Home

Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles

Posted By: Lolvoguy

Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:10 AM

Recently I watched a documentary on YouTube where they questioned the future of the German auto industry.
They mentioned that Asian countries like China are leading the way. Now China has Germany producing it's projects.
Usually I'd ignore videos like this, but considering the increasing number of European cities (and countries- Norway in particular who plans to phase out ICE engines in 6 years time) taxing and phasing out ICE vehicles, I'm interested to see how things develop.

Germany made it's name with the ICE over 100 years ago, now it seems like the Germans are being left behind.

Despite my initial reluctance to them, the electric setup is far simpler and reliable than the current offerings for ICE engines (diesel and gas). Fewer moving parts, less items to maintain etc.
When you take a look at the offerings from MB, BMW, Volvo etc, you'll see that they simply cannot compare to companies like Toyota, Hyundai, Honda etc.

What are your thoughts?

Youtube Video
Posted By: Rand

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:18 AM

they make a good second car or commuter.
they cant be the only vehicle yet.
Posted By: sloinker

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:20 AM

Volkswagen made a strategic partnership with Ford for electric vehicle technologies going forward. I think that the European manufacturers are a little behind the 8 ball for now but I foresee parity in the future. I also believe that the demographics of car buyers for electric vehicles will mirror current demographics of purchasers. A Tesla or Aston-Martin electric car purchaser probably doesn't look twice at a Nissan Leaf and vice-versa.
Posted By: JohnnyJohnson

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:21 AM

They were a little reluctant to build the 1975 VW prototype 3 cylinder diesel that got over 175 MPG too.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:25 AM

The Audi E-Tron is actually really nice, I test drove one but the talk of range and battery life on here when I made a thread about it caused me to back off on the purchase. Definitely a far nicer offering than others on the market from what I've seen however.

If my wife and I weren't trying to move to the country, I'd probably have pulled the trigger.
Posted By: Pelican

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:27 AM

Wait till the cost per KWH goes up to the equiv of $5 a gallon or more and the very same people that clamour for electric cars will cry foul!
Under the present infrastructure there isn't enough electricity to supply all the A/C at peak periods so what are they going to do when demand raises?
I don't see any additional infrastructure being built ! Oh but soon the greens will want a nuclear car, because THAT is clean energy crazy and once you have reactor under the hood you'll never have to stop for fill-ups and then we'll have the problem of where/how to dispose of the byproduct, but that another story.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pelican
Wait till the cost per KWH goes up to the equiv of $5 a gallon or more and the very same people that clamour for electric cars will cry foul!
Under the present infrastructure there isn't enough electricity to supply all the A/C at peak periods so what are they going to do when demand raises?
I don't see any additional infrastructure being built ! Oh but soon the greens will want a nuclear car, because THAT is clean energy crazy and once you have reactor under the hood you'll never have to stop for fill-ups and then we'll have the problem of where/how to dispose of the byproduct, but that another story.


The byproduct is actually pretty easy to deal with. EV's in Ontario are mostly nuclear powered by proxy, thanks to our 18 units.

A tiny SMR would be a novel source of power for an EV actually. You could use it to run/charge your house when you were home too, basically having a portable power source. Many of the SMR designs are not meant to be refuelled, they are sealed units with a 20-year lifespan. A 0.25MW SMR, if it could be made small enough, and secure enough, would be more than sufficient for basically any vehicle, however what one would do with the waste heat is another issue.
Posted By: sloinker

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pelican
Wait till the cost per KWH goes up to the equiv of $5 a gallon or more and the very same people that clamour for electric cars will cry foul!
Under the present infrastructure there isn't enough electricity to supply all the A/C at peak periods so what are they going to do when demand raises?
I don't see any additional infrastructure being built ! Oh but soon the greens will want a nuclear car, because THAT is clean energy crazy and once you have reactor under the hood you'll never have to stop for fill-ups and then we'll have the problem of where/how to dispose of the byproduct, but that another story.


I somewhat agree. I believe that electric and autonomous cars are the future. People will own a share of the car that will arrive and pick up and deliver passengers, maybe a network of vehicles that will allow passengers to transit throughout the nation(s) by virtue of changing rides along the way.
Posted By: philipp10

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Pelican
Wait till the cost per KWH goes up to the equiv of $5 a gallon or more and the very same people that clamour for electric cars will cry foul!
Under the present infrastructure there isn't enough electricity to supply all the A/C at peak periods so what are they going to do when demand raises?
I don't see any additional infrastructure being built ! Oh but soon the greens will want a nuclear car, because THAT is clean energy crazy and once you have reactor under the hood you'll never have to stop for fill-ups and then we'll have the problem of where/how to dispose of the byproduct, but that another story.

go up to $5 a gallon equivalent? Not going to happen. The world is not in static limbo.....
Posted By: CARJ

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 01:21 AM

Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche all have teams in the Formula E series. If they didn't care about the technology, I think they wouldn't be there.
Posted By: Saabist

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 01:45 AM

They make no economic sense. They're too expensive. (Compare cost of a Leaf and a Versa, the same car other than electric vs. gasoline.) Today's batteries have many limitations and don't meet the needs of lots of people. I just don't see any logical reason for this mad rush to electric vehicles. Maybe if someone invents "Mr. Fusion" but we're not anywhere near that yet.

Remember, electric cars are the past - they were superceded by internal combustion a century ago for reasons that are still valid to this day.
Posted By: MParr

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 01:54 AM

Total electric vehicles just aren’t going to make much impact any time soon. Limited operating range is a big stumbling block. Going on a long trip? To much down time for charging. Hybrid electric vehicles are just better at this time.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 02:49 AM

The Germans love the Model 3, even though they are hard to get.
Germny Model 3 sales

There are plans for the next Gigafactory there.
Posted By: NO2

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 02:54 AM

They make a good primary vehicle for those who live in cities, and mostly commute. Just rent an ICE vehicle for long trips. But for the foreseeable future, a hybrid is the way to go.
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 03:56 AM

For those who live in major cities and "commute", mass transit makes sense. An electric vehicle does not, if they are interested in minimizing costs to offset the higher expenses associated with living in a major city. Take Chicago... parking spots, especially hourly spots, are extremely cost prohibitive. Monthly parking spots are crazy as well, and as in any major city, there are not enough spots to go around as you drive around the city. Hence, you'll park farther away, and extend your travel times, drive up your costs thru insurance, parking, charging, etc. And with IOT and "smart" (I use the term loosely) grids, there is most definitely a day coming when charging your PowerWheels could challenge the cost of gas. If you do not own a vehicle, monthly passes for mass transit are generally significantly cheaper than owning a vehicle and the associated expenses.

The only real place I see electric cars making more than nominal sense is where: 1. you live less than 40 miles from work each way, but farther than mass transit access, 2. work parking is free, 3. work provides free charging, and 4. if you travel via vehicle for pleasure, you also own one with ICE. If you don't meet the first 3, then I think you're actually worse off owning an EV. Just my .02.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 12:38 PM

It pays to to be on the winning side of regulation regardless of the actual/perceived justification of said regulation.

German suppliers are already scaling back or closing their doors. There's going to be a lot of short term pain in the labor market.

The Germans are trying to develop their own technology rather than rely on foreign tech and maintain profitability in the process. This is a monumental task compared to say a company like Tesla who can just burn cash.

Unfortunately developing domestic technology is becoming increasingly difficult because for example their access to the Chinese market essentially requires* them to use a Chinese supplier for the most expensive component which is the battery. A Chinese supplier is opening a battery factory in Germany under "collaboration" with one of the big three automakers.

*Companies who do not use Chinese batteries will lose out on subsidies and be subjected to more frequent audits/general harassment from the security services of the Chinese communist party.
Posted By: SeaJay

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 04:13 PM

The world is currently split into 3 camps:

--Those that think EV's are the only sensible vehicle for everyone all the time and think that anyone disagreeing with this viewpoint is an idiot
--Those that think EV's make no sense at all and think that anyone disagreeing with this viewpoint is an idiot
--Those that understand EV's have there place in the world for many, but do not currently meet everyone's needs while conceding that at some point in the distant future may meet everyone's needs
Posted By: sdowney717

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 04:21 PM

There is coming a solid state lithium battery. It does not blow up, catch fire. It can be recharged much faster. Electric cars get 100 mpg equivalence compared to cost of gasoline, now ove in Europe they have very high fuel prices, the incentives to switch are much greater.

I still see no electric charge stations near me.

Skip to 6 minute mark to get to the solid state information.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0nA8CfxBqA
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 04:38 PM

Germany is one messed up country right now, run by lunatics, as are most EU member states.

We have very clear examples from EU, Australia and Canada just how destructive the "electrification" movement is to the general public. People are struggling to pay their electricity bills and then on top of that they hear they will be forced to buy electric vehicles.
Their "reluctance" comes from basic realities and simple math. They cannot afford the grand vision if their masters.


The question is will US people learn from these examples? Time will tell.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Germany is one messed up country right now, run by lunatics, as are most EU member states.

We have very clear examples from EU, Australia and Canada just how destructive the "electrification" movement is to the general public. People are struggling to pay their electricity bills and then on top of that they hear they will be forced to buy electric vehicles.
Their "reluctance" comes from basic realities and simple math. They cannot afford the grand vision if their masters.


The question is will US people learn from these examples? Time will tell.

Well, there is upside: they do not bankrupt by calling EMS.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Germany is one messed up country right now, run by lunatics, as are most EU member states.

We have very clear examples from EU, Australia and Canada just how destructive the "electrification" movement is to the general public. People are struggling to pay their electricity bills and then on top of that they hear they will be forced to buy electric vehicles.
Their "reluctance" comes from basic realities and simple math. They cannot afford the grand vision if their masters.


The question is will US people learn from these examples? Time will tell.

Well, there is upside: they do not bankrupt by calling EMS.


LOL
Posted By: PandaBear

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rand
they make a good second car or commuter.
they cant be the only vehicle yet.


This.

For many families needing 2 cars this is a good commuting car for 1 of them. When it is old and range reduced it is a good teenager car too.
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/05/19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by PandaBear
Originally Posted by Rand
they make a good second car or commuter.
they cant be the only vehicle yet.


This.

For many families needing 2 cars this is a good commuting car for 1 of them. When it is old and range reduced it is a good teenager car too.

Most families in Europe do not have two cars. That is where the problem is.
Posted By: dlundblad

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 10:56 AM

China can get into EV’s because of how many coal power plants they are producing.

Does Germany have that capacity? I don’t know.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by dlundblad
China can get into EV’s because of how many coal power plants they are producing.

Does Germany have that capacity? I don’t know.



No.. but Russia have. Nord Stream II
Posted By: dlundblad

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Originally Posted by dlundblad
China can get into EV’s because of how many coal power plants they are producing.

Does Germany have that capacity? I don’t know.



No.. but Russia have. Nord Stream II


The Germans buy their electricity from Russia?
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by dlundblad
Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Originally Posted by dlundblad
China can get into EV’s because of how many coal power plants they are producing.

Does Germany have that capacity? I don’t know.



No.. but Russia have. Nord Stream II


The Germans buy their electricity from Russia?



No, gas.. that gonna produce electricity.
Posted By: dlundblad

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Originally Posted by dlundblad
Originally Posted by Bjornviken
Originally Posted by dlundblad
China can get into EV’s because of how many coal power plants they are producing.

Does Germany have that capacity? I don’t know.



No.. but Russia have. Nord Stream II


The Germans buy their electricity from Russia?



No, gas.. that gonna produce electricity.


I am confused. What does Russia do?

Does Germany buy gas from Russia for electricity?
Posted By: edyvw

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 05:01 PM

Quote

I am confused. What does Russia do?

Does Germany buy gas from Russia for electricity?

After Fukushima disaster, there was a strong movement in Germany to go away with nuclear. No one wants to copy how France did it, and they arguably have best nuclear power plant infrastructure.
So Germany is relying on coal, and import of electricity from countries that have excessive electricity production around Europe.
Electricity is not going to be an issue. EV's are coming, and they will be equally practical or even better (maybe not in our lifetime). Infrastructure will be figured out.
I would more worry from geopolitical standpoint what happens with Russia or Saudi Arabia once that happens.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by dlundblad


I am confused. What does Russia do?

Does Germany buy gas from Russia for electricity?


Yes, Germany is importing natural gas from Russia for power generation because of their 3/4 of a trillion dollar boondoggle. They also just brought a new coal plant online, so I don't think generation capacity is really going to be an issue, however the cost of electricity is currently one there.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 10:14 PM

Not only EU have their gas from Russia.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...-russia-gas-pipeline-intl-hnk/index.html
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Germany's reluctance to electric vehicles - 12/07/19 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Lolvoguy
the electric setup is far simpler and reliable than the current offerings for ICE engines


Sadly, neither is true. The batteries are amazingly complex with a stunning number of components, not to mention the dual and triple motor setups and high voltage controllers. There is a reason EV's cost so much, and it's not just because of the battery.

Reliability will likely surpass ICE powered vehicles sometime in the future. But as of now, the popular EV's are less reliable and many of the repairs are exceedingly expensive. It's a very good thing today's EV's come with long warranties.

Some amazing videos exist on the flat out stunning "out of warranty" costs of Tesla cars. Hint, they think nothing of charging $20,000 or even $25,000 for repairs.


Cost
Range
Charge time
© 2020 Bob Is The Oil Guy