightly more money but not all that much.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by Quattro Pete
I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?


I don't think you can know. How would you?
uote]
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
[quote=Quattro Pete]I restate my question which you are yet to answer:. How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?


I don't think you can know. How would you?
I think it is impossible to reproduce a 100% accurate sound. Close, yes. But is is a copy.
There are just too many variables.

I say enjoy your sound system and music.


Impossible for 100%, Close yes.
Anyone who understands sound and how its reproduced will understand the effects vocals and instruments of equipment that inaccurately reproduces it, this is rampant in the low end consumer market and my posts in this thread in relation to headphones.
But the bottom line is on a accurate system, deep vocals will sound deep, mid vocals with sound mid with no coloration from the low end and higher vocals will sound as well.
A piano will sound like a piano and sax will sound like a sax, with as little coloration as possible. To obtain these results on low end headphones is extremely hard because they are marketed and skewed towards bass which much of the public thinks is high end, that is completely false.

If one does not have a system, one just needs to find a high end store and listen. Many people do not know or understand about inaccurate vocals and instruments and some dont care, its all good, Ill agree with that, but there is no denying it.


Feel bad, unintended hi-jack of this thread. I can tell you one thing!!!! THE OP KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! Just read the post!
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/26/20 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
I made some posts in here and you asked me pointed questions, I answered them, your debating me. If you dont think I am relaxed, I can only assume you do not like my answers, so chill.
You never answered my original question: "How can you know that what you are hearing at home is or is not what the artist intended?" The answer is, you can't, unless maybe if you're a good friend of said artist.

Quote
Its all, good, whatever works for the person who is listening to their music, as long as it brings them enjoyment.
I am glad we finally came to an agreement on this. smile

Quote
A good system will output the music (signals) that was recorded by the artist and the studio, completely unmanipulated/unaltered. Its is simple as that. How can that be hard to understand?
I am not arguing that point at all. All I was trying to say is that those perfect/unmanipulated signals are then subject to so many external factors when it comes to home audio systems (not headphones), that by the time that sound reaches your ears it may not be anywhere close to "flat" and not anywhere close to "what the artist intended." You would have to personally speak with the artist and let them play it for you in their studio to have an idea of what he/she intended. They may also intended for you to play it at certain volume. If you play it at lower volume, certain frequencies will be under-represented, given how human ears work.


Quote
If a manufacturer of headphones is advertising things like "Extra Bass" then it is selling a product that alters the sound to what the manufacturer thinks should be reproduced, its then, people listen to that music, not ever knowing, what it really sounds like, heck, even the instruments sound is altered but most of all the vocals in the vast majority of these devices alter the singers tone of voice. Now if that's someones thing, its fine but its not the artists voice.
I never stated anything to the contrary. All I stated was that it is easier for headphone manufacturer to design a product with flat frequency response because they get to control the entire listening environment and don't have to deal with in-room response issues. Naturally, many manufacturers deliberately design V-shaped response curves because they believe this will result in increased sales.
Posted By: dubber09

Re: Lossless audio music - 01/27/20 11:53 PM

To me, majority of time I listen to music is while I drive and since I don't use headphones then music quality doesn't have to be perfect due to road and other noise and inability to 'submerge' into it.
When I do it at home I use headphones most of the time due to sound level I like (to catch smaller details) and not to disturb wife or others, so I can listen to the LPs, CDs and tapes and skip FLAC.
FLAC is great for archival purposes only the way I personally see it.
Looking at album cover and holding it does add to the experience for me.
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