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Engine Break-In - Found the answer

Posted By: buster

Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:17 PM

One of the more controversial topics within the automotive world is how to properly break-in an engine. There are two camps - 1. follow the owners manual 2. run it hard the first few miles. The common denominator among manufacturers is keeping the RPM's varied and never exceed 4k rpms. Engineering Explained did a nice video of why you should follow the owners manual. I did some searching and found a good explanation from a Porsche engineer that makes sense and confirms why they want you to stay below 4k rpms. *Unfortunately for me, my car had 63 miles on it already so I have no idea how it was broken in. The Subaru had 3 miles.

In bold is the anwer:

New Engine Break-in Conundrum By: Ken Koop

Since I was a young boy, I have always wondered why it takes so long to break-in a new engine–especially those built by Porsche. Most people driving new cars also do not fully understand the real reason for the break-in period. Are you one of them? A good friend of mine just picked up his brand new 911 Turbo and complained about the break-in period taking so long (2,000 miles, not exceeding 4,000 RPM). We have talked about this issue many times over the past few years, always coming up with many scenarios of why such a long break-in period is required. However, we have never agreed on a reasonable answer. Well, you are about to find out the reason Porsche requires the break-in period it has today. The answer comes directly from the engineers at Porsche.

I was on a recent Porsche factory tour and was watching an engine being built and dyno tested. Each engine is built by a single person on a moving production line. Porsche feels that they can obtain better quality control with one person building an individual engine from start to finish. In addition, each engine builder can assemble every type of production engine that Porsche produces and every gasoline engine is still built at the Stuttgart factory. It takes 2-3 ½ hours to assemble each engine, depending on the type. Afterwards, the completed engines are either used in the cars produced at the Zuffenhausen factory or are boxed up and shipped to Leipzig (for the Cayenne and Panamera) or off to Finland (for the Boxster and Cayman).
Before all of the parts are assembled for a particular engine; the pistons, connecting rods and valves are individually weighed and grouped together using similar weights to optimize performance. They are put onto a cart that moves along the assembly line with each engine block. This cart contains every part required to assemble that particular engine which includes each washer, nut, bolt, bearing etc… As a result, if any part is left in the cart at the end of the assembly line, then—Houston, we have a problem!At the end of the assembly line, the engine is filled with Mobil 1 Synthetic Oil. Each engine is then dry run (without fuel), pressure tested and checked for leaks. Every car coming off the production line is also run on a rolling road dyno. This enables all cars and engines to be tested at highway speed before they leave the factory.

Some of the engines are also randomly selected to be tested on a dyno stand before they are installed into the car. The assembly plant has 5 dyno rooms located directly off the production line. The day I was on the tour, there were around 40 engines lined up on dollies. Some of these engines were in the process of being tested for quality control purposes. Once the engine is bolted onto the dyno, warm water is circulated throughout the engine to bring it up to temperature. The operator then starts the engine and checks for the correct pressures and temperature before the actual test begins. Engine speed is then increased in RPM steps to about 80% of its red line (the engine’s maximum RPM). The entire engine run takes around 30 minutes. Since each engine type (Turbo, GT3, Boxster or Carrera…) has a different red line, all of the data is recorded and analyzed after the test is completed.After the engine is turned off, the engine is again checked for seal leaks and its actual HP is compared to its advertised HP. To pass final inspection, the engine has to develop, at a minimum, 100% of what its advertised HP rating is. Also, the engine cannot produce more than 5% over that same advertised rating. If the engine falls out of those parameters, the engine is rejected and then torn down to determine why it did not deliver the anticipated HP.

When the test was completed, a Porsche engineer came over to review the results. I couldn’t resist asking the question that I had been searching to find an answer to for all these years. I asked “why does Porsche feel it is safe for a new engine to run at nearly full throttle in the factory, while the customer must keep the engine speed to no more than 4,000 RPM for a 2,000 mile break-in period?” I thought that was a logical question and if I do say so myself-well stated! The engineer replied, “Herr Koop, you do not understand (that I already knew). When we do our engine test, the metals inside the engine never reach the temperatures they would when driven on the street since the test session is fairly short. In other words, the bearings, pistons and cylinders never get a chance to thermally expand to their maximum. Therefore, there is little wear on the moving components. But when you drive a car on the street, the engine parts expand considerably more because of the heat being generated from the engine running for an extended period of time. No matter how tight the tolerances are, there is always a slight amount of expansion in the material. The moving parts can wear quickly if exposed to excessive heat and not always in a uniform way. We also constantly vary the speed and allow the engine to run at both high and low RPM’s”.

“Porsche wants the engine to break-in slowly, which means it needs to maintain a lower operating temperature (below 4,000 RPM) and to allow all parts to adjust (wear-in) within their own thermal expansion parameters. This is also the reason why Porsche wants the owner to vary the RPM throughout the break-in period; therefore the engine doesn’t get use to one operating temperature range”.

“Porsche has been using Mobil 1 Oil since the early 90’s. With its superior lubricating properties, it takes many miles of driving (without getting the engine too hot) before the components actually seat (or break-in). Porsche’s own tests reveal that after 2,000 miles have been driven, all of the moving parts have had a chance to wear into their adjacent surfaces and then an increase in engine RPM is permissible.” I replied, “JA DAS SOUNDS GUT, when you explain it that way, it makes a lot of sense.” I thought to myself “You Dummkopf, why didn’t you think of that”.

The engineer commented that there were many other moving parts other than the engine that needed break-in as well. Wheel bearings, constant velocity joints, tires, brakes and transmission were just some of the other components that were mentioned.

So breaking it down into layman’s terminology, it all comes down to; higher RPM equates to more heat, which leads to greater expansion. For a new engine, that can mean uneven wear on certain parts if excessive heat is allowed to build up. In Porsche’s opinion, the thermal expansion of different parts and various materials need time to adjust to one another. Porsche’s time frame for that to occur is calculated to be 2,000 miles, with the heat restriction being 4,000 RPM. So simple; who woulda thunk.

Many experienced Porsche engine builders and experts on the Flat-6 engine state that the peak power of a Porsche engine is developed around the 20,000 mile mark. This coincides with the principle of what the Porsche engineer was telling me; “Break it in correctly and the engine will last longer and perform better”.

It only took me 45 years to find out the real answer to this puzzling question. After I returned home, I explained this to my friend. As for our ongoing debate, we now feel a solution to this riddle has finally been reached. Neither one of us had the answer to this complex question totally figured out, but we were on the right path! I am finally able to resolve another one of my life’s unanswered mysteries and now it’s been crossed off the list. I hope this helps explain one of your unanswered questions in the car world as well.
Posted By: ragtoplvr

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:37 PM

The breaking in of other components, is the main reason. When you rebuild only the engine, it can be rather advantageous to run it harder faster. Also, most re-builders do not have the engine shop Porsche has, so have built the engine a little bit looser.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:45 PM

Now if you get a few beers in the engineer he could very well say, "American drivers are horrible so we keep them under 4k rpms for a couple of months so they won't crash our beautiful Porsche."


BMW tells its customers something similar (irrc it's 1,000 miles, 4k rpms). Years ago I read somewhere that not only should you vary the rpms but it should be on and off power (ie, engine braking). Apparently most of the ring seating occurs within the first 25 miles or so. My own anecdotal experience seems to support that (see below)

Oil Burners:

E46 ZHP (manual): Followed BMW recommendation but did not vary rpms nor did I utilize engine braking. Basically drove it as a commuter which included a lot of short low speed trips. The M54 was a notorious oil burner, but it seemed to impact AT cars more. Scuttlebutt was that it occurred because a torque plate wasn't used during the honing of the cylinders. shrug
E90 330 (AT): Already had 75 miles on it when I took possession.

Not Oil Burners:

Drove up and down hills and on hwy at various speeds using manual mode for the first 20 miles with 4 periods to cool down (idle).

E90 335d (AT):
F32 435i (AT) (same)

Benz CLK 320 (AT)
Benz SLK 230 (AT)
Benz C300 (AT)
Posted By: Ws6

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:49 PM

My ls7 burned about half a quart and sooted the tail pipes up for the first 500mi. After that, nada. Rings apparently take longer than a few miles to seat in some engines...
Posted By: CT8

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:51 PM

What was the question? Would an engineer use tolerances to describe the clearances in an engine?
Posted By: Trav

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:54 PM

I cant see how it could be advantageous to run it harder or faster under any circumstances. The only thing you are doing is generating more wear faster and not in a nice way.
Posted By: d00df00d

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 12:55 PM

Nice find, buster. Thanks for posting.

Link to the original article: http://yel.pca.org/porsche-engine-break-in/
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 01:04 PM

Thanks d00df00d.

Trav, I agree. You're creating hot spots and uneven wear-in when going hard on the engine early on.

This article essentially confirms the common sense approach. You don't want to lug the engine, but don't want to go nuts on it either. Medium load, vary rpms, avoid continuous speed and stay below 4k rpms when possible.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 01:07 PM

Ah. It is just One answer, not THE answer. But I cannot argue the point other than, high rpm alone does not generate the heat that high RPM and High load would. Turbocharging presents its own problems as it can present high loading at low rpm.

More points:

- Varying rpm keeps reciprocating systems out of certain resonant antinodes.

- Lubrication splash and coverage patterns will change at different rpms.

- To improve efficiency, ring gaps are kept tight, under high load and rpm, they can be overheated to the point the gap is reduced to
zero, then you will have loss of finish and material properties of the rings and the liners. Possibly irreversible.

German engineers are so good that is why the 996 was designed with a Intermediate jack shaft for cam drive AND with it's non-pressure lubricated IMS bearing to boot - all causing high failure rates in these engines.

Add to that, they lost the Big One.

Ask Ten engineers and get at least three different "opinions"

-Ken

New car daddy, enjoy the truck Buster!
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 01:19 PM

Good points ARCO. cheers
Posted By: CT8

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
New car daddy, enjoy the truck Buster!
Nailed it.Arco.
Posted By: KGMtech

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:08 PM

German Engineers are not the only smart ones, however they think they are. I worked for a German company for 24 years, they think differently than North Americans, lots of planning and theory done before execution, versus the NA approach of getting into the problem, shirt sleeves rolled up, right away and finding a solution after multiple attempts.
Posted By: LoneRanger

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:11 PM

Well I guess it depends on the engine. Maybe motorcycle engines are unique, or at least Ducati's. Case in point, I broke-in my new 2013 Ducati myself, following recommendations in the manual which were not unlike most auto makers recommendations. After I totaled that one in a deer collision at 21,000 miles, I replaced it with a new 2016 of the same model and displacement but that model update became notorious for having a bit less real world punch to the "DVT" engine than the previous gen bikes like one Bambi destroyed for me. Before delivery, I called Commonwealth Motorcycles of Louisville and ordered a "Dyno Break-in" from Chad, the chief mechanic, master tech, and experienced race engine builder. That's where after unpacking and prepping the bike they put it on the dyno and do a specific regimen of runs once it's up to operating temp, for the final run they execute a full horsepower pull to yield a rwhp number for the buyer. Mine tested @144.1 if memory serves, Ducati having rated the 2016 1198cc DVT engine @ 160 crank hp, they ended up down rating it to 150 by model yr 2018 I think. These bikes are chain drive so figure about 10% loss. They did not provide a torque number but the factory rated that engine at 101 lb-ft I think. Well, if you ever followed the introduction of this all new update of the 1198cc which Ducati launched in 2016 models you would hear about a Notorious "flat spot" for power between 4000 - 5000 rpm (11,000 redline). Amid many complaints of lower real world power than the previous gen by other beta testers who bought the first year of that engine like me, I will say mine was a complete rocket that was clearly quicker than the previous gen model I'd owned. I attribute that to the dyno break-in. Now it's true that the engine might have fell part down the line due to this concept of heat flare during high rpm high load operation jouncing bearings and other moving parts, however I never got to find out due to totaling that one just under 5000 miles (gravel kickout on a curve). But that bike was a beast and oil level never budged in the sight glass, appeared not to consume a drop. Believe cylinders were Nikasil, but can't confirm.
Posted By: IndyFan

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:15 PM

With this never-ending controversial topic, it looks like there are actually some things upon which we all, including German engineers, agree:

-Vary the RPM during break-in.

-Rings need at least some time to seat.

-Other components need to break-in, as well.

-German engineers are methodical.

-Germany lost WWII.

-Before they ultimately lost, they put a pretty quick and sound beating on France.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:16 PM

Oddly enough, the two cars I babied did consume oils vs the two I did a few WOT that did not.

2001 Corolla - consumed oil - broken in gently (too much highway driving though and also known engine for oil consumption)
2004 Dodge Ram - Hemi - WOT - never consumed oil
2005 Accord - 2.4L - gently broken-in - consumed oil from new
2007 Mazda 3 - no oil consumption
2014 Mazda 3 - no oil consumption
2015 Mazda 3 - no oil consumption - all Mazdas broken in with several WOT

However, I attribute the oil loss due to the engine/piston oil control ring design, not how the engines were broken in as most of the aforementioned engines that consumed oil are known oil burners.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by IndyFan
With this never-ending controversial topic, it looks like there are actually some things upon which we all, including German engineers, agree:

-Vary the RPM during break-in.

-Rings need at least some time to seat.

-Other components need to break-in, as well.

-German engineers are methodical.

-Germany lost WWII.

-Before they ultimately lost, they put a pretty quick and sound beating on France.



LOL cheers
Posted By: JLTD

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:20 PM

Nice write up, thanks for that.
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 02:52 PM

So it seems they're circulating warm water in the engine to help speed up the warmup process and the dyno test run lasts about 30 minutes and they also go to 80% RPM in several increments. I would imagine the engine is at full operating temp after about 20 minutes of this. I guess since Porsche engines are packed in the back, the engine can get hotter in some rush hour traffic, but I don't believe in this engineer's statement "When we do our engine test, the metals inside the engine never reach the temperatures they would when driven on the street since the test session is fairly short.". Never is quite a bold statement. Driving on the streets can mean many, many different things.

And I guess that's the crux of the problem. There are so many variables that manufacturers simply want to play it safe. If they printed that hard break in was allowed, I bet some moron would go out on the highway and go 100mph because he needs to brake in his engine properly. People simply have different understanding and interpretation of things.

Manufacturers don't want to deal with this. So they say take it easy and set the acceptable oil consumption levels really high to minimize warranty expenses.
Posted By: Danno

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 03:11 PM

Interesting that on my 2019 JGC Hemi, they do recommend some WOT after initial 500 miles, to help in the break in.
Within legal speeds of course.....
Posted By: VNTS

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 03:17 PM

I follow Mototune method on the brand newones. Prefer to seat the rings better, and yes Jeep indirectly says breif full throttle acceleration within limits of the law and varying RPM constitutes good break in right in the owners manual for break in.
Posted By: StarCaller

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 03:54 PM

Quote
they think differently than North Americans, lots of planning and theory done before execution, versus the NA approach of getting into the problem, shirt sleeves rolled up, right away and finding a solution after multiple attempts.


with some machinery you have only one attempt /
Posted By: gfh77665

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 03:57 PM

My 2019 RAM advised "brief" acceleration to near the top of the RPM range (without redlining) then allowing the vehicle to decelerate back to low RPM's. I followed it, and did a preemptive OC at 1000 miles.
Posted By: bobdoo

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:00 PM

I read an article a long time ago, I think in Cycle Magazine, by Gordon Jennings, I think, that discussed ring breakin.

Heavy throttle application near the torque peak RPM, for a second or so at a time, 20 seconds off-throttle. This would literally break off the peaks left by honing the cylinder.

In some way, similar to mototune.

I have done this on over 10 cycles, 6 cars, 5 snowmobiles. I had a timing belt replaced on my 2000 Outback, 125,000ish miles. Asked the tech to check compression. He told me afterwards that he had to check comp twice, as he didn't believe how high and even it was. IIRC 135ish PSI.

OBTW, I test-drove this car when it was brand-new. Was trading-in a modded Mitsu Eclipse AWD turbo. Wanted to know if I could deal with half the power. Ran it to 125ish MPH WOT all the way. Subaru shock damping produces very severe porpoising at 125ish MPH!
Posted By: paoester

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by VNTS
I follow Mototune method on the brand newones. Prefer to seat the rings better, and yes Jeep indirectly says breif full throttle acceleration within limits of the law and varying RPM constitutes good break in right in the owners manual for break in.
"Brief" full throttle acceleration shouldn't be long enough to create hot spots you would think.

Still Volkswagen (2019 Tiguan OM) says:

Break-in period
A new engine must be carefully broken in during the first 1000 miles (1600 kilometers). During the first few hours of driving, the engine's internal friction is higher than later when all moving parts have been broken in.

Breaking in a new engine
Do not use full throttle.
Don't let the engine speed get above 2/3 of the maximum speed.
Do not tow a trailer.
Speed may gradually be increased to maximum permissible road and engine speed.
Engine life is influenced by how you drive the vehicle for the first 1000 miles (1600 km). Even afterwards, driving at moderate engine speeds, especially when the engine is cold, will tend to reduce engine wear and help the engine to last longer and go farther. But do not drive at an excessively low engine speed, either. Always downshift if the engine is not running smoothly.


I've already done the Jeep-Mototune method discussed above by VNTS, on my '19 Tiguan low-performance car. I hit high RPM briefly in its first 200 miles. I don't think it will hurt it. After all, the rings should twist in their seats, spending about ~equal time on all parts of the rounded face, where twist amount is governed by load & rpm ranges.
Some engine makers think moly cuts down on those hot areas.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by KrisZ
So it seems they're circulating warm water in the engine to help speed up the warmup process and the dyno test run lasts about 30 minutes and they also go to 80% RPM in several increments. I would imagine the engine is at full operating temp after about 20 minutes of this. I guess since Porsche engines are packed in the back, the engine can get hotter in some rush hour traffic, but I don't believe in this engineer's statement "When we do our engine test, the metals inside the engine never reach the temperatures they would when driven on the street since the test session is fairly short.". Never is quite a bold statement. Driving on the streets can mean many, many different things.

And I guess that's the crux of the problem. There are so many variables that manufacturers simply want to play it safe. If they printed that hard break in was allowed, I bet some moron would go out on the highway and go 100mph because he needs to brake in his engine properly. People simply have different understanding and interpretation of things.

Manufacturers don't want to deal with this. So they say take it easy and set the acceptable oil consumption levels really high to minimize warranty expenses.


That is a very good point. I agree.

I find it interesting too that Nissan goes by 1,200 miles. Where did they get that number from? LOL. What if someone does a few WOT at 950 miles? Why not 1,000 miles? Weird.

I just got back from an appointment and just hit 1,200 miles. I gave it a good WOT wink
Posted By: VNTS

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by paoester
Originally Posted by VNTS
I follow Mototune method on the brand newones. Prefer to seat the rings better, and yes Jeep indirectly says breif full throttle acceleration within limits of the law and varying RPM constitutes good break in right in the owners manual for break in.
"Brief" full throttle acceleration shouldn't be long enough to create hot spots you would think.

Still Volkswagen (2019 Tiguan OM) says:

Break-in period
A new engine must be carefully broken in during the first 1000 miles (1600 kilometers). During the first few hours of driving, the engine's internal friction is higher than later when all moving parts have been broken in.

Breaking in a new engine
Do not use full throttle.
Don't let the engine speed get above 2/3 of the maximum speed.
Do not tow a trailer.
Speed may gradually be increased to maximum permissible road and engine speed.
Engine life is influenced by how you drive the vehicle for the first 1000 miles (1600 km). Even afterwards, driving at moderate engine speeds, especially when the engine is cold, will tend to reduce engine wear and help the engine to last longer and go farther. But do not drive at an excessively low engine speed, either. Always downshift if the engine is not running smoothly.


I've already done the Jeep-Mototune method discussed above by VNTS, on my '19 Tiguan low-performance car. I hit high RPM briefly in its first 200 miles. I don't think it will hurt it. After all, the rings should twist in their seats, spending about ~equal time on all parts of the rounded face, where twist amount is governed by load & rpm ranges.
Some engine makers think moly cuts down on those hot areas.


from jeep, 2015 Manual

ENGINE BREAK-IN RECOMMENDATIONS
A long break-in period is not required for the engine and
drivetrain (transmission and axle) in your vehicle.
Drive moderately during the first 300 miles (500 km).

While cruising, brief full-throttle acceleration within the
limits of local traffic laws contributes to a good break-in.
Wide-open throttle acceleration in low gear can be detrimental
and should be avoided.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:50 PM

With what we know, I will say that lugging the engine is far worse than a few WOT's.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by KGMtech
German Engineers are not the only smart ones, however they think they are. I worked for a German company for 24 years, they think differently than North Americans, lots of planning and theory done before execution, versus the NA approach of getting into the problem, shirt sleeves rolled up, right away and finding a solution after multiple attempts.


IIRC a Toyota spokesperson essentially said the same thing when he spoke about their collaboration with BMW on the Supra.
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by buster
With what we know, I will say that lugging the engine is far worse than a few WOT's.


Yes, I agree. I would also add compression braking as a benefit.

And with today's wide spread ratio automatics and CVTs, many engines not only spin at very low RPM, but they also don't do any compression braking, unless in sport mode or manually prompted.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 05:02 PM

True Kris. I took the Subaru out last night and put it into manual mode to put some moderate load on the engine.
Posted By: DGXR

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 05:31 PM

Porsche engineer's statements contradict the ages-old method of doing a few full heat cycles, this is probably adapting to modern manufacturing and engineering principles. I keep moderate loads and varying RPM during the first few hundred miles, doing an early oil change, then gradually increasing to maximum power and redline runs at around 2,000 miles.

Deceleration (i.e. high vacuum in intake manifold and cylinders) plays a crucial role during the wear-in process.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 05:31 PM

For the Nissan, the truck already had 63 miles on it. I was told the test drives are all the same (same one I went on), in which case there is little room for abuse. From the time I picked up the truck to present, I did all short trip/stop and go type driving. I kept rpms between 2k and 4k. I may have hit 5k once. Today I hit Nissan's 1,200 mile break-in mark and did 2 WOT's. At this point what is done is done. I saw no noticeable oil consumption the first 1k miles. EDGE has been in the last 200 miles.

I'm glad I came across this article though. It was the only article (FWIW) where an actual automotive engineer gave some insight into "why" they recommend not exceeding 4k. Like most things in life, moderation is often the best bet.
Posted By: CT8

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by DGXR
Porsche engineer's statements contradict the ages-old method of doing a few full heat cycles, this is probably adapting to modern manufacturing and engineering principles. I keep moderate loads and varying RPM during the first few hundred miles, doing an early oil change, then gradually increasing to maximum power and redline runs at around 2,000 miles.

Deceleration (i.e. high vacuum in intake manifold and cylinders) plays a crucial role during the wear-in process.

How do diesel engines break in? I worked at a forklift dealership that leased forklifts, fleet cars, vans, pickups and class 8 vehicles . Engines break in fine without any voodoo. Travis ' post is gospel.
Posted By: LoneRanger

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by buster
With what we know, I will say that lugging the engine is far worse than a few WOT's.


Yes, I agree. I would also add compression braking as a benefit.

And with today's wide spread ratio automatics and CVTs, many engines not only spin at very low RPM, but they also don't do any compression braking, unless in sport mode or manually prompted.


Generally referred to as "vacuum pulls." If you can find a road with lots of foot hills and slip the automatic transmission into sport mode or manual mode so it rows down through the gears on decel and engine brakes, that is the Shining City on a Hill to strive for, for nice break-in runs. Goose it up the grade, let Sport Mode engine brake it on the down hill side. Lather, rinse, repeat. Living in the flat lands, could not find such a stretch of road for the GMC and F-150, had to settle for acel/decel runs on long sparsely driven flat roads, a certain stretch of a particular county road saw a lot of our two new vehicles this spring and summer.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by LoneRanger
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by buster
With what we know, I will say that lugging the engine is far worse than a few WOT's.


Yes, I agree. I would also add compression braking as a benefit.

And with today's wide spread ratio automatics and CVTs, many engines not only spin at very low RPM, but they also don't do any compression braking, unless in sport mode or manually prompted.


Generally referred to as "vacuum pulls." If you can find a road with lots of foot hills and slip the automatic transmission into sport mode or manual mode so it rows down through the gears on decel and engine brakes, that is the Shining City on a Hill to strive for, for nice break-in runs. Goose it up the grade, let Sport Mode engine brake it on the down hill side. Lather, rinse, repeat. Living in the flat lands, could not find such a stretch of road for the GMC and F-150, had to settle for acel/decel runs on long sparsely driven flat roads, a certain stretch of a particular county road saw a lot of our two new vehicles this spring and summer.



thumbsup

South Jersey is pretty flat too. I'd have to go up to centra/north Jersey or Pennsylvania to find hills.
Posted By: loneryder

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 08:10 PM

I can imagine how frustrating for a new Porsche owner to have to baby it for 2k miles. When I bought my new Harley at Black Hills HD, it was really hard to vary the engine speeds on those wide open roads out there. I was on the 4 lane road going out of Rapid City to Mt. Rushmore. I had been driving the speed limit for a while and it was time to "vary the speed". I was going about 45 and cars were passing me looking at me like I was crazy. Very un natural.LOL
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by DGXR
Porsche engineer's statements contradict the ages-old method of doing a few full heat cycles, this is probably adapting to modern manufacturing and engineering principles. I keep moderate loads and varying RPM during the first few hundred miles, doing an early oil change, then gradually increasing to maximum power and redline runs at around 2,000 miles.

Deceleration (i.e. high vacuum in intake manifold and cylinders) plays a crucial role during the wear-in process.

How do diesel engines break in? I worked at a forklift dealership that leased forklifts, fleet cars, vans, pickups and class 8 vehicles . Engines break in fine without any voodoo. Travis ' post is gospel.


The old German who was chief of cylinder kit engineering at Cummins when I worked there swore that if a new diesel engine was not ramped up to full power within 20 minutes of first start, it would not break in properly.
Posted By: willbur

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/11/19 11:44 PM

Non pressure fed IMS bearing had nothing to do with it. Undersize bearings that could not handle the load was the culprit. Many Porsche owners changed oil at the recommended OCI of 15K miles which let acid accumulate and eat those undersize bearings, too. Toyota actually designed that car! Porsche needed help to stay alive and asked them to help. Strange world.
Posted By: Chris142

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by CT8

How do diesel engines break in? .

I used to get to bring brand new trucks to the yard. I would ride to vegas or Laughlin,NV with another driver. I would take possession of the truck there (saved on California taxes). I would drive over to the yard they had in NV. Hook to a set of trailers ,load them to the max legal 80000lbs and bring it home.
Posted By: PWMDMD

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 11:06 AM

The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.


That’s the million dollar question. We don’t know.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.



Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second.

Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.



Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second.

Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).


Are you in the break it in hard camp?
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.



Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second.

Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).


Are you in the break it in hard camp?


Hard / Soft is somewhat subjective.

I'd best describe it as methodical engine loading during both acceleration and deceleration across the rpm range while for the most part staying within the max rpm suggested by the automaker.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by DGXR
Porsche engineer's statements contradict the ages-old method of doing a few full heat cycles, this is probably adapting to modern manufacturing and engineering principles. I keep moderate loads and varying RPM during the first few hundred miles, doing an early oil change, then gradually increasing to maximum power and redline runs at around 2,000 miles.

Deceleration (i.e. high vacuum in intake manifold and cylinders) plays a crucial role during the wear-in process.


Right but can you imagine the potential liability by recommending such a thing? "Porsche said I should break-in my engine by downshifting, I didn't know that downshifting into 3 at 80 mph would cause engine damage! My $500/hr attorney is going to have a field day with this."
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.



Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second.

Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).


Are you in the break it in hard camp?


Hard / Soft is somewhat subjective.

I'd best describe it as methodical engine loading during both acceleration and deceleration across the rpm range while for the most part staying within the max rpm suggested by the automaker.


Great point. I’m with you as I feel that is a smart approach.
Posted By: DoubleWasp

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 04:51 PM

There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving.

Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving.

Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.



Didn't that Mototunes guy claim the exact opposite with regards to motorcycle engines?
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/12/19 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
There was a team that built two duplicate motorcycle engines. One broken in "hard", and the other broken in according to manufacturer recommendation. There was no difference between the two engines after breaking in and driving.

Just follow manufacturer and you'll be fine.



Didn't that Mototunes guy claim the exact opposite with regards to motorcycle engines?


Yes.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 01:31 PM

Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear.

We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill.

Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect.

It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".


It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.
Posted By: Jarlaxle

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
The real question - does any of the break-in procedure really matter in the real world? I've owned many many cars from many many manufactures and I have never followed the break-in procedure. I drive the cars, I've never had an engine/transmission/moving part give me an issue related to improper break-in, I sell the car and I get a new car.



Poor break-in can result in oil consumption and/or the engine will not reach its full potential. The first you'd notice but the vast majority if owners would not notice the second.

Of course there's engine break-in, there's vehicle break-in and finally driver break-in (I added this piece).


FWIW, one of the strongest-running 5.0 Mustangs I ever saw was probably run in the hardest: it was a police car! I was told by several engine builders that is a GOOD thing: run a new engine hard to break it in. Don't abuse it, but DEFINITELY don't baby it. One also said to do plenty of compression braking with it.
Posted By: Jarlaxle

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cujet
Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear.

We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill.

Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect.

It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".


It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.

For decades, Porsche top-ended every new car right off the assembly line.
Posted By: DriveHard

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 02:36 PM

Something that is frustrating to me...but I understand...

As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market?

Another thought...there is no break-in for off highway equipment (tractors, dozers, skid steers, back-hoes, etc.). You buy it and put it straight to work. Those machines see duty cycles that are orders of magnitude greater than what a consumer grade car or truck would see. I realize the design margin is a bit higher for these machines...but they not only work harder, but for many thousands of hours longer than a car you or I might drive.

Personally when I get a new (anything) with an engine, I explore the rev-range fully from the get-go. I only use part throttle for the first several hours...but it doesn't take long to be using the full power capabilities of the engine. I think the key is to make sure it is fully warmed up, and to avoid full throttle at less than 50% redline.

To this day, I won't go over 50% throttle and 50% of redline until an engine is fully warmed up...but I NEVER baby and engine after it is warmed up and ready to go. I have NEVER owned an oil burner...ever.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cujet
Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear.

We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill.

Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect.

It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".


It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.


Hard to argue with what you experienced. You saw it firsthand. I'm more of a believer in giving it a decent amount of throttle from the beginning. I think the issue can be when you run an engine at full throttle for "long" periods of time. That can create excess heat which is what some say the problem is. Hot spots can create uneven wear patterns.

I have to say from my experience, the cars that consumed oil were the ones I broke-in too gently. However, it's hard to say because they were also known to consume oil due to the low tension piston rings (Honda/Toyota).

I picked up my truck with 63 miles. Drove it home for about 30 miles varying the rpms from 3-4k, often giving it 40% throttle. I did the same up until 1,200 miles which is what Nissan suggests. I did a few WOT runs this week. So far no oil consumption. The 4.0L though isn't known to burn oil.

I think a common sense approach is best. The worst approach is to baby it. If you go hard on it, I believe letting it cool down is what you should do.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by DriveHard
Something that is frustrating to me...but I understand...

As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market?

Another thought...there is no break-in for off highway equipment (tractors, dozers, skid steers, back-hoes, etc.). You buy it and put it straight to work. Those machines see duty cycles that are orders of magnitude greater than what a consumer grade car or truck would see. I realize the design margin is a bit higher for these machines...but they not only work harder, but for many thousands of hours longer than a car you or I might drive.

Personally when I get a new (anything) with an engine, I explore the rev-range fully from the get-go. I only use part throttle for the first several hours...but it doesn't take long to be using the full power capabilities of the engine. I think the key is to make sure it is fully warmed up, and to avoid full throttle at less than 50% redline.

To this day, I won't go over 50% throttle and 50% of redline until an engine is fully warmed up...but I NEVER baby and engine after it is warmed up and ready to go. I have NEVER owned an oil burner...ever.


Makes sense. I agree.

What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by buster


What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.


Liability.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by buster


What irritates me is why don't automotive engineers that write the manuals ACTUALLY tell us their reasoning? It's ridiculous. It either is good or not good.


Liability.


I think you're right. Someone on here years ago had a relative that was a Toyota engineer and that's exactly what he said.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 04:33 PM

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/busting-engine-break-in-myth/

An interesting test of two identical engines. No difference in wear, compression, condition or oil color despite two vastly different break in methods.

The motorcycle test did bring up a very good set of points though. Taking it easy on a motorcycle for the first few rides, when new gives you time to learn how it turns, handles, shifts and stops along with time to scrub in the tires.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 04:56 PM

Does this apply to automotive engines too?
Posted By: Pew

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by DriveHard
As a market leading manufacturer of hydraulic pumps, we know EXACTLY the best way to break in our products for both efficiency and longevity. We work with our customers to make sure when they do testing that they either follow our procedure, or we break them in before we send them. Why on Earth is this such a secret for such a HUGE market?.


I'm thinking it's because it's such a huge market with restrictions that can be extreme and you need to kind of make a one-size-fits-all car unless you're a manufacture like McLaren or Ferrari that targets specific people. You have 70 year old Aunt Karen that goes out and buys a Mustang GT and doesn't care (or even know of) the break-in procedure and takes the car out to the local grocery store and church. Then you have Billy Bad-[censored] on the other spectrum that does a burn out the moment he gets out of the dealer lot. Then all the manufacturing process and hands that have assembled the car, who knows what is what.
Posted By: The_Eric

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cujet
Years ago, I worked for a company that was involved in camshaft development (and a second company that tested 2 stroke marine racing engines) . They dyno stuff was on the automotive side, I assembled engines with OEM parts and the dyno team ran them through a series of tests. Mostly for emissions and of course to meet target output. My job was to assemble the engines to a specification, time the camshafts and install on the dyno. I also disassembled the engines and measured components for wear.

We took no care to break in engines. We started them up, warmed them up to 160 degrees coolant temperature and let-er-rip. Often for long periods of time at specific RPM's at full boost. The parts got hotter than they would in any normal car. So I don't believe the Porsche explanation above. The only thing that could possibly match the loading is towing a heavy load up a long hill.

Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect.

It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".



I agree. A fresh engine's parts will remain dimensionally stable for many thousands of miles.

I think that a lot of what we hear about can be traced back the days of Model As and Ts where machine work and metallurgy weren't as good as they are today. Just look at the babbitt bearings that they used. Machine them tight - up to about 120lbs rotating torque to turn it over (like so tight the starter couldn't always turn a fresh motor over) and let it wear itself in to where it was happy. Obviously you wouldn't want to take one of those straight to the races.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/13/19 09:27 PM

Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/19/19 12:11 PM

Talked to a guy the other day. Bought his truck brand new and on the test drive he dropped it into 3rd and floored it. Bought the truck and 7 years later has 140k trouble free miles on it.
Posted By: stockrex

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/19/19 03:36 PM

my 2.5 salty cents -

Bought honda fit 2010 brand new with 4 miles on it.

broke it in using the motor cycle engine breakin formula - drive it like you stole it.

Drove it 100k miles and idled probably for another 50 miles worth.

Never using a drop of oil, changed oil 5k to 7 k using synthetic from day 1, filter every 20k miles.

That is my very own long term case study.

I respectfully do not agree with the youtube video as my experience does not match his hypothesis.
Posted By: SteveSRT8

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/19/19 05:41 PM

I have had quite a few cars and trucks and have always believed in warming up a new car carefully and then let 'er rip! Just avoid first gear and otherwise get on it.

Great example is my sig car, many 6.1 owners gripe about oil usage. The dipstick reading never changes on this one, even after track days with 300 degrees indicated oil temp.

The key is to remember you are breaking in a new driveline as well, that's why you may wish to avoid lower gears. My BIL is a 3rd gen expert machinist and he feels that the rotating assembly in a new typical production engine is either right or wrong, and the rings are done breaking in very quickly as well. No reason to fear long pulls in the upper gears as it insures good ring seal.

So enjoy the power if you got any, and feel the comfort of full warranty coverage!
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/19/19 05:53 PM

My experience matches what both of you said.

All Mazda 3’s and the Ram 5.7L were given WOT early on with no oil use in between OCI.
Posted By: Eddie

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/19/19 08:49 PM

I go with the manufactures recommendations in general. Warm up the engine and drive normally with brief heavy throttle acceleration, not over 3,000 rpm and no trailer pulling or steady speed driving for ~ 600 to 1,000 miles. From my own UOAs and hundreds of others we know that wear values stabilize at 4-8,000 miles, which indicates some polishing and burnishing continues long after the 1K. I realize there may be some exceptions but, I don't think we'll find them in our daily drivers. Ed
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/24/19 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie
I go with the manufactures recommendations in general. Warm up the engine and drive normally with brief heavy throttle acceleration, not over 3,000 rpm and no trailer pulling or steady speed driving for ~ 600 to 1,000 miles. From my own UOAs and hundreds of others we know that wear values stabilize at 4-8,000 miles, which indicates some polishing and burnishing continues long after the 1K. I realize there may be some exceptions but, I don't think we'll find them in our daily drivers. Ed


3k rpms is on the low side. As I said before all the cars I’ve had that were broken-in with initial WOT never consumed any oil. The cars that were broken in gentle did. However it could be just due to the engine type. For my truck I bought it with 63 miles and from there followed Nissan’s break-in procedure. I may have hit 5k rpms once or twice but I kept rpms varied between 2-4K. Time will tell if it consumes any oil. I’m at 1,600 miles now with 600 on Edge EP.
Posted By: red7404

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/25/19 11:11 PM

i cant disagree with any one here. but 5 years ago i was playing with radio control cars. 2 cycle on methanol , nitro methane. there was a BIG controversy about how to break in a new engine. most people said to break in you used mid RPM with a number of mid power runs. with heat cool downs at the end of each tank full. but i read that in the past a long time ago they would just idle for hours. i used this method and it did fine.
Posted By: xxch4osxx

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/25/19 11:54 PM

When I bought my Ram new, I left the dealership and got out on the big highway and after it was up to operating temp for a few minutes, I dropped the hammer and gave it a few 5500rpm pulls. So far, with 48,000miles on it now, it still uses no oil between changes.

Big trucks like what I drive at work are given no special break-in procedure when new. When all the wetlines and everything else is installed, we go pick them up, bring them to the yard and add a few extras like lights, stainless etc and then they are off to work. Pulling 136,000lbs gross weight right from day one, full throttle 55lbs boost all day every day. Never seem to have any issues with oil burning with them.
Posted By: CT8

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/28/19 03:22 PM

Has anyone seen how the cars are loaded and unloaded onto the transportation vehicles or driven by the hikers? We seem to have the luxury of worrying about things that have gains of inconsequential increments.
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/30/19 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by CT8
Has anyone seen how the cars are loaded and unloaded onto the transportation vehicles or driven by the hikers? We seem to have the luxury of worrying about things that have gains of inconsequential increments.


I haven't but I've heard about it....
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/30/19 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by xxch4osxx
When I bought my Ram new, I left the dealership and got out on the big highway and after it was up to operating temp for a few minutes, I dropped the hammer and gave it a few 5500rpm pulls. So far, with 48,000miles on it now, it still uses no oil between changes.

Big trucks like what I drive at work are given no special break-in procedure when new. When all the wetlines and everything else is installed, we go pick them up, bring them to the yard and add a few extras like lights, stainless etc and then they are off to work. Pulling 136,000lbs gross weight right from day one, full throttle 55lbs boost all day every day. Never seem to have any issues with oil burning with them.


I did that with my 05 Ram and it also never consumed oil. Thing is, many don't do this and also never see oil consumption..
Posted By: Pew

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 09/30/19 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by CT8
Has anyone seen how the cars are loaded and unloaded onto the transportation vehicles or driven by the hikers? We seem to have the luxury of worrying about things that have gains of inconsequential increments.


I haven't but I've heard about it....


Yep, a friend of mine used to be a car hauler. When they got the new Civic Type R, Camaro ZL1s, etc you can pretty much bet the yard monkeys romped on them around the lot.
Posted By: Zolton

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/08/19 02:28 AM

Locking the AT in gear, "Sport Mode" or Tiptronic or whatever is the best single tip for break-in.
Posted By: Zolton

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/08/19 02:40 AM

My understanding is the IMS is a sealed unit, with metallurgy that is not corrosion-resistant. The "failure" is when the seal pops off exposing the bearing to air. In cars that are frequently driven, the bearing gets splash-lubed and functions ok. HD truck oil helps, with it's own anti-corrosion additives. In a climate that is salty air, or parked outside with lots of condensation of morning dew, the bearing will corrode.

Many of the failures are in the past, the problem cars self-destructed. Best to know the history of the vehicle you might purchase. I had one with zero problems. It was garaged.
Posted By: willbur

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/08/19 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zolton
My understanding is the IMS is a sealed unit, with metallurgy that is not corrosion-resistant. The "failure" is when the seal pops off exposing the bearing to air. In cars that are frequently driven, the bearing gets splash-lubed and functions ok. HD truck oil helps, with it's own anti-corrosion additives. In a climate that is salty air, or parked outside with lots of condensation of morning dew, the bearing will corrode.

Many of the failures are in the past, the problem cars self-destructed. Best to know the history of the vehicle you might purchase. I had one with zero problems. It was garaged.


Air corrosion now? That's a new one. The list of explanations continue to grow! Those particular bearings are common off the self industrial ball bearings used in a vast array of equipment under many conditions. Its odd the larger single or double row bearings composed of the same metallurgy did not experience this corrosion and subsequent failure; leading to the conclusion that failure was due to undersized bearings. The earliest/simplest remedy was to preemptively "pop off" the back bearing seal when doing the clutch to increase lubrication and prevent trapping old contaminated oil inside the bearing. Internet hysteria fed by bearing purveyors and unknowing forums led many to needlessly replace these bearings.
Posted By: Rat407

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/08/19 08:00 PM

How to break-in an engine thread is as bad as what oil should I run thread. LOL

Every vehicle I have ever owned from brand new I just drove it off the dealer lot like I drove the trad in vehicle. No issues and no oil consumptions on the trade ins.. I still have my 2002 Silverado with 192k and it runs great and uses a qt in 8k miles and that is using a 0w-20 in an engine calling for 5w-30.
Posted By: Zolton

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 07:18 AM

I guess internal engine corrosion isn't a thing, and you know it for a fact because you did a comparative analysis of all types of bearings, with full documentation. LOL
Posted By: Lowflyer

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Cujet
It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".

It's interesting to note that aircraft piston engine break-in includes full power takeoff and climb. Monitoring temps and watching the CHT's come down after a few minutes. At which point the rings are said to be seated and break in complete.
I heard Honda says to authorised EU dealers, exactly to authorised "garages": Please dont change for the first time our factory oil on Type R (solely?) until ~6250 miles.

Therefore all everyone (EU) is thinking, Honda fills in the factory oil with littlebit differently addpackage. For better break-in.

Well...
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.heise.de%2Ftr%2Fartikel%2FWie-geschmiert-1369325.html

Also heard, Porsche use for first 911 km smile2 a second, break-in, engine map (?)
Posted By: RDY4WAR

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 10:28 AM

That's a great article. It's an interesting perspective for sure. I personally want to get my engines into that high heat and pressure range, but my engines are also older V8 engines with looser clearances and aren't meant to last 500k miles.

I use break-in specific oil, usually Driven BR30 or BR40. I crank the engine over on a stand for at least 30 seconds to get oil moving through the engine. I start it up and run it steady at 2000 rpm for 5 minutes to get it heated up. Then I load the dyno and make low rpm, half throttle sweeps from 2000-4000 rpm, never letting the rpm fall below 2000 rpm. I do this for just 4-5 pulls. At this point, I consider the break-in to be done. If everything is fine to this point, I go straight into wide open throttle, max rpm tuning. The only time the rpm is limited after that point is if the tuning is too far off at higher rpm to keep going and we need to creep up on it. It usually takes just 3-5 pulls to get the tune pretty close. Then the engine is shut off and taken off the dyno. The oil and filter are changed amd the torque is checked on all critical bolts and studs to ensure they are still all where they should be, lash is checked, and compression and leakdown is done. I consider it a fail if the leakdown is greater than 3%.
Then the engine is sent to the customer or installed in the car.

Many of these engines don't even see the dyno time. They do the 2000 rpm run-in on a stand, are put in the car, taken to the track, and beaten on immediately.
Posted By: SubieRubyRoo

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cujet
Not once did I see something wrong internally. Bearings, rings, cylinders and valves always looked perfect.

It is hard to convey just how insignificant any wear was, and how brutal the dyno sessions were. All this talk about break in really leads me to believe that rings "seat" rapidly under load and then normal rates of wear occur. No other parts "break in".


Exactly my take on this. Considering how cylinder stones, techniques, and finish have evolved especially in the last 15 years, along with different ring materials, thinner rings, and things like dry lubricants, there is no more real "break in" period after the rings have seated, which is essentially done after the first 15-20 minutes of running.

We are not dealing with cast iron rings rubbing on poorly honed cast iron cylinders; the number and magnitude of asperities just doesn't exist like in engines built 20-30+ years ago. There is some minor "bedding" of the bearings, but that's about it. I really think the break-in period is there just to let dumb people accommodate their brains to the new vehicle's behavior; power, handling, braking, etc. Recalibrating their brains to the new, different machine.
Posted By: willbur

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Zolton
I guess internal engine corrosion isn't a thing, and you know it for a fact because you did a comparative analysis of all types of bearings, with full documentation. LOL


And I suppose you did...? Weight of evidence strongly indicates otherwise LOL
Posted By: Lowflyer

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR
That's a great article. It's an interesting perspective for sure. I personally want to get my engines into that high heat and pressure range, but my engines are also older V8 engines with looser clearances and aren't meant to last 500k miles.
The thing with the "third solid" between metallic friction partners is a very freaky thing.
But that works ONLY for very first miles. Mean, on virginal metallic surfaces.

Brand new car:
- drive it for 5-10 miles (no more!) "delicate"
- the next 300 miles a bit sharper as "normally" (a bit)
- above, next 300 miles, normally
(Normally, mean "civilized", but not with the focus for MPG)

- after these ~600 miles, the process is completed. You can now drive the next 1000 miles gentle
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/09/19 04:05 PM

Quote
Then I load the dyno and make low rpm, half throttle sweeps from 2000-4000 rpm, never letting the rpm fall below 2000 rpm. I do this for just 4-5 pulls.


I think that is a sound method.

I agree. I think the most important thing to take from this is just don't keep the engine at a steady RPM or speed.
Posted By: Zolton

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/10/19 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by willbur
Originally Posted by Zolton
I guess internal engine corrosion isn't a thing, and you know it for a fact because you did a comparative analysis of all types of bearings, with full documentation. LOL


And I suppose you did...? Weight of evidence strongly indicates otherwise LOL


www.nskamericas.com/en/services/troubleshooting/damage-by-type/rust-and-corrosion.html

https://www.nskamericas.com/en/services/troubleshooting/damage-by-type/rust-and-corrosion.html

Quote
Rust and Corrosion Possible Causes

Quote
Formation of water droplets due to condensation of moisture
boxing

Except the weight of your evidence is zero. My story makes more sense, not that Porsche under-designed the shaft bearing smirk2, because Porsche's fix is simply a few tiny parts; a larger seal and bigger flange to hold it on....so it doesn't pop off. LOL

Posted By: willbur

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/10/19 12:58 PM

Fly weight answer. Why am I wasting my time...
Posted By: buster

Re: Engine Break-In - Found the answer - 10/11/19 05:17 PM

So far no oil consumption on the Frontier. OE fill and EDGE both.

Bought it with 63 miles. Followed Nissan's recommendation up to 1,200 miles. I did vary rpms a lot and hit 4k several times and 5k once. I didn't floor it until I hit 1,200. I've been flooring it several times a day since. Running great. No complaints so far.
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