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Wired Routers

Posted By: fraso

Wired Routers - 10/01/18 05:48 PM

Earlier this year, I was having trouble with mobile devices connecting to my home WiFi and often my desktop computer (connected via Ethernet) would seem to not connect to the internet. Being in a rural area, I've got wireless (radio tower) internet and the router connects to a switch inside the house. I have a D-Link DAP-1650 as the wireless access point, which is connected via Ethernet to my switch . My ISP checked my connection and it found no issues and none of the other customers using this tower were reporting any issues either. They told me that the only way to test the router is to bypass the router and connect directly into the modem to see if there is any difference. My ISP does not like D-Link and recommended any router made by Asus or TP-Link.

Since I was using an old D-Link EBR-2310 router located in a detached garage beside the tower, it was a bit inconvenient for me to try bypassing the router. I found that Amazon had a cheap wireless router for $20 (TP-Link N300 that appeared to have really good reviews so I thought I would try it instead. The TP-Link N300 was a big improvement in WiFi connectivity but my download speeds are verrry slow. This morning, I've been trying to download a large file and the download speed is around 20-40 KB/s and the process has already failed several times. I used to get 5-10 Mbps when the EBR-2310 was working better. Sometimes, rebooting the N300 improves its performance.

I thought I would go back to a wired router because I my DAP-1650 works fine in the house and I can use the N300 as an outside WAP. Having checked around, it looks like there are very few wired (ie, no WiFi) routers for the consumer market.

Any advice about getting a good router for home use?
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 06:17 PM

I should come down to visit you from the Hammer and help you. grin2

Those $20 routers IMO would be an issue, they aren't full duplex on the wired ports. If you look they will be missing pins where the ethernet cables go and this would restrict bandwidth. Further they really are for light cable / dsl packages and minimal traffic.

You want something more memory and a faster processor. All TP-Link routers offer much better range I have found over D-Link etc. I think you just picked the wrong one. Get something from their Archer Series. Like this one...
https://www.amazon.ca/TP-Link-AC1900-Smart-Wireless-Router/dp/B00PDLRHFW/

Also it could depend on what channel you were broadcasting on and if there was interference on whatever channel it was using. Sometimes the auto-channel feature in routers isn't the best and it's better to perform a wireless site survey and pick the best channel that isn't in use and there is no noise on. Forcing it to use a channel you decide versus the auto-scanned channel can make a tremendous difference.

The last is always make sure the firmware is up to date on the router when you first take it out of the box. It's possible this was creating the problem and there is a fix but it hasn't been applied because the router spent a lot of time on the shelf sort of thing before you purchased it and it has outdated firmware with bugs.

Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:01 PM

What is your internet speed supposed to be?
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:22 PM

The problem I'm having is with the wired connection speeds. With the EBR-2310, I was getting over 5 Mbps when it was working well. I haven't checked the WiFi speed but it seems quick enough.

I just checked the firmware version and it looks like my router has the latest firmware installed. I don't think it was on the shelf very long because it appeared to be a popular item that already had several thousand reviews when I got it and has over 17,000 reviews right now.
Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:25 PM

I would check your cables and the switch. You could bypass the switch. They haven't made any routers that have half duplex ports for years. Any cheap router will be able to pass the speeds that your internet is, so has to be something other than the router.
Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:26 PM

I assume your wireless AP has DHCP server turned off?
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:31 PM

Go to speedtest.net and run a speed test using multiple servers in your area and see what the best download/upload is.
Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:35 PM

That isn't going to troubleshoot his wired connections?
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:45 PM

He started by saying he had problems downloading a large file so it will troubleshoot that. If his wired connections are the problem they will also show up in this test because he depends on that connection for the downloading.
Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 07:49 PM

WIFI seems to be working fine. Obviously a wiring or switch problem.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 08:01 PM

Try a different ethernet cable for starters, you could also try bypassing the switch and seeing if that yields the results you are looking for. I wouldn't suspect the router if wireless speeds are fine, since they are both passing through the same device.
Posted By: eljefino

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by tmorris1
I assume your wireless AP has DHCP server turned off?


Yup, this. Sounds like a conflict.

I presently have two TP-link routers-- one in my basement with the wifi turned off that has DHCP duty and runs a couple wires to important wired things in my house. The other is only a wireless access point (at a better altitude for reaching everything) and has no routing or DHCP duties. They run DD-WRT firmware, FWIW, but you could do this with the stock version.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by eljefino
Originally Posted by tmorris1
I assume your wireless AP has DHCP server turned off?


Yup, this. Sounds like a conflict.

I presently have two TP-link routers-- one in my basement with the wifi turned off that has DHCP duty and runs a couple wires to important wired things in my house. The other is only a wireless access point (at a better altitude for reaching everything) and has no routing or DHCP duties. They run DD-WRT firmware, FWIW, but you could do this with the stock version.


Conflicting IP addresses don't create speed deficiencies, they generally produce non-connectivity for one of the two devices.
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 11:26 PM

I have the DAP-1650 set up as a WAP so it should not have DHCP duty.

I did the speed.net (3 tests) just now and got:
Ping: 19 / 89 / 28 ms
Download: 2.75 / 3.68 / 3.40 Mbps
Upload: 11.18 / 8.85 / 9.08 Mbps

I then checked my DAP-1650 but was not able to find it on the network. I reset it and reconfigured it as a wireless access point. I can see it now but it didn't make any difference to my file download speed (as reported by Firefox).

My house uses a foil vapour barrier so the TL-WR841N has a very low signal strength in the house so DAP-1650 provides the WiFi connection.
Posted By: eljefino

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Conflicting IP addresses don't create speed deficiencies, they generally produce non-connectivity for one of the two devices.


Running two is more than twice as complicated as running one. LOL

OP should check everything out.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by fraso
I have the DAP-1650 set up as a WAP so it should not have DHCP duty.

I did the speed.net (3 tests) just now and got:
Ping: 19 / 89 / 28 ms
Download: 2.75 / 3.68 / 3.40 Mbps
Upload: 11.18 / 8.85 / 9.08 Mbps

I then checked my DAP-1650 but was not able to find it on the network. I reset it and reconfigured it as a wireless access point. I can see it now but it didn't make any difference to my file download speed (as reported by Firefox).

My house uses a foil vapour barrier so the TL-WR841N has a very low signal strength in the house so DAP-1650 provides the WiFi connection.


Has your connection always been that biased toward the upstream side?

Also, have you rebooted your ISP's wireless antenna to see if that has an impact?
Posted By: mk378

Re: Wired Routers - 10/01/18 11:54 PM

Unplug all of your routers and test directly at the CPE cable with a laptop. I assume the ISP tech has already done this though.

Do you need Internet in the garage? If not you should just run a cable direct to the house and have all your equipment in there.

The cable from the garage to the house is suspect. Even "outdoor" cat5 should it get any water inside, its performance is ruined. If you can get good performance setting up the equipment in the garage, but not in the house, the cable is likely bad. Or run a temporary cable.

If the DAP can be configured to route, it should outperform the old router. Also in many cases the CPE at the top of the tower can be configured to also serve as a router, you can connect multiple devices and APs with only dumb switches.
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 05:24 PM

I put the router in the detached garage because that building is between my 70' internet tower and my house. The ISP uses my tower as a repeater and has both a high speed antenna that communicates with another network tower as well as a couple of antennas that provide wireless internet service to other local users. All 3 antennas are connected to a switch mounted in a box on the back of my garage. From this switch, I have a cable that connects to the router in my garage. Because my router is connected to the high speed antenna via the switch, I should have much higher connection speeds than the other customers using this tower.

When I built the garage, I connected it to the house with a buried PVC conduit. I ran the same outdoor Ethernet cable that goes to the antennas on the top of the tower from my router to the distribution panel in the house via the conduit.

To check the various devices, I fired up my ThinkPad T30 (my newer laptop died this spring) and found that when I download that same large file, my download speed increased to 200-400 KB/s at both the router and the tower switch. I then went to the Ethernet distribution panel in my house and found that connecting directly into the cable coming from my router also gave me a 200-400 KB/s download speed.

I have 2 8-port switches at my Ethernet panel: a DLink DSS-8+ and a Linksys EZXS88W. When I plugged my laptop into one of the ports in the EZXS88W, my download speed dropped back down to the 20-30 KB/s range. Moving the router cable to a different port seems to have gotten my other devices to now have faster internet connection speeds.

IIRC, my upload speeds have generally been at least as fast as my download speeds. With the port change at my router, with speedtest.net I just got:

Ping: 16 / 80 ms
Download: 7.07 / 5.60 Mbps
Upload: 7.99 / 3.29 Mbps
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 05:31 PM

So it sounds like the Linksys either has a bad port or may be on its way out.
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 06:39 PM

The slow port on the Linksys made me think I need a new switch. I thought I would get a 16 or 24 port Gigabit switch to clean up my panel. Would this switch be suitable?
TP-Link TL-SG1024D 10/100/1000Mbps 24-Port Gigabit Switch

I asked my ISP about the speed discrepancy and he thought that the speeds are likely regulated from where I was getting the file or the software used to download it. If speedtest.net is reporting 5-10 Mbps, should I also be seeing this in practice at my PC?

Since my router seems to be working properly and not slowing my connection, I'll continue using it. However, the TL-WR841N doesn't have as much outdoor range as I would like. Does anyone have any experience with this AP?
Wavlink XQ-570HN2
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 07:01 PM

I'm not a huge fan of TP-Link, I'd recommend a Netgear ProSafe as an equally affordable option instead, however I know a lot of folks on here love their stuff.
Posted By: Vikas

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 08:42 PM

why in the world you need *giga*bits switch? what is your link to the rest of the world?
Posted By: tmorris1

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 09:26 PM

He said less than 10mbps, but almost everything new is gigabit. There is no router around that can't handle that speed. That is why it had to be a hardware or wiring problem
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 09:30 PM

Obviously, a 100 Mbps connection to the internet is sufficient for my internet service. I thought that, since the cost of a Gigabit switch is not much more than the cost of a 10/100 switch, I would have a faster performing switch for my home network.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/02/18 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Vikas
why in the world you need *giga*bits switch? what is your link to the rest of the world?



Because there's basically no price hit going Gig-E over 10/100, particularly with cheap unmanaged stuff.
Posted By: Subdued

Re: Wired Routers - 10/03/18 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by StevieC
I should come down to visit you from the Hammer and help you. grin2

Those $20 routers IMO would be an issue, they aren't full duplex on the wired ports. If you look they will be missing pins where the ethernet cables go and this would restrict bandwidth. Further they really are for light cable / dsl packages and minimal traffic.


Since the cheapies are only 100mb they only use 4 conductors. It's not an issue that they only have 4 pins. Number of pins has nothing to do with duplex or no duplex.

You run into duplex issues when one end is configured for auto/auto and the other end is set to 100/full. the auto side doesn't get the negotiation information it needs from the hard coded end, so it falls back to half duplex.

both ends need to be auto/auto or 100/full. Don't mix speed/dulex.
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/03/18 01:37 PM

StevieC earlier recommended the TP-Link Archer C9 AC1900 Smart Wireless Router. I have my router mounted on the wall with the cables plugging into ports on the side of the router and I see that that the Archer C9 has ports on the back.

Going back to my original question, since I don't need a WiFi router in my garage and I can easily repurpose my TL-WR841N as a WAP, would this be a good alternative?
TP-Link TL-R600VPN Gigabit Broadband VPN Wired Router
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Wired Routers - 10/03/18 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Subdued
Originally Posted by StevieC
I should come down to visit you from the Hammer and help you. grin2

Those $20 routers IMO would be an issue, they aren't full duplex on the wired ports. If you look they will be missing pins where the ethernet cables go and this would restrict bandwidth. Further they really are for light cable / dsl packages and minimal traffic.


Since the cheapies are only 100mb they only use 4 conductors. It's not an issue that they only have 4 pins. Number of pins has nothing to do with duplex or no duplex.

You run into duplex issues when one end is configured for auto/auto and the other end is set to 100/full. the auto side doesn't get the negotiation information it needs from the hard coded end, so it falls back to half duplex.

both ends need to be auto/auto or 100/full. Don't mix speed/dulex.



The reason I said what I did is because my friend that lives in a rural area (Delhi for the locals) has Microwave internet and his modem has a Gigabit connection to his Router. I just wanted the best for the OP in case his situation was the same.
Posted By: Vikas

Re: Wired Routers - 10/03/18 07:37 PM

Delhi is a HUGE city; you are the first person to call Delhi as "rural"


(Ya, I know about the snow storms in Miami too :-)
Posted By: Vikas

Re: Wired Routers - 10/03/18 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by fraso
StevieC earlier recommended the TP-Link Archer C9 AC1900 Smart Wireless Router. I have my router mounted on the wall with the cables plugging into ports on the side of the router and I see that that the Archer C9 has ports on the back.

Going back to my original question, since I don't need a WiFi router in my garage and I can easily repurpose my TL-WR841N as a WAP, would this be a good alternative?
TP-Link TL-R600VPN Gigabit Broadband VPN Wired Router

Why not give it a shot? Once you have it running good as AP, you can take the plunge and change its SSID to match your main router and make the hand over seemless.
Just keep few apps handy to know the BSSID of the AP your device has connected to when things do not work the way you expect.

I spent few weeks trying to nail couple of APs down to blanket my house with reasonable coverage after discarding a buggy AP/router unit.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: Wired Routers - 10/04/18 01:48 AM


Originally Posted by Vikas
Delhi is a HUGE city; you are the first person to call Delhi as "rural"


(Ya, I know about the snow storms in Miami too :-)



Delhi, Ontario is a farming town and it's not huge at all. Maybe in area but it's not like a city like Toronto. grin2
Posted By: Quattro Pete

Re: Wired Routers - 10/04/18 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vikas
Delhi is a HUGE city; you are the first person to call Delhi as "rural"

Not that Delhi. smile

Delhi, Ontario
Posted By: Vikas

Re: Wired Routers - 10/04/18 02:43 PM

I wonder how many kids join Miami University before realizing that it is NOT in *that* Miami!
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/11/18 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Subdued
Since the cheapies are only 100mb they only use 4 conductors. It's not an issue that they only have 4 pins. Number of pins has nothing to do with duplex or no duplex.

You run into duplex issues when one end is configured for auto/auto and the other end is set to 100/full. the auto side doesn't get the negotiation information it needs from the hard coded end, so it falls back to half duplex.

both ends need to be auto/auto or 100/full. Don't mix speed/dulex.


My TL-WR841N is spec'd for 10/100Mbps Ethernet ports. The router does in fact have 4-pin ports. My old EBR-2310 is also spec'd for 10/100Mbps (IEEE 802.3u 100Base-TX Fast Ethernet & IEEE 802.3 NWay Auto-Negotiation) but has 8-pin ports. My two 10/100 switches also have 8-pin ports.

I thought that that full-duplex requires 8-pins and 4-pin only permits half-duplex communication.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Wired Routers - 10/11/18 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by fraso
Originally Posted by Subdued
Since the cheapies are only 100mb they only use 4 conductors. It's not an issue that they only have 4 pins. Number of pins has nothing to do with duplex or no duplex.

You run into duplex issues when one end is configured for auto/auto and the other end is set to 100/full. the auto side doesn't get the negotiation information it needs from the hard coded end, so it falls back to half duplex.

both ends need to be auto/auto or 100/full. Don't mix speed/dulex.


My TL-WR841N is spec'd for 10/100Mbps Ethernet ports. The router does in fact have 4-pin ports. My old EBR-2310 is also spec'd for 10/100Mbps (IEEE 802.3u 100Base-TX Fast Ethernet & IEEE 802.3 NWay Auto-Negotiation) but has 8-pin ports. My two 10/100 switches also have 8-pin ports.

I thought that that full-duplex requires 8-pins and 4-pin only permits half-duplex communication.


No, you need all of them for Gig-E, 100 will work fine at full duplex.
Posted By: Vikas

Re: Wired Routers - 10/11/18 06:58 PM

I had never come across 4-pin ethernet cable. the only 4-pin cable was the 2-line telephone one. half of the responders here never even seen a telephone cable :-)

Couple of weekend ago I was at friends house and a 2 year toddler of guest was asking his dad what was the thingy with corded cable hanging from the wall!
Posted By: PandaBear

Re: Wired Routers - 10/11/18 07:09 PM

So the Ethernet connection between the 2 routers goes through a wiring panel? Did you make sure the wiring are connected to the right "pair" as they were?

The reason I ask is, about 18 years ago, I bought a cable from ebay and the seller crimp the wiring pair wrong, so instead of the 1-2, 3-6, 4-5, 7-8 pairs end up being 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, and one pair is not twisted as expected. My network would go 10Mbps but not 100Mbps. I research online and found that, and then re-crimp it myself and the problem went away.

If you can borrow an ethernet switch to test, you can use that to rule out the router or the cable. Narrow it down to which component and go from there.
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/12/18 02:20 PM

My Ethernet distribution panel is a a ChannelPlus H236 enclosure with ChannelPlus H628 data termination hubs. This panel is in my basement and I've run Cat 5 cable to Leviton RJ45 wall jacks in conduit throughout my house. The hubs and wall jacks are color-coded so it's hard to connect them incorrectly. Having checked my connections in Windows previously, I've regularly connected to the network at 100 Mbps.

I only have one router in operation. I have Cat5 (has foil, might be 5e) cable from the tower switch to my router and that same cable from the router to one of my switches. The cable from the router to the switch is terminated with a modular plug at both ends. When running the Cat5 cable, I used a punchdown tool to connect all 8 wires in the hubs and wall jacks.

What I would like to know is clarification about Subdued's comment about cheap routers having 4 pins rather than 8. My old D-Link EBR-2310 and DIR-601 both have 8-pin Ethernet ports but my new TP-Link TL-WR841N only has 4-pin ports.

Do good 10/100 routers have 8-pin ports?
What implications does having a 4-pin Ethernet port have compared with an 8-pin port?
Would my old D-Link 10/100 routers have had better Ethernet performance than my new TL-WR841N?
Posted By: fraso

Re: Wired Routers - 10/20/18 12:56 AM

From what I've able to find so far, the number of pins in the port doesn't matter for a 10/100 router or switch because the connection only uses 4 wires.

Since one of my old switches has a bad port, I thought I would upgrade to a 16 port gigabit switch (TP-Link TL-SG1016D). I've ordered a wired gigabit router (TP-Link TL-R600VPN) to match the gigabit switch. I'm happy with my TP-Link TL-WR841N router and I'm going to repurpose it as a WAP in a better location than where it's mounted now as a router.

Thanks for the great advice. After getting my connection speed sorted out, I did a write-up about my experience in case others were in a similar situation: Home Networks
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