Subaru Ascent - my quick observations

[nthach]

Last year, a friend's mom(whose family are my parent's neighbors) decided to drop her name in the hat for then in-vitro Subaru Ascent after deliberating between a Pilot or Highlander. 6 months ago the local dealer called her in to ask her about options. She got the wagon last weekend.

I was able to take out for a quick spin and to me, it felt and handled like any other Subaru but I did notice a definite power jump, while it's no WRX/STI with a hotter FA20DIT/EJ255 it certainly felt like it can go when commanded unlike the 4-cylinder Legacy/Outback and Forester. The FA24DIT is rated for 260HP and 275ft-lb. The Highlander and Pilot do make more but those are also 3.5L NA V6s. The CVT was transparent. I didn't get to take it on the freeway but around town there wasn't any obtrusive rubberbanding or lag. There is torque vectoring, but it seems like it's based off the ABS/ESP system. The rear diff looks like standard Subaru fare, I didn't see any additional electrical connectors that would have tipped me off to a multi-plate clutch like the SH-AWD implementation of Honda's VTM-4.

The interior is probably one of Subaru's better efforts, the materials while some did look or feel cheap certainly felt better than Toyota/Ford spec. The doors closed with a solid feeling thump, not the nice, satisfying German thump of a pre-2000s Mercedes product but better than the typical Japanese one. The Legacy/Outback have in higher trim levels the more "luxurious" of interiors in their class and the Ascent felt like a step up from the usual Honda/Toyota fare. This was a 7-passenger model so there was a center aisle to access the 3rd row like a minivan but the 2nd row seats do slide forward like a coupe. The back row looked like a tight squeeze. As typical for a car-based SUV/CUV there isn't too much cargo space if the 3rd row is used.

I feel this will be a hit for Subaru - families that had a Forester or Outback will now have a "natural" upgrade path. It's certainly a much better effort than the old B9 Tribeca. Yes, I will say Subaru has become "norm-core" and in a way, the new Volvo while the latter is trying too hard to snipe down Mercedes/Audi/BMW in the luxury market. Now if Subaru sticks the Ascent motor into a WRX and tweak it to hit 320+HP in stock form...

 

[Old Mustang Guy]

Does this have the V6 from the Outback?

 

[nthach]

Nope, 2.4L twin-turbo DI H4. Subaru except for a brief time in the 1980s-1990s with the Justy has always used boxer engines.

 

[CKN]

The "Subaru Zombies" will buy it. Nobody else will with that 4 cylinder motor.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: CKN
Nobody else will with that 4 cylinder motor.

I'll say this - that turbo 4 is pretty powerful and certainly a lot more livable than the ones used by Mercedes and BMW(who merely dropped the Mini Cooper S 2.0L into the porky X1). I think Subaru, despite the problems on the WRX/FXT with head gaskets and pistons has done a good job making their turbo models feel a bit transparent to the driver.

 

[AZjeff]

Is this a Subaru product or something else re-badged and Subarized?

 

[maxdustington]

I wonder how far they can take a flat four cylinder engine power wise. I thought the whole point of a flat engine was center of gravity and having to pull the mill to change the HGs. As their vehicles get bigger with higher centers of gravity a flat engine makes less and less sense.


Originally Posted By: CKN
The "Subaru Zombies" will buy it. Nobody else will with that 4 cylinder motor.

Originally Posted By: nthach
I feel this will be a hit for Subaru - families that had a Forester or Outback will now have a "natural" upgrade path. It's certainly a much better effort than the old B9 Tribeca. Yes, I will say Subaru has become "norm-core" and in a way, the new Volvo while the latter is trying too hard to snipe down Mercedes/Audi/BMW in the luxury market. Now if Subaru sticks the Ascent motor into a WRX and tweak it to hit 320+HP in stock form...

They are trying to cash in on their popularity now by trying to break into new markets, they are becoming mainstream. I'll bet they release a larger SUV with a conventional engine design within 7 years. The flat Subaru motor will go the way of the VR6 once people forget about it. I fear they are going to follow other brands: Establish a reputation for quality and reliability, then cash in on it with mainstream models, then have their quality drop off and lose their identity in the process.

Forester/Outback is to the 2010s what the Toyota Corolla was to the 2000s, the ultimate normie/appliance car. The Kool-Aid is strong on this board, too (not you OP).
VW used to have VW zombies back when they were quirky too, now they are mainstream and were competing on price (!) recently.

 

[Kira]

Twin turbochargers in a family hauler? Let me get off this train.

 

[carguy996]

A local dealer was offering test drives of the Ascent over the weekend so I stopped to take a look. The test drive vehicle was a fully loaded Touring with the window sticker just over 48K. First impressions were the outside was nicely done, conservative but attractive, looks like a large Outback really. Inside, I had some mixed reviews. The seats were a little too firm and there is an odd secondary screen at the top of the dash I didnt care for. The main screen is large, bright and crisp. The screen at the top of the dash showed fuel economy, radio, vehicle info or would oddly display the front camera. The screen is far away from the driver so made that an odd choice to display the front camera. Also, the heated steering wheel switch was oddly sticking out of the steering wheel in the same place where vehicles used to put the cruise switch. That switch felt it could easily break. Performance was ok, nothing insanely fast, but adequate for around town, the CVT was one of the better ones I have experienced, better than our Nissan's. At 48K, Subaru needs to offer their excellent H6 3.6R motor, and to make that motor better, put a small turbo on it and that would really enhance the feel of the Ascent. I think the middle model is going to sell the best, seems to have the best feature per dollar in the upper 30's low 40's/

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: Old Mustang Guy
Does this have the V6 from the Outback?

Originally Posted By: nthach
Nope, 2.4L twin-turbo DI H4. Subaru except for a brief time in the 1980s-1990s with the Justy has always used boxer engines.


yeah, Their 6 cyl are Flat 6/H6/boxer(how ever you want to refer to it) layouts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Subaru_engines#Six_Cylinder

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington
I wonder how far they can take a flat four cylinder engine power wise. I thought the whole point of a flat engine was center of gravity and having to pull the mill to change the HGs. As their vehicles get bigger with higher centers of gravity a flat engine makes less and less sense.

The old 2.5l PFI turbo in the WRX STI is about 305HP/290ft-lbs, I would think they could do better with a 2.4l DIT if they decide to push it.
Somebody on here suggested that the less than incredible power numbers for the Ascent might reflect the use of 87 octane, which would probably be a selling point for something that is more of a people mover than a zippy fun car (93 is recommended for my FA20DIT with 91 considered acceptable, manual warns that anything less down to 87 will likely result in poor performance but will not cause damage).

Originally Posted By: Kira
Twin turbochargers in a family hauler? Let me get off this train.

It's actually a single twin scroll turbo, not two separate turbos.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: carguy996
At 48K, Subaru needs to offer their excellent H6 3.6R motor, and to make that motor better, put a small turbo on it and that would really enhance the feel of the Ascent.


that would technically require some re-engineering of the EZ36. It was never designed with boost in mind.

that's not saying that people haven't turbo'd them, Mighty Car Mods Super Gramps for example. Tuned, running E85, with around 8-10 psi makes 277.1Kw(371.6BHP) at the wheels, and runs in the 11's at the dragstrip(1/4mi)...

but much more boost, and they're in danger of grenading the the engine.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: maxdustington

The flat Subaru motor will go the way of the VR6 once people forget about it. I fear they are going to follow other brands: Establish a reputation for quality and reliability, then cash in on it with mainstream models, then have their quality drop off and lose their identity in the process.

Forester/Outback is to the 2010s what the Toyota Corolla was to the 2000s, the ultimate normie/appliance car. The Kool-Aid is strong on this board, too (not you OP).
VW used to have VW zombies back when they were quirky too, now they are mainstream and were competing on price (!) recently.





Toyota is taking a laissez-faire approach with Subaru - let them do their thing, but we'll provide assistance when asked and vice-versa. Even though Toyota doesn't totally control Subaru, at least they aren't pulling a Nissan, Hyundai, GM or VAG on them with creative rebranding(but the FT86/BRZ is an exception, built by Subaru, Toyota provided the engine control and tranny and both brands use different interiors to a point). Nissan also took a hands-off approach with Subaru, but it was GM that was trying to force Subaru to walk down the plank.

If Toyota really wanted to cannibalize Subaru, the Ascent could have been the [censored] child of the Highlander. Subaru is using their own platform instead of TNGA and there's still quite a bit of the old Nissan/GM influence in their switchgear and interior. As a matter of fact, you can see some Nissan-sourced switches alongside Toyota ones in a modern Subie. Rumor in the Subaru world is that the new Crosstrek Hybrid will be using the Prius Prime's battery pack/charger and I assume the Lexus GS450h/LS600hL(also used on the JDM Crown Hybrid/Athlete) hybrid drive unit and inverter.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: carguy996
At 48K, Subaru needs to offer their excellent H6 3.6R motor, and to make that motor better, put a small turbo on it and that would really enhance the feel of the Ascent.

The EZ36D doesn't need turbos. It's a porky engine that can use Toyota's help to make more power - I think it's good for 250HP but Toyo's own 2GR-FE makes 268-270hp and around 300 in Lexus/Sienna/new Camry form with D4-S.

Maybe add on D4-S, free up the intake/exhaust flow and it should be good for 270-280HP?

I've never driven a Legacy/Outback 3.6R, but a friend has a Outback 3.0R with the EZ30D and it's a nice motor. Reminds me of a Porsche.

 

[gathermewool]

Twin-scroll, not twin-turbo.

If you haven’t driven a twin-scroll turbo 4, then please refrain from comparing it with other single-scroll turbo 4s and V6s. While an STI (EJ257, btw, not 255) will lag and then SURGE when the turbo finally spoils, the FA20DIT has minimal lag. At highway speeds, boost is instantaneous.

Not saying it’s better or worse than the Highlander or Pilot, just that, based on my experience with the FA20DIT, the FA24DIT should be a pretty lively engine, and I suspect not many would be left wanting a V6, all else being equal.

 

[Brigadier]

Wow. Just looked up the Ascent on the Subaru website. Looks just like my Santa Fe.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Twin-scroll, not twin-turbo.

If you haven’t driven a twin-scroll turbo 4, then please refrain from comparing it with other single-scroll turbo 4s and V6s. While an STI (EJ257, btw, not 255) will lag and then SURGE when the turbo finally spoils, the FA20DIT has minimal lag. At highway speeds, boost is instantaneous.


I was under the impression the FA24DIT was a TT design, thanks for correcting me. Does a twin-scroll turbo replace the complexity of a VGT that the Germans have been keen to adopt?

 

[555]

Flat engines are different than boxer engines.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Wow. Just looked up the Ascent on the Subaru website. Looks just like my Santa Fe.


I guess subaru doesn't waste alot of money on styling! I don't think that's a bad thing as they look pretty decent IMO, but its amazing how similar the Outback and Crosstrek look when coming or going on the hwy. And I also mistook my friends new Impreza sedan for a Legacy.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Twin-scroll, not twin-turbo.

If you haven’t driven a twin-scroll turbo 4, then please refrain from comparing it with other single-scroll turbo 4s and V6s. While an STI (EJ257, btw, not 255) will lag and then SURGE when the turbo finally spoils, the FA20DIT has minimal lag. At highway speeds, boost is instantaneous.


I was under the impression the FA24DIT was a TT design, thanks for correcting me. Does a twin-scroll turbo replace the complexity of a VGT that the Germans have been keen to adopt?


No worries.

Regarding variable geometry turbos (VGT), they're way more complex than twin-scroll turbos and I don't know enough about VGTs to compare them, to be honest.

Twin vs Single (short version): complementary cylinders feed one of the two connected hot-side wheels, downstream of the engine exhaust outlet (exhaust header). An equal number of complementary cylinders feed the other wheel. The two hot-side wheels, which are connected and a part of the same turbo housing, spin the cold-side compression wheel, resulting in boost.

A single-scroll turbo will have all of the cylinders enter the same manifold, then into one inlet port to the hot-side of the turbo (instead of two separate inlet ports on a twin-scroll.) Even if tuned out with manifold geometry (ensure the lengths of each exhaust outlet is at the ideal length to reach the turbo), there will be competing exhaust pulses.

The difference between the two is in the efficiency of the turbo and exhaust geometry. With competing exhaust pulses, a single-scroll turbo will utilize less of the energy in the exhaust gas, possibly have more restriction, and also result in more turbo lag. So, a twin-scroll turbo will be more efficient, boost more quickly, and result in less fuel wasted. The cost is, well, increased cost and complexity. I don't know how much more durable a single-scroll turbo might be, if at all, because it's likely based on who built the turbo, and how it's used.

Again, compared to my previous WRX and STI, the FXT spools quickly and is most noticeably less laggy on the highway. While cruising at highway speeds, the turbo is typically sitting between -2# and 1# of boost and reach positive (or more positive) boost nearly instantaneously; whereas, the previously-mentioned single-scroll-powered turbo Subies would remain at much lower steady-state boost and take significantly longer to spool.

Not really a great apples-to-apples comparison, because the WRX had a relatively small turbo and only 224HP, while the STI sacrificed low-end performance to achieve 305HP & ft-lbs at the top end.

I will be very curious to see whether Subaru puts the FA24DIT into the next STI, and whether it shares the same characteristics as the FA20DIT. I foresee people complaining about Subaru sticking with nearly the same HP/Tq as the out-going EJ257, but I'd be glad of it, IF it came with said reduction in lag, which would make the area under the curve much greater than the EJ257, resulting in much better performance, even if it didn't impress so much based on the numbers game. They could also use a larger twin-scroll, with more lag, but a higher maximum output. This would probably make the STI feel rocket-liftoff fast upon onset of boost AND result in a higher max numbers. As it was, I was able to elicit yelps from passengers in my '08 STI by shifting early into 2nd and then mashing the go pedal, resulting in a shocking amount of thrust as boost past into the positive and climbed rapidly to 14.7#. I remember my first test-drive, wherein I experienced this and it reminded me of when Playstation racing games first came out with the nitro/boost blur effect. I laughed out loud (literally!) the first few times I did this, but was also slightly scared and paced myself until break-in was complete...