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LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils?

Posted By: 1JZ_E46

LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 04:02 AM

Are European GDI and TGDI engines somehow immune from LSPI? Or do they have ways of addressing beyond changing the oil formulation? Just about every Euro specíd oil Iíve seen (including, LL-01, LL-04, 229.5, 229.51, A40, C30, etc.) are high Ca (2,000-2,400 for A3/B4 and around 1,600 for C3) with essentially no Mg. Even the more recent specs donít seem concerned with calcium doses. It makes me wonder how much changing the calcium content really can impact LSPI. Thoughts? Ever seen a low-Ca C3 oil?
Posted By: zeng

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 08:24 AM

C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.
Posted By: wemay

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 09:00 AM

Well, Hyundai still publish 5W-40 as a recommended option for the 2.0T and i have that jug on deck for it's next oci. But there have been too many industry papers coming to the same conclusion to think that Calcium and Sodium don't contribute to the issue i.e., from SAE Papers, Chevron Ornite, Lubrizol etc. I guess time will tell. Maybe the exclusion of Na is a simpler, cheaper solution to the issue than introducing the add package found in Euro specc'd oils, just a guess.
Posted By: nap

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 01:50 PM

Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 01:55 PM

Havent heard of any LSPI related issues here in EU. Think its only concerns the ilsac oils line up.
Posted By: Whimsey

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 02:19 PM

The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey
Posted By: zeng

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Points taken, thumbsup
Posted By: wemay

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


This^
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Whimsey
The European spec oils usually have much higher levels of Zinc & Phosphorus which helps to offset the LSPI caused by higher calcium, so I read. US spec oils have lower levels of Zinc and Phosphorus to help with cat poisoning and those doesn't offset calcium's effect with LSPI.

Whimsey


ACEA C3 oils (specs like LL-04, 229.51, C30) have zinc and phosphorous levels about equal to today's SN/GF-5 oils, and they all have no magnesium and most have no moly.

I think part of the reason LSPI doesn't seem to be a concern for euro manufacturers (at least from an oil formulation standpoint) is that they specify premium fuel for their engines, resulting in less soot (a contributor to LSPI).
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.
Posted By: zeng

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


If they are selling their cars here, they have CAFE.


.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 04:54 PM

Originally Posted By: zeng
.... but Euro OEM's doesn't recommend RC GF5 oils in CAFEland , do they?


Well, no, but they are still squeezing out every last drop of fuel economy from the engines via engineering and tuning (for CAFE requirements)... which is the cause of LSPI in the first place. Oil is only one very small lever to pull in the quest for MPGs.
Posted By: drtyler

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/07/18 06:26 PM

I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.


Posted By: edyvw

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 04:41 AM

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.

Nope, they have limits of grams of CO2 per 100km and $6 gallon of gas.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 04:43 AM

Originally Posted By: drtyler
I can't speak for other cars & engines, but the VW EA888 engine in Europe has an extra injector in the intake to squirt a bit of gas down to the valves and the fuel mapping in the ECU is programmed differently (presumably for Euro emission requirements rather than USA & Canada). I realize this affects intake valve buildup rather than LSPI specifically.



Injector issue is due to cost. Cars in US are cheaper and more affordable.
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.
Posted By: racin4ds

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 02:27 PM

I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 04:04 PM

Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!


I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans arenít concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!


I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans arenít concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.


On a personal observation, after running what the dealer put in the initial fillup on our Mazda, I switched to 91 octane. What I noticed were quicker upshifts running uphill. The computers must be adjusting timing to compensate for the higher octane?

In laymanís terms, there is less lugging of the engine which in my opinion is the cause of LSPI. With the knock sensors and such on todayís modern engines we donít hear the knocking or pinging like in the old days but the sense that the engine is lugging is still there. A lot of this too is due to the automatic transmissions programmed to upshift quickly into higher gears.
Posted By: drtyler

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 06:49 PM

Not always. VW recommendation for '17 GTI is 87 octane.

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!


I tend to agree. I think this is why the Germans arenít concerned with LSPI... because they always recommend premium fuel.
Posted By: Brigadier

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 09:16 PM

Higher octane and no ethanol. E0 92 octane gas really wakes up my Santa Fe as it did my Colorado before it..
Posted By: Garak

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/08/18 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: drtyler
Not always. VW recommendation for '17 GTI is 87 octane.

If a German car fan bought one, he'd probably run premium out of habit. wink If I bought one, I wouldn't be even checking the recommendations, and just assumed premium from the start.
Posted By: zeng

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/09/18 05:33 AM

Originally Posted By: racin4ds
I still believe that LSPI would be a non-issue if the use of premium fuel was mandated for these high compression, GDI, turbocharged engines, its stupid to even try and run this combo on junk, 87 octane fuel!
+1
.... and probably CAFE-intended computer settings/tunes etc.
So much for the API/SAE hooh hahs on oil reformulations.
Is that not marketing-biased ?
Posted By: edyvw

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/09/18 06:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: drtyler
Not always. VW recommendation for '17 GTI is 87 octane.

If a German car fan bought one, he'd probably run premium out of habit. wink If I bought one, I wouldn't be even checking the recommendations, and just assumed premium from the start.

VW recommends 87 to be more competitive with Toyota and Honda. It is VW's new strategy: get soccer mom from suburbia to abandon Toyota RAV4 and moves to VW Tiguan. In few years when those people start having issues that are kind of confined to Euro vehicles they will abandon VW while traditional buyers of VW also left.
I just cannot understand why would anyone run 87 in turbo engine or 0W20 oils. But, as long as there is sheep there will be wool to collect.
Posted By: George Bynum

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/09/18 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.


When a model is sold in both the EU and USA, is engine software different? Of course this question assumes the same model is the same model; there may be significant, physical, differences beyond software. Do we know?
Posted By: Garak

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/09/18 11:25 PM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
I just cannot understand why would anyone run 87 in turbo engine or 0W20 oils. But, as long as there is sheep there will be wool to collect.

At least there are those of us who are a little more skeptical.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/10/18 03:39 AM

Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.


When a model is sold in both the EU and USA, is engine software different? Of course this question assumes the same model is the same model; there may be significant, physical, differences beyond software. Do we know?

VW EA888 in Europe has direct and port injection while in the U.S. is only direct. Also, in the US it is stratified burn.
Posted By: UG_Passat

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/11/18 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.


When a model is sold in both the EU and USA, is engine software different? Of course this question assumes the same model is the same model; there may be significant, physical, differences beyond software. Do we know?

VW EA888 in Europe has direct and port injection while in the U.S. is only direct. Also, in the US it is stratified burn.


Only the 3rd gen EA888 (without the Budak cycle) was twin injection, similar to Toyota's D4-S system.

The US does not have stratified burn. It does not meet the NOx requirement. All forced induction GDI motors VW/Audi produces do not have the 2nd mode, aka Stratified burn, what the "S" in FSI used to mean, including Europe.
Posted By: UG_Passat

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/11/18 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: zeng
C3's I come across are high Ca with minimal Mg.
LSPI as high Ca related in oil is American (marketing) way of sorting out a non-issue in (Euro) LSPI, IMHO.


I believe the Europeans don't have CAFE and thus don't have much incentives to push the engines regime into LSPI.


CAFE is just fuel economy average. That's what CAFE stands for, Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

Europe has their EU emissions requirement. They do have a Corporate Average Emissions requirement, which was why Aston Martin sold rebodied Toyota iQ's as the Aston Martin Cygnet.

Posted By: edyvw

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/12/18 04:34 AM

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also yes, EU engines have more lean burn which produces more NOx which has higher limits in EU.


When a model is sold in both the EU and USA, is engine software different? Of course this question assumes the same model is the same model; there may be significant, physical, differences beyond software. Do we know?

VW EA888 in Europe has direct and port injection while in the U.S. is only direct. Also, in the US it is stratified burn.


Only the 3rd gen EA888 (without the Budak cycle) was twin injection, similar to Toyota's D4-S system.

The US does not have stratified burn. It does not meet the NOx requirement. All forced induction GDI motors VW/Audi produces do not have the 2nd mode, aka Stratified burn, what the "S" in FSI used to mean, including Europe.

Wait, I thought Europe is lean and the US is stratified? Obviously I made mistake.
Posted By: Amenhotep

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/19/18 06:59 PM

The fuel in Spain and I guess in European Union is
Standard 95 octane.
Premium 98 octane.

Diesel
Cetane index 51 standard, 55 premium, 10 ppm sulphur

Those low octane values remember me the the 80's Which really surprised me
Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/19/18 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Amenhotep
The fuel in Spain and I guess in European Union is
Standard 95 octane.
Premium 98 octane.

Diesel
Cetane index 51 standard, 55 premium, 10 ppm sulphur

Those low octane values remember me the the 80's Which really surprised me


Europe uses a different metric (RON only) to determine octane rating, while the united states uses RON+MON average, resulting in an average 5 point increase for european octane ratings. The octanes you listed would be 93 and 90 in the U.S., which are typical here (although we do have 87 octane... which would be approximately 92 in europe).
Posted By: Amenhotep

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 06/19/18 08:05 PM

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: Amenhotep
The fuel in Spain and I guess in European Union is
Standard 95 octane.
Premium 98 octane.

Diesel
Cetane index 51 standard, 55 premium, 10 ppm sulphur

Those low octane values remember me the the 80's Which really surprised me


Europe uses a different metric (RON only) to determine octane rating, while the united states uses RON+MON average, resulting in an average 5 point increase for european octane ratings. The octanes you listed would be 93 and 90 in the U.S., which are typical here (although we do have 87 octane... which would be approximately 92 in europe).


Thanks
Posted By: benjy

Re: LSPI and Euro engines, any low-Ca high-Mg C3 oils? - 09/08/18 01:12 AM

todays DI allows the use of lower octane fuels, turbo or na. i buy nothing but manual trannied vehicles + shift as i see fit. no load on the flat i pull out in 2nd skipshifting 2-4-6 better mpgs, in needed you can hold a gear as long as YOU want, the beauty of a manual tranny!! surely would like to see both injection systems in VW aka VAG cars in USA, 200,000 trouble free 1.8T 2001 jetta + now a 2001 TT 225Q roadster 1.8T
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