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New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold.

Posted By: SirTanon

New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/09/18 10:51 PM

I have to say, I'm pretty skeptical about just about all of the over-the-counter oil additives that claim lower friction, stick to metal, etc.. but this video definitely got me believing MotorKote could actually work. Actually seems like it could be a legit product.

Enjoy.

Posted By: Mainia

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/09/18 11:05 PM

Has anyone done a oil analysis on this stuff? Just a guess.....could it have Boron in it??
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/09/18 11:22 PM

Not on Motorkote itself, but mixed in PP many moons ago. People say it should kill TBN based on chlorinated product, but it was nearly double my other UOAs on PP pre-GTL. It was my UOA around 45k total miles if you search my posts.
Posted By: Trav

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/09/18 11:35 PM

I know this is published by Amsoil but it has not been taken down and AFAIK Amsoil has not been sued over it. If this is correct I wouldn't put that stuff in the same room with an engine.

http://thebestsyntheticoil.com/pdf/TSB%20MO-2010-04-01_chlorine_oil_treatments.pdf
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 01:04 AM

Trav, I read that stuff too, and was part of the reason I never reused it again; but, one shortcoming of the Amsoil test (and no followup) is that there have been no subsequent tests of Motorkote & it's chlorine content.

If it's any indication, my iron number was actually among the lowest of any UOA I had while MotorKote was in the sump, and there were no spikes or change in trends in my UOAs after using MotorKote. I don't know if that's a confirmation of MotorKote or not, just sharing the info. In the only time I ever used additives B2B, the UOA after had MOS2 in it, which did not show quite as good of numbers. FWIW


Posted By: Hammehead

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 01:24 AM

He used to do quick motion vid to the whole testing. Now the 30 minutes and one hour test happens in less than 10 seconds ... w/o filming. That was kindda strange editing, IMO.
Posted By: Trav

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 02:00 AM

I would still like to see any updated info before putting it in an engine, not that I would use it but for others that may, I think that would be good to know.

I don't know much about it but I suspect chlorine in those amounts does its damage slowly but surely, Hopefully Mola can chime in.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 02:26 AM

Does chlorine have adverse effects in modern engine internals like bearings and such? It may have worked in years past when everything was iron and steel. Now there is a lot more aluminium and alloys present.
Posted By: Linctex

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 02:47 AM

Has any other lab besides Amsoil tested Motorkote for Chlorinated paraffins?
Posted By: BrocLuno

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 04:57 AM

Chlorinated compounds can turn acidic over time. Be careful and monitor the pH with test strips. If you see a change, change the oil.

Most basic over-based add paks will keep up with it for some time. I would not try to run it beyond say 6,000 mile OCI's ...
Posted By: Trav

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Linctex
Has any other lab besides Amsoil tested Motorkote for Chlorinated paraffins?


Long thread here, be your own judge.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=265439&page=all

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1893624

Edit: Added link.
Posted By: Kibitoshin

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 09:06 PM

In one of the links, user Turtle268 mentioned a Cummins engine failure due to the additive and how MK has almost 28% chlorine content, posted Feb 2010.

I wonder its because of that this article popped up on Apr 2010:
http://thebestsyntheticoil.com/pdf/TSB%20MO-2010-04-01_chlorine_oil_treatments.pdf

Went into a deep rabbit hole researching MK since I wanted to give it a try. Saved some money there.
Posted By: Trav

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/10/18 11:06 PM

This product seems sketchy as it gets, the more you research it the worse it gets.
Posted By: Ducked

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/11/18 12:57 AM

I watched it. Bit ashamed of myself.

First bit confuses wear and friction. No water-only control in the wash-off wear test, which would have been easy to do, but otherwise seems fairly OK.

Then it pretty much degenerates into the usual engine abuse. Engine survives an hour with this stuff and water.

So what? Would it have survived an hour without this stuff and water?

Who knows? (no control).

Who cares?

Not me. I don't want to put water in my crankase, because its a stupid and pointless thing to do.
Posted By: Hammehead

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/13/18 03:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Ducked
I watched it. Bit ashamed of myself.

First bit confuses wear and friction. No water-only control in the wash-off wear test, which would have been easy to do, but otherwise seems fairly OK.

Then it pretty much degenerates into the usual engine abuse. Engine survives an hour with this stuff and water.

So what? Would it have survived an hour without this stuff and water?

Who knows? (no control).

Who cares?

Not me. I don't want to put water in my crankase, because its a stupid and pointless thing to do.


I agree, its useless totally out of envelope testing.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/13/18 04:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Trav
I know this is published by Amsoil but it has not been taken down and AFAIK Amsoil has not been sued over it. If this is correct I wouldn't put that stuff in the same room with an engine.

http://thebestsyntheticoil.com/pdf/TSB%20MO-2010-04-01_chlorine_oil_treatments.pdf



That study is still valid for any OTC additive that contain chlorinated paraffin's. I am not surprised the Cummins engine failed since it has higher combustion temperatures and the potential to create higher levels of acids.

Whether or not MotorKote or any of the other OTC additives mentioned in the Amsoil article currently contain chlorinated paraffin's is anyone's guess, but they are definitely a (edit-mod)-shoot because one does NOT know their exact chemical composition and their potential effects on engine components.
Posted By: Trav

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/14/18 02:58 AM

Thanks for posting that, scary stuff thinking your engine bearings are being damaged by corrosive chemicals bottled by unscrupulous companies.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 04/15/18 01:55 AM

BTW mods, here's a definitive and valid definition for the word I used above:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/[censored]

Definition of [censored]
: something (such as a business venture) that has an unpredictable outcome

SO we will use alternative terminology here:

Quote:
Whether or not MotorKote or any of the other OTC additives mentioned in the Amsoil article currently contain chlorinated paraffin's is anyone's guess, but these are definitely additives that can have an upredictable outcome or risky result, respectively, since one does NOT know their exact chemical composition and their potential effects on engine components.
Posted By: Ddieselsmoke

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 09/21/18 10:17 PM

I found myself looking at a bottle of Motorkote today, after listening to a guy at work saying he puts it into everything.
Any long term users of the stuff in here? Anyone pull bearings and done an inspection?
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 09/28/18 10:52 AM

You know I have been reading these Motorkote threads and I notice a few things about the naysayers
1) they never tried Motorkote
2) they say it doesn't work because it contradicts their beliefs(like how manufacturers would buyout the product if it really worked.. right)
3) they say its full of chlorine (one even said they have proof) but I've still to this day seen NO PROOF of chlorine
4) they say the timkin test is a fraud .. well they ran it w/o the one-arm.. its suspended weights not being touched duh (no one-arm)

Well the supporting evidence seems to be:
1) Ive not seen any complaints about Motorkote corroding their engine over 20 years in this internet age you;d think someone would have
2) no FTC lawsuits against Motorkote (unlike many other real snakeoils)
3) over 80% 5-star positive raving reviews
4) incredible experimental results (see for yourself on youtube)

Like I said .. no evidence contradicting Motorkote claims except lots of fear-mongering heresay

Oh another thing, in this age where manufacturers are pushing 10-20,000mile oil change intervals and "life-time" oils (yea right) , do you really think they have the motivation to keep your engine running after sale and after their 3-4 year warranty? They'd rather your engine die 5-8 years after sale and after warranty so they can sell you another.
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 09/28/18 11:22 AM

Thanks for joining to bring us that, “insanecoder”. What’s your connection to the product?
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 12:12 AM

I just bought it to try it.. theres my connection?
Wanna call Motorkote and recommend me a job there?
Do me a favor please Mr suspicious..
for all the naysayers.. read me points again..

show me a shred of proof Motorkote doesnt do what it says
OR
any evidence Motorkote messed up someone's engine
OR
any evidence there IS chlorine in that product

waiting.. (yep .. sound of crickets)

Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 12:35 AM

People aren't required to prove that it doesn't work. Those making the claims are required to provide that it does work as advertised.
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 12:44 AM

well what is being claimed may be circumstantial

how about the explicit claims (by some) that it
1) contains chlorine
2) messes up peoples engines

well prove that it does any of the above two?

ok so if its accepted the naysayers claims of chlorine etc are moot then it goes back to square one..

which is that its an additive which claims to protect against friction
and 80%+ of those who used it seem to feel that it does what it claims
pretty good odds dont you think?
all those long running engines.. just a coincidence I suppose
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 01:45 AM

I have no idea what its makeup is. Chlorinated compounds have been mentioned here many times, but I've never seen an analysis on the product nor had one done.

As for the product claims, circumstantial is being kind. There's another thing called confirmation bias. A lot of people who throw useless additives into their engines claim it does whatever it said. 80% of people can believe in all kinds of things, but that's not evidence. Now, has any testing been done to demonstrate friction modification by the product in an internal combustion engine?

As for long running engines, are we having engine failures that people need to rush to additives to save them? We've run many engines into the hundreds of thousands of miles using ordinary, conventional 10w-30 Quaker State over 6,000 mile intervals. What could we have possibly gained by an additive? By what you claim, the logic should be that Quaker State conventional used over double the OEM OCI will categorically make an engine outlast the rest of the car. Not one of them used Motorkote, so failure to use Motorkote also helps engines last longer.

There's nothing lacking in a fully formulated motor oil. And if there were, it almost certainly won't be found in the additive aisle.
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 01:48 AM

Oh, here's something about the Chlorine, from Wearcheck. That looks like chlorine to me.
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 02:02 AM

I am not debating that the product claims are hard to prove without real experimentation of which I have not seen up to now .. maybe it exists somewhere I dont see it
I am simply saying the negative side or naysayers are saying the same thing in the opposite vector and also without any evidence as well.

Meanwhile so if both sides have no concrete evidence to prove their side's argument, you fall back on experiential data
Experiential data being only valid from those who actually experienced the product (ie.. USED it)
Right off then the naysayers's inputs need to be negated as theyve no experience with the product

From experiential testimony, it seems a preponderance of it is positive (over 80%).. alot of the rest is neutral rather than negative..
now if the product had chlorine in it, you'd expect to see over 20 years alot more negative feedback about engines corroded into malfunction.. not seen any
well so is it all in their head?
maybe who knows.. but it is positive

btw what wear-check.. send a link please

actually sorry I need to say that there have been some experimentation on usage of motorkote in abnormal trying conditions on youtube and its fairly phenomenal
although its not exactly scientific but phenomenally its a positive
any phenomenally negative experimentation results on youtube? not that I've seen..
Posted By: StevieC

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 02:04 AM

Welcome to the Amsoil club. LOL There are even UOA's here showing excellent performance for what can be measured and it gets treated the same way as MotorKote.

If it works for you that's all that matters. There will always be that group that thinks otherwise and can never provide proof but will jump at the opportunity to cut up a product most of them have never used or claimed to have used and had some sort of bad results. Their loss.


Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 02:13 AM

I've just got my order in.. my bottle is coming this week
so I plan to blackstone a before-after and over several iterations to see what its doing to be sure
so I'm not exactly putting faith into it either I want to see results in terms of
whether I am getting any efficiency gains at all which should show in RPM, operational temperature, vibration
as far as the most important goal (for me) is engine life so I want to see a baseline blackstone and then look @ with motorkote in over time
but I have to say the fear mongering based on nothing but negative belief is wholly unscientific and keeps people from maybe getting a product which may benefit their engine investment
Posted By: StevieC

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 02:17 AM

Looking forward to the results... thumbsup
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 02:26 AM

already have my first black blackstone bottle in hand smile next oil change in 4000mi
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/02/18 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
Meanwhile so if both sides have no concrete evidence to prove their side's argument, you fall back on experiential data
Experieential data being only valid from those who actually experienced the product (ie.. USED it)
Right off then the naysayers's inputs need to be negated as theyve no experience with the product

Unfortunately, that's not even experimental data, but one data point. It's anecdotal. The average user doesn't have the credentials or time to properly evaluate the one data point. Even if he does, it's just that - one data point. I don't need to smoke to know that smoking is bad for me, even if it's no guarantee of cancer or lung disease.

Originally Posted by insanecoder
btw what wear-check.. send a link please

With respect to chlorine, additive skepticism works in reverse, too. Just because something is harmful doesn't mean it will kill your engine dead, or noticeably harm it over the time one has it. Nor will the evidence always be obvious, particularly if there are no tear downs. If catastrophic failure is the metric, you're clearly not going to see that each time, or even most times.

As to WearCheck, they are an oil analysis lab. I don't provide non-sponsor sales links, but you can type WearCheck into any search engine and you'll find them very quickly. There are a fair number of oil analyses on this site from WearCheck. They're certainly not unknown to BITOG users.
Posted By: nicholas

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/03/18 05:54 PM

I thought this was a boron based additive?
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/03/18 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
and 80%+ of those who used it seem to feel that it does what it claims

Lmao.
Posted By: SatinSilver

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/03/18 06:20 PM

I'd be willing to give their waterless wheel cleaner a try. Only $3 + $7.25 shipping. Ok maybe not.

Attached picture wipeoff.png
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/03/18 07:55 PM

Always there will be haters and doubters
unfortunately they rarely seem to make it into becoming experimenters having never tried it
and therefore remain stuck in their box or being the last ones to come around to anything

Ive got an engine investment to protect.. its getting a try
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/10/18 01:14 AM

Requesting evidence of claims isn't hating. Saying "hating" invariably means there is none forthcoming.
Posted By: spasm3

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/10/18 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
I've just got my order in.. my bottle is coming this week
so I plan to blackstone a before-after and over several iterations to see what its doing to be sure
so I'm not exactly putting faith into it either I want to see results in terms of
whether I am getting any efficiency gains at all which should show in RPM, operational temperature, vibration
as far as the most important goal (for me) is engine life so I want to see a baseline blackstone and then look @ with motorkote in over time
but I have to say the fear mongering based on nothing but negative belief is wholly unscientific and keeps people from maybe getting a product which may benefit their engine investment


Lets start at the bottom and work our way up. First an engine is not an investment. " fear mongering based on nothing but negative belief" Is that how you explain a lack of data supporting the product?

People here do more that just pour a product into their engines to evaluate it. Perhaps a VOA of the product might have some value, but not everything shows up on a VOA.

I have always considered a UOA to be an evaluation of how the oil is holding up in use, not the engine. Except for coolant, I'm not convinced that UOA's can determine engine wear. I seem to remember some well known bmw engine bearing issues that did not necessarily show up on UOA s but still failed.

Originally Posted by insanecoder

unfortunately they rarely seem to make it into becoming experimenters having never tried it


Originally Posted by insanecoder
You know I have been reading these Motorkote threads and I notice a few things about the naysayers
1) they never tried Motorkote


You are implying that you should not evaluate the product unless you purchase it and put it in your engine.

You joined and immediately jumped into a conversation on the product and you state you can really judge it unless you try ( purchase) it. You have no other posts on this site other than about this product.

Sounds spammy to me.

Originally Posted by insanecoder

Ive got an engine investment to protect.. its getting a try


What if it does not protect it, since your only measure is pouring it in to see if it works. Have you tried wd-40, maple surup, or murphys oil soap, or citronella oil in your engine?

Remember , you can't knock it unless you've tried it.
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/11/18 12:54 PM

Well theyre not going to reveal their secret sauce for reasons you can probably intuit
If you want some semblance of quantitative data or experience then look at the arm-less timken tests (minus the arm != one-arm bandit) against other oils
Also the myriads of non-engineers buying the crap about Timken test instruments as somehow frauds needs to know TImken is a longstanding engineering company with a bearing division

We have word of mouth testimonials which aren't quantitative but the qualitative positive data is fairly large sampling
We have alot of unsubstantiated claims against this product.. one often wonders why but the keyword is unsubstantiated
Please if you have evidence, launch a class-action.. please the lawyers would be all over it (sound of crickets).. exactly

All the experiential data points to the fact its worth a try imo
If you dont wish to then dont.. simple

I recently saw a presentation by the founder doing timken tests on all the additives and synthetics and he seems convincing..
you ask why motorkote isnt all over the world in every engine..
engineers and scientists arent the best marketers.. study Nikola Tesla for a grand example (he had his pocket picked many a times) and is barely known if not for his name on a unit of magnetic flux density and that ridiculous car company
history is repleat w/ superior products which did not succeed
get it into your mind that the product which wins is often the one perceived as better not that which IS better
gotta love the marketing and finance guys.. blame them

and sorry putting maple surup, or murphys oil soap, or citronella oil is unscientific and a bad example.. use common sense..
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/12/18 12:29 AM

The Timken test (and the 4 ball) are valid tests...for what they are testing, and have error bands of the range of 20%...

But they have ZERO relevance for anything to do with engine oil, in your engine...could you please tell me which part of your engine looks like the Timken test apparatus ?

They, and the people pushing them ARE fraudulent in their claims that the test relates to engine protection...and the gullible are duped every time (even as a young engineer, I was duped...learned more about it, understood what was going on and how it's meangless to my engine, then started to see how charlatans could use it to appear convincing).

Struggling to see what Tesla has to do in the context here...you have polyphase AC...Tesla's work is everywhere.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/12/18 12:33 AM

Funny, they don't have the MSDS on their Oz MSDS page...I think that's illegal..
http://motorkote.com.au/msds

But REALLY got a laugh out of their claims...

Quote
The perfect replacement for Slick 50, Liqui Moly, Lucas & Morey's,
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/12/18 01:37 AM

That's the only truthful claim they make. It's a perfect replacement for other unnecessary additives.
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/14/18 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Shannow
The Timken test (and the 4 ball) are valid tests...for what they are testing, and have error bands of the range of 20%...

But they have ZERO relevance for anything to do with engine oil, in your engine...could you please tell me which part of your engine looks like the Timken test apparatus ?

They, and the people pushing them ARE fraudulent in their claims that the test relates to engine protection...and the gullible are duped every time (even as a young engineer, I was duped...learned more about it, understood what was going on and how it's meangless to my engine, then started to see how charlatans could use it to appear convincing).

Struggling to see what Tesla has to do in the context here...you have polyphase AC...Tesla's work is everywhere.


its not about replicating the conditions inside your engine and all of its different contact points and pressures
its a simplified test for lubricity
one of the goals of having that lubricant in your engine

and the Tesla example was about how talented inventors arent the best businessmen.. if you actually read what I wrote
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/15/18 10:45 AM

A simplified test that does not replicate anything in your engine only tells you how things do...in that simplified test...not how your engine wears...surely you can see the difference.

Timken is a reputable manufacturer, but if their test has nothing to do with any behaviour in engines, it means nothing.

Why does the entire industry use the sequence IVA wear test for wear when a one armed bandit could do it for cents in the dollar ?
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/16/18 12:38 AM

I'd love to see an IVR with Motorkote + whatever oils vs some brand
but how exactly are you to carry around and engine and disassemble and measure for every oil sample mixture
as a demo for people?
not to mention having to replace the cam for each sample

just as you dont use an IVR for determining viscosity of said lubricant
you dont use IVR for determining lubricity

you must be able to tell the difference between the two tests right?
each has its place

and to say it means "nothing" is unscientific

Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/16/18 07:00 AM

The industry (except for a couple of blenders and snake oil salesman) consider that test, and the four ball (and certainly 540Rat and his silly assertions) has no relevance to the certification of engine oils.

Surely, if they could gain anything in terms of meeting the life cycle objectives of the engines that they are selling, then either the one armed bandit or the four ball would be part of the SAE/API/ACEA sequencing. Rather than the very expensive to run Sequence IVA.

How's that for scientific ?

If it worked, why all the palaver with the expensive tests ?

As to how you are supposed to carry something around to show people something...if you are showing them something that's zero relevance to their cost of ownership in terms of engine life, claiming that it IS representative or relevant, and all it effectively does is lighten their wallet then that's charlatanism ...not "science".

What's worse than those who are duped by the machines are the "want to believers", who refuse to understand why it's not representative...they want to be convinced that they are doing the right thing,(even when you point out the SAE statements for what they declare them relevant for...and the repeatability/reproducibility...that's science..they reject it for "feeling" like science)..then set out to convince more people to be duped...just like those that try to jam "Awaken" under my door, or sell their message to my kids...it's the same mental process.

Those who claim that their fairground tests prove anything related to engine oil are the lowest of the low, especially if they are the ones AT the fairground duping the gullible.

I was commissioning an MDF factory back in the '90s, when one of the snake oil companies came to town to convince the purchasing department that their one armed bandit proved how inferior their stock grease actually was...I grabbed a tube of the high end rolling press grease, and they cried foul, and that it wasn't representative of "normal" product...
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/16/18 07:01 AM

BTW, what's an IVR test ???
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/16/18 07:47 AM

Re snake oil...here's an oldie but a goodie...

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1374934/Re:_Royal_Purple_says_this_abo

Originally Posted by ZZman
From their FAQ section

The Sequence IVA test is an industry bench test that is used to test oils for API licensing purposes. Some portray this as a sound methodology for predicting wear protection. We believe the ASTM D-2782 Timken Load Test is a better methodology for predicting wear because the Timken test actually measures a lubricant�s film strength (its ability withstand the effects of load, speed and temperature without breaking down and allowing metal to metal contact). Royal Purple has dramatically higher film strength versus competing lubricants. For instance, Royal Purple has nearly 6 times the film strength of Castrol Edge�.

� Royal Purple film strength = 113,839 psi
� Castrol Edge� film strength = 18,979 psi



Like I said...Charlatans...

Re your posit re liking to see how your additive of choice would perform on the IVR test...if that sort of "performance" was necessary, then that additive would already be in the oils, and Sequence IVa wouldn't be used to represent engine wear.

Simple...eh ???
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/16/18 08:50 AM

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1408964/Quaker_State_Challenges_Compet

Why did one of the majors challenge it's competitors to a Sequence IVA test off when an afternoon of back to back one armed bandit tests would have made great (scientific LOL) TV ?
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/25/18 06:23 PM

You seem irked by that fact reality may not conform to your belief set
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.
You can make something as complicated as you want but many problems are dependent on the most significant factor.
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/25/18 06:34 PM

So what motor oil specification is derived from the results of ASTM D2782-17?
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/25/18 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT

Where do we find the results of a properly conducted test on motor oils?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/25/18 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
You seem irked by that fact reality may not conform to your belief set
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.
You can make something as complicated as you want but many problems are dependent on the most significant factor.
Using derrogatory names for an improperly conducted Timken test .. well many tests can be improperly conducted and skew data
bottom line so if you dont want to try it then simple.. DONT


What, now you're bent because of a derogatory name for a test ?

A name that reflects how charlatans use it to lighten the wallets of schmucks who don't know any better, and what the test IS ACTUALLY FOR ???

If the Oil industry and OEMs thought that there was ALNY place for this cheap test to take the place for their expensive industry standard test, do you not thing they'd be all over it like white on rice ?

It WOULD be the standard if it was cheap and meaningful...surely you can see that.

If the API and the OEMs don't see it's relevance or utility in the evaluation of engine oils...the case FOR it being at all useful is tenuous at best.

Note my previous comments, I've had first hand industry experience of sales people using these tests in the field to try to sway entire purchasing departments...fortunately in one case, the purchasing people called the ENGINEERING people (me) to confirm the one armed bandit's utility in their decision making process.
Posted By: Garak

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/26/18 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.

What precisely does this portable simple physics experiment have to do with what actually happens in an internal combustion engine?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/26/18 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by insanecoder
and cannot make the distinction between a high overhead cam-wear test which takes what 100+ hours and new cams for each sample vs a portable simple physics experiment.

What precisely does this portable simple physics experiment have to do with what actually happens in an internal combustion engine?


Exactly...why on earth do you need to know how your engine oil would perform in a differential ?

A differential has absolutely nothing to do with engine wear.

The Timken test is for hypoid, EP style applications, and I stall stand by my statement that those who use Timken, 4 ball and the like to "prove" the quality of their engine oil are charlatans
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/26/18 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
I've just got my order in.. my bottle is coming this week
so I plan to blackstone a before-after and over several iterations to see what its doing to be sure
so I'm not exactly putting faith into it either I want to see results in terms of
whether I am getting any efficiency gains at all which should show in RPM, operational temperature, vibration
as far as the most important goal (for me) is engine life so I want to see a baseline blackstone and then look @ with motorkote in over time
but I have to say the fear mongering based on nothing but negative belief is wholly unscientific and keeps people from maybe getting a product which may benefit their engine investment


If you are sending in a VOA remark on the analysis sheet that you want a test for Chlorine. A UOA without a VOA of both the PCMO AND the additive is useless.
Posted By: PeterPolyol

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/26/18 04:23 PM

1st red flag: Beware the real value of any product that proclaims "[Country of your nationality]'s Number 1 [anything]".
Remember Dura Lube? ...another haloalkane snake oil of a different brand
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/26/18 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder


...its not about replicating the conditions inside your engine and all of its different contact points and pressures
its a simplified test for lubricity
one of the goals of having that lubricant in your engine

and the Tesla example was about how talented inventors arent the best businessmen.. if you actually read what I wrote


What is your definition of lubricity and how it relates to wear and friction modification?

There ARE chemists here on the board that DO know the effects of chemical components found in OTC additives and the effects of this chemistry on engine components.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/27/18 04:56 AM

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a202145.pdf

Interesting paper on the military testing a bunch of gear and engine oils on a variety of test machines including the Timken.

Reading it should reinforce why this test, 4 ball etc. do NOT give results representing what goes on in engines...the tests don't even rank the lubes themselves in the same order.
Posted By: Diesel12

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/29/18 10:47 AM

Just a thought, If Motorkote does have Chlorine Parrafins in their addtive and you do a oil analysis with a TAN report would that indicate if there is corrosion going on in the engine?
Posted By: racin4ds

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/30/18 01:44 PM

I'll just put this out there...

So many of you say the one arm bandit AKA the timken test is totally irrelevant to whats going on inside an engine but if you knew engines you would realize its really not that far from actual... sure it doesn't replicate the crankshaft main bearings and rod bearings floating on a hydrodynamic boundary layer of oil but it DOES simulate the top end of an engine like the Honda D/B series with non-roller cam followers applying decent pressure to the camshaft in a purely friction-related contact point. Many other OHC engines have valvetrains that function like this and do not have roller lifters/followers.(think older BMW engines with lash caps and flat tappets etc) I can also see piston skirt to cylinder wall contact and scuffing a relevant situation to this so-called useless test.

You guys that are anti-additive will argue til you're blue in the face. Let it go! If someone gets a warm and fuzzy over using an additive let them!! Must you really go to such great lengths to disprove an additive and that you couldn't be convinced anyway no matter if it truly did work?!?
Posted By: Kjmack

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/30/18 02:08 PM

I agree with other his videos are well meaning but i tried to watch one and i wanted to jump off a bridge !
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/30/18 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by racin4ds
I'll just put this out there...

So many of you say the one arm bandit AKA the timken test is totally irrelevant to whats going on inside an engine but if you knew engines you would realize its really not that far from actual... sure it doesn't replicate the crankshaft main bearings and rod bearings floating on a hydrodynamic boundary layer of oil but it DOES simulate the top end of an engine like the Honda D/B series with non-roller cam followers applying decent pressure to the camshaft in a purely friction-related contact point. Many other OHC engines have valvetrains that function like this and do not have roller lifters/followers.(think older BMW engines with lash caps and flat tappets etc) I can also see piston skirt to cylinder wall contact and scuffing a relevant situation to this so-called useless test.


If it was USEFUL and REPRESENTATIVE of what goes on in the top end of an engine, then surely you understand my point that the OEMS would be all over it like a rash, instead of having to perform the sequence IVA wear test, which is costly and time consuming.

See, they don't...the oil manufacturers (reputable ones that is), don't use it, and the manufacturers of the machine don't list engine oils as the uses for it. If a cheap test like this gave them any insight into how an oil wore the cam and lifters, it would be in the API sequencing.

It's an EP additive test...and there's nowhere in the engine that requires an EP additive...and the error per the test protocols is of the order of 20%.

It's got SFA to do with anything in an engine...in spite of you imagining that a sliding part is a sliding part and needs a Timken test.

Originally Posted by racin4ds
You guys that are anti-additive will argue til you're blue in the face. Let it go! If someone gets a warm and fuzzy over using an additive let them!! Must you really go to such great lengths to disprove an additive and that you couldn't be convinced anyway no matter if it truly did work?!?


The people who argue that the test IS RELEVENT in the face of industry custom, practice and recommendation need to "let it go"...you aren't arguing from a valid understanding of the operation of engines, nor the basis of the tests.

If you want to tip $20 into your engine because you want a warm and fuzzy...go do it...nobody is stopping you.

Just STOP trying to justify it on the results of improperly applied tests...

Or put up with it being discredited every time that you claim it's valid.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Shannow

The people who argue that the test IS RELEVENT in the face of industry custom, practice and recommendation need to "let it go"..you aren't arguing from a valid understanding of the operation of engines, nor the basis of the tests....

If you want to tip $20 into your engine because you want a warm and fuzzy...go do it...nobody is stopping you.

Just STOP trying to justify it on the results of improperly applied tests...

Or put up with it being discredited every time that you claim it's valid.



+10
Posted By: insanecoder

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 12:20 PM

Once again you are arguing your belief.. nothing you said is at all convincing from a scientific point of view.. its all what if, why they didn't do this.
Your arguments are all negative run arounds.
First you argue the Timken is some sort of bandit then that its irrelevant .. I guess lubricity is irrelevant.
and since they didnt do an IVA then they must be guilty.. right
Now of course as usual at a last resort you start to discredit myself with no understanding of engine ops...
whats next more escalating insults?
Once again, dont like it .. dont try it.
Posted By: Diesel12

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 12:51 PM

Even if it did have 28% chlorine by the time it gets diluted im sure it has little to no harm. If you follow motorkote reccomendations at 2oz per Qt that would be 10oz for 5 qts lets say. 28% of 10oz would be 2.8oz. 5 Qts of oil would be 160oz. 2.8oz divided by 160oz of oil would be .0175%. That is so minimal i wouldnt worry about it personally. I tried Motorkote recently and immediately noticed smoother and quieter engine. i will do a oil analysis at 10K interval to see the results. Currently in my 08 avenger i have Schaeffers 5w-20 with 10oz of Motorkote. Im only at 1K interval so far so it will be a couple months before my UOA shows up. With so many mixed reviews on motorkote i decided to experiment myself.
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
Once again you are arguing your belief.. nothing you said is at all convincing from a scientific point of view.. its all what if, why they didn't do this.
Your arguments are all negative run arounds.
First you argue the Timken is some sort of bandit then that its irrelevant .. I guess lubricity is irrelevant.
and since they didnt do an IVA then they must be guilty.. right
Now of course as usual at a last resort you start to discredit myself with no understanding of engine ops...
whats next more escalating insults?
Once again, dont like it .. dont try it.

Somebody needs to learn to learn rather than just being silly.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
Once again you are arguing your belief.. nothing you said is at all convincing from a scientific point of view.. its all what if, why they didn't do this.
Your arguments are all negative run arounds.


OK...the Timken test is an "EP" test.
Engines don't have requirements for "EP" additives.

Testing how good your engine oil is as a gearbox oil tells you NOTHING about engine wear.

Did you read the paper I linked where the military did exactly that with a range of EP testers and got DIFFERENT results ?
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 10/31/18 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by insanecoder
Once again you are arguing your belief.. nothing you said is at all convincing from a scientific point of view.. its all what if, why they didn't do this.
Your arguments are all negative run arounds.
First you argue the Timken is some sort of bandit then that its irrelevant .. I guess lubricity is irrelevant.
and since they didnt do an IVA then they must be guilty.. right
Now of course as usual at a last resort you start to discredit myself with no understanding of engine ops...
whats next more escalating insults?
Once again, dont like it .. dont try it.


This is where you are confused. He's not arguing belief, he's presenting you with facts and has made multiple attempts at framing them in a manner that you'll comprehend, which you continue to fail at. This is because you like the product, have purchased the produce and need to believe it does what it says.

The Timken test, of which there are two variations, one for gear oils another for greases, is an industry standard test... For gear oil and greases. If it had ANY relevance to engine oils it would be included in the suite of tests used on engine oils, but it doesn't, so it isn't. The same body came up with much more complex tests like IVA that has been mentioned, to evaluate performance in engines. On top of that, there are a host of OEM testing protocols, some of which are incredibly involved like Porsche A40 where they run simulated lapping of the Nurburgring and then perform tear-downs with measurements. If these tests could be skipped by simply running the lubricant through an already established test for gear oils do you not think that would be embraced? Of course it would. The fact is that the pressures required for EP additives to make sense don't exist inside automotive engines. Ergo, the test that evaluates the performance of those additives isn't run on engine oils.

You've been presented with science and logic. You continue to discount both because it doesn't fit the narrative that you've already committed to. On top of that, you are arguing with an Engineer and an oil formulator on the subject and calling into question their positions because they don't align with yours. Such a scenario should certainly cause one to question their motivations and alignment.
Posted By: Ryan Dillin

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/01/18 05:05 PM

<<-- Long time BITOG lurker, minimal poster.

I received two bottles of MotorKote for free with a vehicle, started researching went down several rabbit holes when I should be working, ended up here. I've long been VERY skeptical of ANY oil additive believing based on my own and others VOA, UOA, and other independent controlled scientific testing that basically any engine oil additive is snake oil, a waste of money, and potentially worse for your engine than just a good quality oil changed when it should be.

That said I agree with insanecoder. In my googling there's One Example of ONE guy claiming it ruined his cummins, one of the thousands of engines that are supposedly running fine with it. One failed engine does not a statistically bad product make, and no where does he provide any other supporting documentation where exhaustive testing and analysis was performed to eliminate all other possible sources of engine failure.

It seems any potential drawback is based on dogmatic conjecture.

The Project Farm video, while not a proper scientific test seems a well structured garage test of this lubricant and I find it hard to disbelief my own eyes watching his videos. I've seen nearly all of his oil additive testing vids and this one *seems* to vastly outperform all the others.

I maintain my disbelief in oil additives, while it also seems this product may provide real benefit based on youtube testing and multiple positive user comments. At worst it seems this does absolutely nothing and since I paid nothing for it I seem to have nothing to loose. I continue to be open to data that suggests otherwise and eagerly await to be proven wrong.

Thanks to everybody for your contributions, I continue to enjoy this site and the knowledge I continue to gain.

Originally Posted by insanecoder
You know I have been reading these Motorkote threads and I notice a few things about the naysayers
1) they never tried Motorkote
2) they say it doesn't work because it contradicts their beliefs(like how manufacturers would buyout the product if it really worked.. right)
3) they say its full of chlorine (one even said they have proof) but I've still to this day seen NO PROOF of chlorine
4) they say the timkin test is a fraud .. well they ran it w/o the one-arm.. its suspended weights not being touched duh (no one-arm)

Well the supporting evidence seems to be:
1) Ive not seen any complaints about Motorkote corroding their engine over 20 years in this internet age you;d think someone would have
2) no FTC lawsuits against Motorkote (unlike many other real snakeoils)
3) over 80% 5-star positive raving reviews
4) incredible experimental results (see for yourself on youtube)

Like I said .. no evidence contradicting Motorkote claims except lots of fear-mongering heresay

Oh another thing, in this age where manufacturers are pushing 10-20,000mile oil change intervals and "life-time" oils (yea right) , do you really think they have the motivation to keep your engine running after sale and after their 3-4 year warranty? They'd rather your engine die 5-8 years after sale and after warranty so they can sell you another.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/01/18 05:32 PM

Amsoil's take on additives: https://blog.amsoil.com/do-motor-oil-additives-work/

Quote
What do motor oil additives do?
The shelves at your local auto parts store are full of aftermarket motor oil additives and oil treatments that promise a cornucopia of benefits, such as…

Increased fuel economy
Reduced friction
Maximum horsepower
Improved engine cleanliness
To provide this added performance, aftermarket motor oil additives use different chemical components to augment the motor oil formula. Some products have advertised materials like Teflon, molybdenum or graphite.

Some have used chlorine, which can be highly corrosive when mixed with water.
...

The chemists and engineers at motor oil companies work hard to fine-tune their formulations to fulfill all the requirements of a motor oil. While aftermarket additives may claim to boost performance in one or two areas, they can’t hit them all.

What’s more, aftermarket oil additives are not necessary in fully formulated oils. High-quality engine oils are blended with additives that are carefully balanced to be synergistic, performing well together.


As in moisture in the oil... (Chlorine additives being highly corrosive)
Posted By: kschachn

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/01/18 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan Dillin
It seems any potential drawback is based on dogmatic conjecture.

The Project Farm video, while not a proper scientific test seems a well structured garage test of this lubricant and I find it hard to disbelief my own eyes watching his videos. I've seen nearly all of his oil additive testing vids and this one *seems* to vastly outperform all the others.

Like I said .. no evidence contradicting Motorkote claims except lots of fear-mongering heresay

It is good that your trial did not indicate any harm but I'm not really sure how you would know.

But at the same time there's also no actual evidence that the additive does anything beneficial either. A few videos of people claiming stuff, or testimonals on a website are not the same as standardized test results showing efficacy. The thing is that it's not as if there aren't such tests that could be run to make such a determination and likewise there's no reason the additive company couldn't publish those results. Unfortunately such tests and results are always missing. Why is that do you think? In one of your previous posts you were looking for actual data on air filters, why aren't you looking for similar data on the efficacy of this additive?
Posted By: nicholas

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/02/18 12:45 PM

http://thebestsyntheticoil.com/pdf/TSB%20MO-2010-04-01_chlorine_oil_treatments.pdf

Man - NO THANKS - - - OFF the charts for chlorine.

I will stay with my Lubegard HD engine - - - That stuff has been the bees knees:)
Posted By: Ryan Dillin

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/02/18 05:04 PM

Quote

It is good that your trial did not indicate any harm but I'm not really sure how you would know.

But at the same time there's also no actual evidence that the additive does anything beneficial either. A few videos of people claiming stuff, or testimonals on a website are not the same as standardized test results showing efficacy. The thing is that it's not as if there aren't such tests that could be run to make such a determination and likewise there's no reason the additive company couldn't publish those results. Unfortunately such tests and results are always missing. Why is that do you think? In one of your previous posts you were looking for actual data on air filters, why aren't you looking for similar data on the efficacy of this additive?


You're so right, I'd love to see more testing and data on this mystery substance, but it seems hard to find.
Those who have posted UOA's with it indicate no abnormal wear or adverse effects, and possibly some benefit:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u...1k-mi-uoa-pup-0w20-napa-plat#Post4581085
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4501444/re-motokote#Post4501444

The Project Farm vid is hard to deny as well. I think I've watched all his additive tests and not one came close to the results that MK generated.

I added it to 5w40 Mobil 1 TDT oil change for my 167k mi '06 LBZ Duramax yesterday, I can't claim any immediate difference that putting in good fresh oil wouldn't make. I didn't do a pre oil change UOA, I will do one at the next OCI to look for any abnormal wear, though results will be far from scientific, but should indicate if it's done any harm.

I understand the concern over chlorine. It's also bad for our bodies in elemental form but critical for our survival when paired with sodium. wink
Contrary to what the manufacturer claims, If in fact it does contain chlorine as Amsoil and a singular VOA suggests, I wonder if it is paired, or part of a molecule which does provide some benefit, or is at least not able to be separated or is harmless. I imagine knowing that would require a chemical analysis beyond what an elemental analysis is able to provide? The best I can find alludes to chlorinated paraffins but I can find no data to support that. Just people's words on a screen.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/03/18 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ryan Dillin
Quote

It is good that your trial did not indicate any harm but I'm not really sure how you would know.

But at the same time there's also no actual evidence that the additive does anything beneficial either. A few videos of people claiming stuff, or testimonals on a website are not the same as standardized test results showing efficacy. The thing is that it's not as if there aren't such tests that could be run to make such a determination and likewise there's no reason the additive company couldn't publish those results. Unfortunately such tests and results are always missing. Why is that do you think? In one of your previous posts you were looking for actual data on air filters, why aren't you looking for similar data on the efficacy of this additive?


You're so right, I'd love to see more testing and data on this mystery substance, but it seems hard to find.
Those who have posted UOA's with it indicate no abnormal wear or adverse effects, and possibly some benefit:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u...1k-mi-uoa-pup-0w20-napa-plat#Post4581085
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4501444/re-motokote#Post4501444

The Project Farm vid is hard to deny as well. I think I've watched all his additive tests and not one came close to the results that MK generated.

I added it to 5w40 Mobil 1 TDT oil change for my 167k mi '06 LBZ Duramax yesterday, I can't claim any immediate difference that putting in good fresh oil wouldn't make. I didn't do a pre oil change UOA, I will do one at the next OCI to look for any abnormal wear, though results will be far from scientific, but should indicate if it's done any harm.

I understand the concern over chlorine. It's also bad for our bodies in elemental form but critical for our survival when paired with sodium. wink
Contrary to what the manufacturer claims, If in fact it does contain chlorine as Amsoil and a singular VOA suggests, I wonder if it is paired, or part of a molecule which does provide some benefit, or is at least not able to be separated or is harmless. I imagine knowing that would require a chemical analysis beyond what an elemental analysis is able to provide? The best I can find alludes to chlorinated paraffins but I can find no data to support that. Just people's words on a screen.







If you have some left, I am sure you can mix it with some water and put it in a dish of the apparently affected metals and see what happens shrug should be a pretty simple test.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/04/18 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ryan Dillin
I understand the concern over chlorine. It's also bad for our bodies in elemental form but critical for our survival when paired with sodium. wink
Contrary to what the manufacturer claims, If in fact it does contain chlorine as Amsoil and a singular VOA suggests, I wonder if it is paired, or part of a molecule which does provide some benefit, or is at least not able to be separated or is harmless. I imagine knowing that would require a chemical analysis beyond what an elemental analysis is able to provide? The best I can find alludes to chlorinated paraffins but I can find no data to support that. Just people's words on a screen.


Nobosy is accusing them of putting elemental chlorine in the oil
Chlorinated napthenes and parrafins have been around for ages...they provide EP effects, but they break down in high tmeprature situations, and form acids and corrosion.

As to user testimonial trumping SAE, API, and basic science...here's a good one.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1893624/1
Posted By: Shannow

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/04/18 01:50 AM

re my point about why see how good your engine oil is as a gear oil, and what will it achieve ???

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/31107/oil-lubricant-additives


Quote
Extreme Pressure (EP) Additives
These additives are more chemically aggressive than AW additives. They react chemically with metal (iron) surfaces to form a sacrificial surface film that prevents the welding and seizure of opposing asperities caused by metal-to-metal contact (adhesive wear).
They are activated at high loads and by the high contact temperatures that are created. They are typically used in gear oils and give those oils that unique, strong sulphur smell. These additives usually contain sulphur and phosphorus compounds (and occasionally boron compounds).
They can be corrosive toward yellow metals, especially at higher temperatures, and therefore should not be used in worm gear and similar applications where copper-based metals are used. Some chlorine-based EP additives exist but are rarely used due to corrosion concerns.
Posted By: Diesel12

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/07/18 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Ryan Dillin
Quote

It is good that your trial did not indicate any harm but I'm not really sure how you would know.

But at the same time there's also no actual evidence that the additive does anything beneficial either. A few videos of people claiming stuff, or testimonals on a website are not the same as standardized test results showing efficacy. The thing is that it's not as if there aren't such tests that could be run to make such a determination and likewise there's no reason the additive company couldn't publish those results. Unfortunately such tests and results are always missing. Why is that do you think? In one of your previous posts you were looking for actual data on air filters, why aren't you looking for similar data on the efficacy of this additive?


You're so right, I'd love to see more testing and data on this mystery substance, but it seems hard to find.
Those who have posted UOA's with it indicate no abnormal wear or adverse effects, and possibly some benefit:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u...1k-mi-uoa-pup-0w20-napa-plat#Post4581085
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4501444/re-motokote#Post4501444

The Project Farm vid is hard to deny as well. I think I've watched all his additive tests and not one came close to the results that MK generated.

I added it to 5w40 Mobil 1 TDT oil change for my 167k mi '06 LBZ Duramax yesterday, I can't claim any immediate difference that putting in good fresh oil wouldn't make. I didn't do a pre oil change UOA, I will do one at the next OCI to look for any abnormal wear, though results will be far from scientific, but should indicate if it's done any harm.

I understand the concern over chlorine. It's also bad for our bodies in elemental form but critical for our survival when paired with sodium. wink
Contrary to what the manufacturer claims, If in fact it does contain chlorine as Amsoil and a singular VOA suggests, I wonder if it is paired, or part of a molecule which does provide some benefit, or is at least not able to be separated or is harmless. I imagine knowing that would require a chemical analysis beyond what an elemental analysis is able to provide? The best I can find alludes to chlorinated paraffins but I can find no data to support that. Just people's words on a screen.







If you have some left, I am sure you can mix it with some water and put it in a dish of the apparently affected metals and see what happens shrug should be a pretty simple test.


I am going to try this experiment when i get home later today. i will post pictures and time data.
Posted By: edhackett

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/07/18 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel12
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Ryan Dillin
Quote

It is good that your trial did not indicate any harm but I'm not really sure how you would know.

But at the same time there's also no actual evidence that the additive does anything beneficial either. A few videos of people claiming stuff, or testimonals on a website are not the same as standardized test results showing efficacy. The thing is that it's not as if there aren't such tests that could be run to make such a determination and likewise there's no reason the additive company couldn't publish those results. Unfortunately such tests and results are always missing. Why is that do you think? In one of your previous posts you were looking for actual data on air filters, why aren't you looking for similar data on the efficacy of this additive?


You're so right, I'd love to see more testing and data on this mystery substance, but it seems hard to find.
Those who have posted UOA's with it indicate no abnormal wear or adverse effects, and possibly some benefit:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/u...1k-mi-uoa-pup-0w20-napa-plat#Post4581085
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4501444/re-motokote#Post4501444

The Project Farm vid is hard to deny as well. I think I've watched all his additive tests and not one came close to the results that MK generated.

I added it to 5w40 Mobil 1 TDT oil change for my 167k mi '06 LBZ Duramax yesterday, I can't claim any immediate difference that putting in good fresh oil wouldn't make. I didn't do a pre oil change UOA, I will do one at the next OCI to look for any abnormal wear, though results will be far from scientific, but should indicate if it's done any harm.

I understand the concern over chlorine. It's also bad for our bodies in elemental form but critical for our survival when paired with sodium. wink
Contrary to what the manufacturer claims, If in fact it does contain chlorine as Amsoil and a singular VOA suggests, I wonder if it is paired, or part of a molecule which does provide some benefit, or is at least not able to be separated or is harmless. I imagine knowing that would require a chemical analysis beyond what an elemental analysis is able to provide? The best I can find alludes to chlorinated paraffins but I can find no data to support that. Just people's words on a screen.







If you have some left, I am sure you can mix it with some water and put it in a dish of the apparently affected metals and see what happens shrug should be a pretty simple test.


I am going to try this experiment when i get home later today. i will post pictures and time data.


You won't see anything happen under those conditions. The problem with the chlorinated additives is when they enter the combustion chamber. The chlorine is released when the additive burns and combines with H to form HCl, which is a corrosive gas. HCL dissolves in water forming hydrochloric acid.

Ed
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/07/18 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by edhackett

You won't see anything happen under those conditions. The problem with the chlorinated additives is when they enter the combustion chamber. The chlorine is released when the additive burns and combines with H to form HCl, which is a corrosive gas. HCL dissolves in water forming hydrochloric acid.

Ed


Could one not add heat to the proposed test to try and create that effect?
Posted By: edhackett

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/08/18 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by edhackett

You won't see anything happen under those conditions. The problem with the chlorinated additives is when they enter the combustion chamber. The chlorine is released when the additive burns and combines with H to form HCl, which is a corrosive gas. HCL dissolves in water forming hydrochloric acid.

Ed


Could one not add heat to the proposed test to try and create that effect?


No, you would need to reproduce the heat, pressure, and chemical soup found inside the combustion chamber.

Ed
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/08/18 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by edhackett
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by edhackett

You won't see anything happen under those conditions. The problem with the chlorinated additives is when they enter the combustion chamber. The chlorine is released when the additive burns and combines with H to form HCl, which is a corrosive gas. HCL dissolves in water forming hydrochloric acid.

Ed


Could one not add heat to the proposed test to try and create that effect?


No, you would need to reproduce the heat, pressure, and chemical soup found inside the combustion chamber.

Ed


Ignoring the chemical soup for a second, what about a pressure cooker scenario? I'm struggling to come up with some way we can somewhat replicate these conditions where we can recreate the corrosion situation and thus provide some much needed perspective to the danger of using chlorinated additives.
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/08/18 01:47 AM

[quote=OVERKILL

Ignoring the chemical soup for a second, what about a pressure cooker scenario? I'm struggling to come up with some way we can somewhat replicate these conditions where we can recreate the corrosion situation and thus provide some much needed perspective to the danger of using chlorinated additives. [/quote]

I would not try this at home since you would need repetitive flame temperatures of 4,350F, a pressure vessel capable of > = 200 psi, and the vessel would have to attain a constant temperature of ~ 500F.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/08/18 02:24 AM

Could one test it in a lawnmower engine?
Posted By: Diesel12

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/13/18 11:08 AM

I have a extra lawn mower engine i am going to have to setup an experiment. I am really curious to see what the results will outcome. I will also do a oil analysis after a set amount of hours. I may even try some E85 in the mix.
Posted By: TurboTravis

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 11/16/18 07:28 PM

I have been using this (along with other additives) in my beater car....just for something to do. Typically find them on clearance as I did with this [email protected] Can't say if it has helped or hurt anything.
Posted By: nyquil_junkie

Re: New vid from Project Farm - MotorKote. I'm sold. - 12/04/18 05:35 AM


Quote

They are activated at high loads and by the high contact temperatures that are created. They are typically used in gear oils and give those oils that unique, strong sulphur smell.


That would explain why MotorKote smells oddly like gear oil.
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