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Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce.

Posted By: PimTac

Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 08:04 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2018/06/12/t...fitability.html




The bloom is off the Rose for Tesla.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 08:30 PM

"Given that Tesla has never made an annual profit in the almost 15 years since we have existed, profit is obviously not what motivates us."

I would be interested to hear what is long term business model is. Considering the fact he obviously isn't interested in profit?
Posted By: JustN89

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460
"Given that Tesla has never made an annual profit in the almost 15 years since we have existed, profit is obviously not what motivates us."

I would be interested to hear what is long term business model is. Considering the fact he obviously isn't interested in profit?

Profit's not what is motivating this... staying afloat past this calendar year is the motivation.

I'm not a Tesla fan boy and honestly don't think I'd ever own a full electric vehicle unless I didn't have any other choices, but I have been pulling for them to do well. At this point though, it just feels like if the Model 3 fails to meet it's lofty expectations (sales, production, etc) then Tesla has nothing left to offer their investors.
Posted By: pandus13

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 09:12 PM

Now, would Tesla problems reflect on the SpaceX side?
Posted By: Kestas

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 10:12 PM

How will they choose who gets laid off?
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: JustN89
At this point though, it just feels like if the Model 3 fails to meet it's lofty expectations (sales, production, etc) then Tesla has nothing left to offer their investors.


I hate to see ANY American business fail. But the fact is if they, (Tesla), haven't turned a profit in 15 years, it's doubtful they're ever going to. Electric cars, especially the really nice models that Tesla sells, are much too expensive for what they offer. Namely very limited range. Coupled with too much downtime for recharging.

Private business has got to be profitable in order to survive. Space-X is in much the same boat. They have incredible rockets that can do fantastic things. But if they can't do these things at some level of profitability, they will not survive. No business can run in the red forever. Regardless of how big of a dog and pony show they can put on with their products.
Posted By: ecotourist

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 11:16 PM

I just got back from a trip to Norway. Tesla S models are quite common there. And (strangely for a company that doesn't use a dealership system) I saw 2 Tesla dealerships.

Teslas are very expensive there but have other advantages - free charging, free parking, possibly avoidance of highway tolls, and a few others I can't recall. As high end cars are quite common there anyway, gasoline is very expensive, parking is expensive and road tolls are a regular feature, they might make sense.
Posted By: PandaBear

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 11:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Kestas
How will they choose who gets laid off?


That's easy. In our industry there's a thing called Stack Ranking.

Your managers or directors will rank the people they manage, on either a price performance ratio, or just who is delivering result better, or who they don't get along with.
Posted By: Marco620

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 11:48 PM

(Tesla) crush banana


oilburner Sticking with my petrol car.
Posted By: PandaBear

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/12/18 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460
"Given that Tesla has never made an annual profit in the almost 15 years since we have existed, profit is obviously not what motivates us."

I would be interested to hear what is long term business model is. Considering the fact he obviously isn't interested in profit?


Most of these unicorn companies are there to grow, and as long as they are growing to justify the "valuation" they are asking for, VC investors will fund another round, or some investors will buy their stocks.

The problem is sooner or later they have to deliver result, and when they don't, the only way forward would be a stock valuation crash or a white knight (i.e. Tencent recently) has to show up to pump more money in there.

I think Tesla would do OK in the long term as it is getting close to too big to fail in the battery market. They are a battery company also happen to build cars. In the short term however, their stock can be for a roller coaster ride.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 12:16 AM

The riff is for management only. The factory workers are not affected.
There are lotsa open positions for factory work...
They are ramping to 5,000 Model 3's per week.

Tesla Mag Riff and Model 3 Production
Posted By: Carmudgeon

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 12:59 AM

Originally Posted By: pandus13
Now, would Tesla problems reflect on the SpaceX side?


SpaceX is a separate company and privately owned. It has capable management (with a proper COO, unlike Tesla) and doesn't have to answer to anyone expect its private shareholders.

Tesla's problems could affect it indirectly, if they would prevent Musk from being able to plow more of his personal wealth into SpaceX, but there would probably be other investors to take up the slack, and Musk's controlling interest in the company is actually worth more than his Tesla holdings as it stands.

If Tesla were to go under, it would affect Musk personally, but not SpaceX directly.
Posted By: Y_K

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 01:09 AM

Agree on COO part, the man should have hired a real COO for Tesla 15 years ago, instead he fancies himself capable doing anything by micromanaging
Posted By: Danno

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 02:22 AM

Originally Posted By: ecotourist
I just got back from a trip to Norway. Tesla S models are quite common there. And (strangely for a company that doesn't use a dealership system) I saw 2 Tesla dealerships.

Teslas are very expensive there but have other advantages - free charging, free parking, possibly avoidance of highway tolls, and a few others I can't recall. As high end cars are quite common there anyway, gasoline is very expensive, parking is expensive and road tolls are a regular feature, they might make sense.


"free charging, free parking, possibly avoidance of highway tolls"
The "free ride" will change as soon as everyone not on the "free ride" gets tired of paying for it.
No matter where this is Norway, North America, etc.
Posted By: Lolvoguy

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 02:29 AM

Originally Posted By: billt460
haven't turned a profit in 15 years, it's doubtful they're ever going to.


When Hyundai started offering Korean cars in N. America in the mid 80's, nobody thought they'd make it either.
Fast forward 20 years and they are gaining market share over their Japanese and American rivals.

The world wants something different, new and fresh (I don't, but I'm not in the majority) and Tesla is willing to offer it.
Only a matter of time until these alternate fuel vehicles become the norm.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:02 AM

Tesla offered free charging on the Model S for life. Does not apply to the Model 3.
Model S Free Charging

Electric cars and/or fuel cell are the future.
Here in Silicon Valley Teslas, Bolts, Leafs and the others sell like hotcakes.
My company has perhaps 50 charging stations that are subsidized.
Something like 40 cents per hour and you get a text when charged.
You need to move your car for the next guy.
Posted By: cheesepuffs

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
Originally Posted By: billt460
haven't turned a profit in 15 years, it's doubtful they're ever going to.


When Hyundai started offering Korean cars in N. America in the mid 80's, nobody thought they'd make it either.
Fast forward 20 years and they are gaining market share over their Japanese and American rivals.

The world wants something different, new and fresh (I don't, but I'm not in the majority) and Tesla is willing to offer it.
Only a matter of time until these alternate fuel vehicles become the norm.


Matter of time, but the question is how much time. Five years, or fifty years? Back in 2008, truck and SUV sales tanked, and fuel economy was the big push. Fast forward ten years and gas is cheap and few people can justify the trade offs of an electric vehicle, and truck sales are so strong that companies are stopping the sale of their car models, like Ford Fusion and Taurus, Chevy Impala, Dodge Dart, etc. Traditional internal combustion engines are better than ever and making alternative fuel vehicles a tough sell at the moment.
Posted By: OneEyeJack

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:12 AM

It's going to be interesting when these Tesla cars get some miles on them and people go to the dealer for service. ?Without competition I wonder how good or reasonable the prices will be. A Bolt owner might enjoy and advantage here with more dealers and competition for their business.
Posted By: cheesepuffs

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:18 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Tesla offered free charging on the Model S for life. Does not apply to the Model 3.
Model S Free Charging

Electric cars and/or fuel cell are the future.
Here in Silicon Valley Teslas, Bolts, Leafs and the others sell like hotcakes.
My company has perhaps 50 charging stations that are subsidized.
Something like 40 cents per hour and you get a text when charged.
You need to move your car for the next guy.


Donít take this the wrong way, but the demographic of Silicon Valley does not match that of middle America. Fuel cell has such a huge infrastructure hurdle that itíll never happen across the whole country. Itís decently strong in Japan, but only because their government is subsidizing it. The free market doesnít support hydrogen powered cars and we have been hearing that fuel cell is the future for fifteen years and itís still so niche. EVs only sell to average consumers when they can get subsidized rebates, and now that those rebates are running dry, the sales have too. Gas is cheap, cars are more efficient than ever, and most people donít see a need to change what already works. The Model S was a great step toward making EVs desirable, but itís still way too expensive for average buyers, and the Model 3 isnít as compelling. Consumers are putting their money where their mouth is, and crossovers and trucks are the foreseeable future or else car companies wouldnít be retooling their production lines to stop building cars and start increasing truck output.
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 04:53 AM

If it's popular in silicone valley it must be the future Lol.
Yeah, a place where the rooftop solar is hugeley popular to "save" on electricity, but the houses have about the same amount of insulation as a shack in Cuba.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
Only a matter of time until these alternate fuel vehicles become the norm.


Originally Posted By: cheesepuffs
Matter of time, but the question is how much time. Five years, or fifty years? Back in 2008, truck and SUV sales tanked, and fuel economy was the big push. Fast forward ten years and gas is cheap and few people can justify the trade offs of an electric vehicle, and truck sales are so strong that companies are stopping the sale of their car models, like Ford Fusion and Taurus, Chevy Impala, Dodge Dart, etc. Traditional internal combustion engines are better than ever and making alternative fuel vehicles a tough sell at the moment.


Exactly. It will never happen as long as gasoline is available at most every corner. And they are finding new reserves faster than we can deplete the old ones. For Tesla to have a chance, they have to get recharge times down to minutes, not hours. Or "the norm" who purchases cars out there isn't going to want anything to do with them. That is decades away, if it ever happens.

Right now they're nothing but a impractical, fancy toy. Or at best, an overpriced about town, grocery getter for the family who already has 2 gasoline cars in a 3 car garage, and wants to, "make a statement". That market alone will never be enough to sustain Tesla. If it was they would be profitable by now.
Posted By: SteveSRT8

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 11:25 AM

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
If it's popular in silicone valley it must be the future Lol.
Yeah, a place where the rooftop solar is hugeley popular to "save" on electricity, but the houses have about the same amount of insulation as a shack in Cuba.



hahaha, we have the same issues in FL. Solar is going quite well, contractors are killing it.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 01:16 PM

Fuel cells have a major problem; the cost to "fill up". Toyota pays for fuel on Murai leases.
All the major car companies are developing alternative fuel vehicles.

As far as Silicon Valley and CA go, we do lead the country.
All the car makers test their new vehicles here first, sometimes also in New York.

I am not sure I consider gas cheap at $3.50 per gallon.
And I have 7 cars... From 2017 Accord to a 1968 L36 Corvette Roadster.
If you do, wait till you try electric!
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 01:28 PM

Where do you get the "electric" from ?
Like the hydrogen economy, we don't have any currently operating hydrogen mines.

Ca leading the country...the time of use tarrifs are telling a story about where that leadership is leading the costs of electric transport.

It's NOT free, and overnight "off peak" is an ancient artifact to the Ca energy economy.

Your employer won't be giving you breaks to shuffle your cars off the charger, and your charging company will be charging you by the minute for every minute you leave it on there over your paid billing period for lost opportunity.

And the personal transport (sin) taxes will apply as soon as there's enough critical mass of adopters to snowball that income stream.

(the next flavour of being green will be driverless community/uber electric vehicles that don't need parking spaces...soon as they work out how to not kill people with their superior technology)
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:12 PM

Hydrogen consumes more energy to produce, than it supplies. That has always been it's problem in regards to Fuel Cell Vehicles.

"More energy is needed to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds than can ever be recovered from its use, Bossel explains to PhysOrg.com.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html#jCp
Posted By: pandus13

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 03:18 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460
Hydrogen consumes more energy to produce, than it supplies.

But but but but it's for the:
- children
- green aliens
- clean air
- tax savings
- for future generations (remember hilderbrand?)
- Bug Bunny
- Marvin the MArtian
- Willie Nelson
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 04:14 PM

The masses are led to believe that solar and wind are essentially free, so it doesn't matter home much we use, as long as we don't use the evil fossil fuels.
That is why these pesky little details about efficiency can simply be omitted from the discussion.

It's the same mantra with house insulation I mentioned earlier.
Posted By: HemiHawk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 05:02 PM

They seem to be selling quite well in my area, and from what I understand part of the issue is they can't make the model 3s fast enough. We have charging stations at work, as do several local companies.

I know some power in our area comes from nuclear, but even if most of power comes from fossil fuels is it more efficient to generate electricity than for every car to burn it? I'm not sure but it seems like it may be.

They are super practical for most people. 200+ mile range? Most people don't commute more than 50 miles a day in urban areas. Of course people in the country will have 100+ mile commutes each way. So for those it wont work.

I've thought about trading the VW for a Bolt, or waiting to see how things shake out with the model 3. Everyone I know that owns one (well 3 people) love them.
Posted By: Rat407

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 05:29 PM

I just wonder how the parts supply chain is for Tesla. Can you go down to your local AA and get what you need if something happens. I would imagine brake pads are similar to other manufactures as well as shocks and bearings. But what about electronics? How long is your down time to fix? Granted most don't buy a Tesla as their primary vehicle but isn't that going to change say in the next 10 years?
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 05:31 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
but even if most of power comes from fossil fuels is it more efficient to generate electricity than for every car to burn it? I'm not sure but it seems like it may be.


If we are trying to reduce carbon emissions (let's keep this discussion independent from the merit of that approach for the time being) then moving it from the tailpipe to the smokestack does nothing for the end result.

Yes, PA does produce a significant amount of its power via nuclear (which has no carbon emissions) however, that's currently under threat from what I recall. While there are nuclear plants being built and coming online elsewhere in the world the NIMBY and regulatory nature of North America has made it next to impossible for that to happen here.

We are not immune to that north of the border either. Canada developed a reactor that will run on Thorium, spent US PWR fuel, MOX...etc. But the first place it was constructed and operated? China.

Nuclear coupled with Hydro-Electric (where viable) has the ability to provide reliable, round-the-clock carbon-free electricity, which is absolutely necessary for successful EV market penetration. One of the primary problems aside from the regulatory Gong Show is the now-ballooned cost, which is a significant deterrent when the market is so volatile and you are relying on a strong long-term ROI to make your plan viable.
Posted By: nap

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 05:49 PM

Let's not conflate "carbon" with "carbon dioxide".
Posted By: HemiHawk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 06:10 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

If we are trying to reduce carbon emissions (let's keep this discussion independent from the merit of that approach for the time being) then moving it from the tailpipe to the smokestack does nothing for the end result.


This may be a silly question, and one that I could perhaps research but... does it do something for the end result? For example (really rough numbers) for 10 cars to go 1000 miles each, it takes 333 gallons of refined fuel. At a fossil fuel plant (coal?) would it take the equivalent amount of fuel to generate the electricity needed for an EV to go that distance? Going a step further we could take into account the transportation fuel usage of transporting the fuel VS electricity.

I'm certainly not saying it is more efficient doing this, but its possible. There may also be less "waste" in this way VS burning gas in traffic or idling (of course start/stop is promising there).

Of course this doesn't take into account production of batteries, I'm just throwing stuff out there.
Posted By: supton

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
This may be a silly question, and one that I could perhaps research but... does it do something for the end result? For example (really rough numbers) for 10 cars to go 1000 miles each, it takes 333 gallons of refined fuel. At a fossil fuel plant (coal?) would it take the equivalent amount of fuel to generate the electricity needed for an EV to go that distance? Going a step further we could take into account the transportation fuel usage of transporting the fuel VS electricity.


Trying googling well to wheel. You may find what you are after there.
Posted By: SeaJay

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 06:32 PM

Last year, NY State announced the future closing of its Indian Point nuclear electricity generators. They will need to be replaced by fossil fuel burning generators when that happens.
Posted By: SeaJay

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 06:39 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

If we are trying to reduce carbon emissions (let's keep this discussion independent from the merit of that approach for the time being) then moving it from the tailpipe to the smokestack does nothing for the end result.


This may be a silly question, and one that I could perhaps research but... does it do something for the end result? For example (really rough numbers) for 10 cars to go 1000 miles each, it takes 333 gallons of refined fuel. At a fossil fuel plant (coal?) would it take the equivalent amount of fuel to generate the electricity needed for an EV to go that distance? Going a step further we could take into account the transportation fuel usage of transporting the fuel VS electricity.

I'm certainly not saying it is more efficient doing this, but its possible. There may also be less "waste" in this way VS burning gas in traffic or idling (of course start/stop is promising there).

Of course this doesn't take into account production of batteries, I'm just throwing stuff out there.


These are the things that need to be studied, and probably should have been studied before federal grants for purchasing EV's were voted into place. Of course, once the words "green", "renewable", "climate change" and "environment" get tossed about, common sense disappears and a groundswell of support builds based strictly on those words rather than a careful assessment of the pros and cons. Maybe EVs are a positive, but we do not actually know yet.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 07:59 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

If we are trying to reduce carbon emissions (let's keep this discussion independent from the merit of that approach for the time being) then moving it from the tailpipe to the smokestack does nothing for the end result.


This may be a silly question, and one that I could perhaps research but... does it do something for the end result? For example (really rough numbers) for 10 cars to go 1000 miles each, it takes 333 gallons of refined fuel. At a fossil fuel plant (coal?) would it take the equivalent amount of fuel to generate the electricity needed for an EV to go that distance? Going a step further we could take into account the transportation fuel usage of transporting the fuel VS electricity.

I'm certainly not saying it is more efficient doing this, but its possible. There may also be less "waste" in this way VS burning gas in traffic or idling (of course start/stop is promising there).

Of course this doesn't take into account production of batteries, I'm just throwing stuff out there.


The efficiency of a coal-fired generating station is somewhere between 30 and 40% depending on a few factors including age. Let's look at the lower end of the spectrum: 1kWh of electricity has a heat rate of 3,412 Btu, so a 33% efficient coal plant would require 10,500 Btu to produce 1kWh of electricity.

1lb of Coal "A" has a thermal capacity of 12,500 Btu (others are higher)

So, ignoring transmission losses, to charge your 90kWh Tesla would require 307,080 Btu, which, through our 33% efficiency coal plant, would actually require 945,000 Btu of coal, or 75.6lbs. This will yield a range of 303 miles (EPA), or 4 miles per lb of coal or 3,118 Btu per mile.

CO2 emissions for various coals vary, but for the sake of this discussion, we'll say we are at roughly 204lbs per million BTU, so our Tesla puts out 192.78lbs of CO2 indirectly via our coal plant when covering 303 miles.

There are 125,000 Btu in a gallon of gasoline. A good sized sedan like say an Accord, has an EPA rating of 33Mpg combined, which gives us 3,788 Btu per mile

CO2 emissions for gasoline, by the EPA, are listed as 20lbs per gallon. Our 303 mile range would require 9.18 gallons of gasoline, which would produce 183.64lbs of CO2 directly via our tail pipe.


So, the difference is pretty insignificant if the focus is on CO2 emissions. Of course sulphur emissions are a whole other discussion.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 08:49 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
......They seem to be selling quite well in my area, and from what I understand part of the issue is they can't make the model 3s fast enough.


What exactly does, "seem to be selling quite well"...... And, "can't make them fast enough", really mean? Let's examine the numbers. Tesla manufacturers approximately 3,145 model 3's per week.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

In comparison 6,500 new pickups are sold EVERY DAY in America. Or roughly 270 per hour.

http://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/11278/6500-new-pickup-trucks-are-sold-every-day-in-america

So when we use terms like, "selling quite well", and, "can't make them fast enough", it's really not saying much. The fact is it's a small, all but non existent sliver of the actual new vehicle market in this country. And there is no guarantee they can even make that many. There simply isn't enough of these things on the road now, or in the future to make any sort of difference. And I'm talking about the whole EV market. Including the Chevy Volt, (of which I have yet to see a single one on the road), or the Nissan Leaf, of which I've seen a grand total of 2. And I have never seen a Tesla of ANY kind anywhere.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.......So, ignoring transmission losses, to charge your 90kWh Tesla would require 307,080 Btu, which, through our 33% efficiency coal plant, would actually require 945,000 Btu of coal, or 75.6lbs. This will yield a range of 303 miles (EPA), or 4 miles per lb of coal or 3,118 Btu per mile......


I wonder how that compares to turn of the century railroad steam engines?
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.......So, ignoring transmission losses, to charge your 90kWh Tesla would require 307,080 Btu, which, through our 33% efficiency coal plant, would actually require 945,000 Btu of coal, or 75.6lbs. This will yield a range of 303 miles (EPA), or 4 miles per lb of coal or 3,118 Btu per mile......


I wonder how that compares to turn of the century railroad steam engines?


I'd assume they were significantly less efficient given they aren't comprised of progressive expansion chambers spinning turbines, but it's an interesting question.

Of course then there's the bunker fuel burning container ships constantly running the globe, which, since they are a much smaller target volume-wise, would seem to be a logical target here but.... shrug

To quote the Euro Nuke folks:

Quote:
With a complete combustion or fission, approx. 8 kWh of heat can be generated from 1 kg of coal, approx. 12 kWh from 1 kg of mineral oil and around 24,000,000 kWh from 1 kg of uranium-235


And that's once-through the reactor and doesn't factor in reprocessing.

If we really wanted to displace fossil sources, that's a staggering statistic.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 10:19 PM

Many people use solar panels to charge their cars, as well as to power their houses.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Many people use solar panels to charge their cars, as well as to power their houses.


If they have an in-house battery bank and aren't just using net metering to offset their power usage with their power back-feed during the day when they aren't home.

To fully charge a 90kWh battery within a reasonable timeframe with solar panels would require far more than what could fit on your typical house and of course requires you do it while it is sunny, so during the day when you'd be using the car, unless you have a battery that's larger than 90kWh at home that you can use to both feed the house and charge the car when you are actually home.

Somehow however, I doubt that's the scenario you were alluding to.
Posted By: Carmudgeon

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/13/18 11:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy

When Hyundai started offering Korean cars in N. America in the mid 80's, nobody thought they'd make it either.
Fast forward 20 years and they are gaining market share over their Japanese and American rivals.

The world wants something different, new and fresh (I don't, but I'm not in the majority) and Tesla is willing to offer it.
Only a matter of time until these alternate fuel vehicles become the norm.


That's an apple-to-oranges comparison; Hyundai faced a different challenge than what Tesla is dealing with now.

Hyundai wasn't bringing anything new to the table when it introduced a cheap, Mitsubishi-derived econobox to the US market in the form of the Excel. Its chief virtue (and disadvantage) was that it was a cheap econobox (IIRC, only the Yugo cost less at the time), whose natural appeal only extended so far. But, it was an entry point for a fledgling, but not young company (HM was ~20 years old at the time), backed by a large chaeboi which could afford to be patient and take time to grow its business.

Conversely, Tesla hasn't had difficulty finding appeal, even outside of the techies and early adopters. The interest in the 3 alone is indicative of that.

Tesla's challenge has been a continuing inability to execute on its business plans, and to actually deliver what it has promised, on time, on budget, and on price.

Investment in production lines and equipment is costly, even for established OEMs, and Musk's risk in ignoring a century's worth of industry experience and attempting to shortcut his way in making Model 3s has been a costly failure, both in terms of capital and opportunity cost, as well as lost volume. It has been forced to discard equipment, and reconfigure the line with new equipment and more workers to do the job that the original plan could not.

The company's immediate concern is slow down the rate at which it burns cash, hence the layoffs, and ramp up volume to grow cash flow. If it doesn't get things in order, a three-year future is in jeopardy, never mind a thirty-year future.

Musk has repeatedly stated the Tesla doesn't need to raise any more capital, but it's on borrowed time if it doesn't act, and probably do that, as well as cutting costs.

Investors have been patient, but such patience is not infinite (at least to those who are wise), and faith alone doesn't pay the employees or the bills.

Tesla was already facing a challenge in driving EV adoption in the mass market, and hasn't made it any easier on itself by doubling down, in the way it has tried to operate. It still has certain advantages, but the window of opportunity is shrinking as the other OEMs enter the market. They will have to catch up in establishing charging infrastructures and supply lines for battery and motor production, but they do not lack the experience, nor expertise in mass vehicle manufacturing, or lack the capital to make those investments.

Why it finds itself in this situation is another topic in itself, but suffice it to say, Musk is a big part of that discussion, as well as contrasts between how Tesla is managed and how SpaceX is managed.

That's just how the facts appear to me, as neither a fanboi, nor a hater.

But, Tesla is an American company, employing American workers, and on the forefront of a shift in the industry, so it's puzzling how many in the country are rooting against it. There are a lot fewer things than before where the US could claim itself as the leader. This is one of them, at least for now.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 12:19 AM

The Model S is an attractive machine while the Model X is plain looking at best and the pug faced hunchbacked Model 3 needs serious help from a designer with credentials extending beyond the sixth grade.
Having written the above, while any of the above EVs would work for my wife and I as we use our daily drivers, none of them would make any economic sense even assuming that we could always scam a free charge.
This being the case, then what's the point?
Someone above mentioned that Tesla is a battery company that happens to assemble cars.
FWIU, Tesla has never actually made any batteries but merely assembles off the rack cells into packs, just as anyone might do in their garage.
Tesla as an assembler of road vehicles may be no more than a balloon ready to pop or it may be a major player in the near future.
Certainly a nice fuel price spike would bring a similar spike in Tesla orders and might enable the investment to bring production volumes up on a sustainable basis.
We'll see.
Meanwhile, I'll note that I haven't been impressed with Tesla's offerings.
Given the lack of a costly engine and transmission, a Model 3 should be priced at the same level as the Honda Accord/Toyota Camry with which it competes, but this is not the case just as the Models S and X seem overpriced for what they are.
How much can it cost to assemble a bunch of Panasonic batteries into a pack and the computer and software requirements should be but a fraction of what a machine with an actual engine and transmission requires.
Posted By: thooks

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 02:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Kestas
How will they choose who gets laid off?



Ummmm..... big companies have a LOT of dead weight. Big companies allow LOTS of incompetent people to hide. People that could never make it at a highly successful small (6-25 ppl) company.

Itís generally no secret who these folks are.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 02:24 AM

Yeah, but surely a visionary such as Musk would never have let that occur in the first place...or losing vast swathes of other peoples money means you don't pay attention.

Other dot points...
Steam Trains - 5-6% thermal efficiency by the time they included superheaters and economisers.
Solar roofs...not many (read nearly none) could possibly power themselves and a car.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 02:44 AM

Elon has confidence; he just bought $25M worth of Tesla stock.

Musk buys Tesla Stock $25M
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 03:50 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Elon has confidence; he just bought $25M worth of Tesla stock.

Musk buys Tesla Stock $25M


Oldest trick in the book...improving investor CONfidence.

And it's only 0.125% of his nett worth that he put up.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 09:48 AM

OVERKILL, was going to do the math from a different angle

Electricity 1 tonne per GWh (pretty typical Oz)...Model S "rated" at 209Wh per km. gives 4,780 km/tonne of CO2, or 209g/km
Prius ADR Combines 86g/km

(still did the calcs LOL)

Anyway, found the Oz website...
https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/Vehicle/QuickCompareVehicles



So my numbers aren't far off.

Have fun with the calculator...

BTW, it's nice to "think" or "feel" that things are different.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 01:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Shannow


BTW, it's nice to "think" or "feel" that things are different.


Thanks for the share smile

And you've touched on one of the biggest factors in all of this: perception

People see wind mills and solar farms and go all greeny-gagga assuming that's where their power comes from to charge their E-sled, yet the reality is that this is not the case.

- Denmark, one of the staples of the green lexicon given its almost entirely wind-driven generation system, produces less than 40% of its power domestically via this manner, despite pursuing it since the 1970's. The statistic of course varies, but >60% of their power is generated via fossil sources or imported from their neighbours who generate it via coal, nuclear, hydro...etc. And this is a country with overall consumption less than many states and provinces at 34TWh for 2013. For some perspective, the 8-unit Bruce Nuclear site in Ontario produced 47TWh last year.

- Ontario, the 2nd greenest province in Canada behind Quebec, is currently in turmoil due to the failings of its Green Energy fiasco (the GEA) which involved insane feed-in tariffs on long-term contracts given to private wind and solar developers as well as gas operations to prop them up. The lofty goal was to eliminate coal and nuclear power but after already cancelling the Darlington nuclear expansion, it became readily apparent that this wasn't viable, much to the chagrin of various advocates and lobbying groups. Subsequently, the plan shifted and the province committed to long-term nuclear involving the refurbishment of 10 reactors over two facilities, which yields a lifespan that will run into the 2060's. Unfortunately, significant damage was already done and while wind, gas and solar represent 8%, 6% and 2% of our generating mix respectively, they account for 18%, 15% and 14% of the cost. Yes, 16% of Ontario's power accounts for a staggering 47% of the cost.

So somebody in Ontario, charging their Tesla, isn't getting that power from that huge field of windmills spinning in the backdrop of this idyllic fantasy, nor from the solar panels glistening on the rooftops down the street. 84% of that power is coming from Nuclear and hydro-electric; from the staple generators that had already been in place before this ridiculous detour.
Posted By: HemiHawk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460

What exactly does, "seem to be selling quite well"...... And, "can't make them fast enough", really mean? Let's examine the numbers. Tesla manufacturers approximately 3,145 model 3's per week.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

In comparison 6,500 new pickups are sold EVERY DAY in America. Or roughly 270 per hour.

http://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/11278/6500-new-pickup-trucks-are-sold-every-day-in-america

So when we use terms like, "selling quite well", and, "can't make them fast enough", it's really not saying much. The fact is it's a small, all but non existent sliver of the actual new vehicle market in this country. And there is no guarantee they can even make that many. There simply isn't enough of these things on the road now, or in the future to make any sort of difference. And I'm talking about the whole EV market. Including the Chevy Volt, (of which I have yet to see a single one on the road), or the Nissan Leaf, of which I've seen a grand total of 2. And I have never seen a Tesla of ANY kind anywhere.


So because they don't sell as well as pickup trucks in America, they don't sell well for what they are? Its funny some in this thread (not you in particular) mention people buying EVs as status symbols, when some huge percentage of trucks are bought for the same reason. I see people who wouldn't be able to lift a cinder block into a truck bed driving King Ranches.

I see Volts all over. I think the "seeing" them is more related to area. Sales of the Volt specifically aren't very high, but steady. about 20,000 units per year for the past 5 years. Maybe a better example of hybrid/ev sales would be the Toyota Prius. About 2 million sold since 2000.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Elon has confidence; he just bought $25M worth of Tesla stock.

Musk buys Tesla Stock $25M


Oldest trick in the book...improving investor CONfidence.

And it's only 0.125% of his nett worth that he put up.




Yep and Iíll wager he bought those 72000 shares right before the announcement.

This shell game continues.
Posted By: pandus13

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
...

I see Volts all over. I think the "seeing" them is more related to area. Sales of the Volt specifically aren't very high, but steady. about 20,000 units per year for the past 5 years. Maybe a better example of hybrid/ev sales would be the Toyota Prius. About 2 million sold since 2000.

[off-topic]
I think some of the Volts sales are Prius converts looking for a "sportier" hybrid ride. (according to some priuschat....)
[/off-topic]
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
So because they don't sell as well as pickup trucks in America, they don't sell well for what they are?


You bring up a very good point. What exactly are they? They are not cheap. It's been pretty well proven here, as well as most everywhere else, they are not "green". At least no "greener" than any comparable gas powered model. They are not practical by any stretch of the imagination. They can only be driven a few hundred miles before they are out of commission for at least 8 hours for a recharge. There are limited places you can recharge them on the road. Are you going to run an extension cord out your motel room door? What if you end up with a room on the second floor? So for any type of long distance, cross country travel they're pretty much worthless.

They are useless for pulling anything. (How many Tesla's and Volt's do you see with receiver hitches on them?) So I'm just not sure what is their intended purpose? Right now they don't sell as well as anything with an internal combustion engine in it... Be it pickups, compacts, or anything else with a fuel tank for that matter. No matter how you want to analyze this, they are nothing more than cool, expensive toys. Will they ever be more? Right now I'm not seeing how. When people have to come up with mostly bogus reasoning to buy one, that's not a good sign of long term sustainability in any market.

And as was mentioned, even if they improve driving distance and charging times, the internal combustion powered vehicles are improving right along with them. They are getting cleaner, (or "greener"). They are becoming more and more fuel efficient. And they are cheaper too boot. And you can "recharge" them with a full tank of fuel cheaply, and most anywhere in a couple of minutes.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 09:15 PM

I am not sure I agree with the electric vs gas argument proposed here:

Where your electricity comes from depends on where you live. Most places are coal dependent, true, but others (like CA) use more renewable sources.
You say the electric benefit is false because it costs energy to bring the power to the car, but disregard the gas engine total supply delivery energy costs.
You should be comparing source to tailpipe total cost for both vehicles.

In total energy cost, electric cars are far greener than fossil fuel cars; perhaps 4 to 1 in terms of CO2.
There are other energy costs, such as rare metals used in Teslas to make them light, etc.
And what about battery disposal?
There is much to be learned.

But alternative fuel vehicles are pushing the world in the right direction, as evidenced on lowering all cars emissions.

How green are they?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
I am not sure I agree with the electric vs gas argument proposed here:

Where your electricity comes from depends on where you live. Most places are coal dependent, true, but others (like CA) use more renewable sources.
You say the electric benefit is false because it costs energy to bring the power to the car, but disregard the gas engine total supply delivery energy costs.
You should be comparing source to tailpipe total cost for both vehicles.


And the greens are disregaring the costs in energy to put into the solar panels and windmills, which as I've shown before is a very poor return on energy invested...after all, if you are going to compare lifecycle emissions, then you've got to consider that these "free" energy producers only generate over their entire lifetime the ennergy costs to create them.

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
In total energy cost, electric cars are far greener than fossil fuel cars; perhaps 4 to 1 in terms of CO2.


4x ???

Man you are entitled to your own opinions, but certainly not facts...if the issue is CO2 produced (or fuel burned, I don't mind either metric, same engineering outcome, that's certainly not the case.

Unless you are using the 38 to 142 MJ comparison, which is absolutely a ridiculous use of numbers...especially for an advocate of lifecycle costing.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 09:38 PM

:shaking head:

If that'show people are using the science to justify their beliefs, then no wonder there's no rational discussion.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/14/18 11:53 PM

Here's the deal:
As I noted above any current Tesla model would suit my wife and I as daily drivers all of the time with very low operating costs.
The thing is that all of these cars are so overpriced as to make no practical sense as daily drivers.
I'm a fiscal guy and my wife is a fiscal gal, so we look at things on a ruthless cost basis.
No Tesla model comes even close to being economically advantageous even as compared to a thirsty new Suburban.
The fact that no Tesla is a practical touring car only adds to the disadvantages column.
These are actually practical and useable cars in typical daily driver service and if I were looking at another ten years of my commute and could buy a Model 3 for $35K or so, I'd be seriously interested.
At current Tesla prices, no thanks.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/15/18 03:20 AM

What I was pointing out was your comparison of supply cost + emissions to tail pipe only.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/15/18 06:26 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
What I was pointing out was your comparison of supply cost + emissions to tail pipe only.


Where did you get your 4 times then ?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/15/18 06:35 AM

https://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/inventory/pubs/reports/2000_2015/ghg_inventory_trends_00-15.pdf

OK, here's the GHG intensity for Ca...I'll do the same

300Kg/MWh, 209Wh/km, 4,780km in a MWh, 62.7g CO2 per km
Versus the Prius 86g/km.

You are claiming that I need to include the extraction energy costs...however, CARB are claiming that solar, wind, hydro and nuclear a "zero GHH power sources. (P7)

Is this sort of double ledger bookkeeping standard in Ca ?

Those activities certainly aren't carbon free to establish, run and maintain...but THEY get a free pass while I have to include oil extraction costs ?
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/15/18 08:14 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk


That site has been playing with my head all day...



Using the ground to tailpipe example of the gasoline car, it's 168MJ cradle to grave, the extraction and distribution cost of 26, is therefore 15.5% of the total.

Applying that to the EV, 15.5% of the total energy used, is 15.5% of 112MJ, or 17.4MJ....netting that off the "getting the energy to the car" leaves 56.6MJ for the generation and distribution of the energy.

56.6MJ of 94.6MJ in total of the energy to create the power (they state it's oil fired) and drive the car...that's 40% efficiency for the generation and distribution system...so taking transmission losses, and with industry experience on how to get the level of efficiency, they have cherry picked CCGT running on oil as their comparator...that's nonsensical, as OCGT are run oil oil for peakers, CCGT on oil is ridiculous (but that's OK, it's a paper argument anyway, based on an EV running on oil).

Ducking back to their Gasoline engined vehicle, and only using the energy in the tank , and the claimed 142MJ per 100km.

Gasoline contains 34.2MJ per litre on average. So they are claiming 4,15L/100km - it's all in 2020.



And that Nuclear for an EV is just as bad for GHG as running a car on petrol (155 versus 169).

The linked article makes little sense...and when compared to ZERO GHG from CARB for the Ca power supply, there some serious cognative bias going on in both the authors of the article, CARB, and the starry eyed truth seekers in the "everything is possible because I can imagine it" brigade.
Posted By: riklyn

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/15/18 01:33 PM

every mainstream auto maker in the world is developing EV. the difference is, these companies know how to do it right as a business. when the technology is right and the profit is there, they will go full bore and Tesla will be gone.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/16/18 02:39 PM

Originally Posted By: riklyn
every mainstream auto maker in the world is developing EV. the difference is, these companies know how to do it right as a business. when the technology is right and the profit is there, they will go full bore and Tesla will be gone.


Mainstream automakers are offering at least a few EVs collectively.
Tesla still has a couple of years to get its manufacturing and assembly operations running smoothly before any large push into EVs by the established makers is likely, so I wouldn't count them out just yet.
OTOH, if a Toyota or a Honda surprises the market with an <$30K 250 mile range EV, all bets are off.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/16/18 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: billt460
"Given that Tesla has never made an annual profit in the almost 15 years since we have existed, profit is obviously not what motivates us."

I would be interested to hear what is long term business model is. Considering the fact he obviously isn't interested in profit?

That's the kind of rubbish that really impresses shareholders. Musk likes to sell a lot of baloney, but if he keeps up statements like this, the shares' value will start to correct itself sooner rather than later, and he and the rest of the board of directors may be finding a new line of work.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The linked article makes little sense...and when compared to ZERO GHG from CARB for the Ca power supply, there some serious cognative bias going on in both the authors of the article, CARB, and the starry eyed truth seekers in the "everything is possible because I can imagine it" brigade.

I guess when these articles are here to sell us an idea, rather than being peer reviewed science, we see how badly they do when they do get a bit of scientific review.
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 12:37 AM

'cept the CARB one is an official publication, not an article in an electronic rag.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 01:02 AM

They're not immune, either, nor is it really peer reviewed. wink They are still trying to sell something, of course.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 04:56 AM

Elon Musk is a pioneer, a visionary. He challenges much accepted thought, he causes disruption.
Elon Musk

Microsoft had me meet with the Tesla CIO to discuss authoring a custom MRP/MRP II solution to replace SAP...
Elon hates SAP. By the way, Tesla is considered a sweatshop here in the valley...

As for some of the scientific calculations, I challenge you to think out of the box...
When are calculations appropriate and when do they fall short?

Hint: Think of a diesel delivery truck that makes numerous stops, operates in traffic and idles much of the time.
Would you agree that a hybrid or perhaps pure electric solution makes sense?

Also, if it weren't for the dreamers, scientific discovery and subsequent technologies would be ....
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
A. Einstein

I appreciate and respect all your thoughts...
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 05:26 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk

As for some of the scientific calculations, I challenge you to think out of the box...
When are calculations appropriate and when do they fall short?

Hint: Think of a diesel delivery truck that makes numerous stops, operates in traffic and idles much of the time.
Would you agree that a hybrid or perhaps pure electric solution makes sense?


For things that are meant to operate in the real world, thought up by imagination, then promulgated as fact, calculations are all we've got to turn make believe.

When Musk says that he's going to release an 80,000lb semi trailer that can do 500 miles at 65MPH, and can be recharged in 20 minutes, then calculating that it needs 1.2MW of storage on board, and a 3MW energy transfer rate in the extension cord, and there's not enough roof space on the Walmart to deliver that turns the claims and imagination into numbers that can make the claims look possible...or advertising fluff.

If my calculations on that are 20% out (possible, Musk tells us nothing about his physics, all about his claims...he refuses to answer investor's questions because the questions are "boring"), the problems don't change by an order of magnitude easier/harder.

Somebody says that they can power a pantech with solar panels on the roof and the sides, and calculations demonstrate that they are full of it, or don't have a grasp...even if the panels were 100% efficient (which they can never be), the job can't be done.

engineers have always been using engineering to bring imagination into reality.

Problem occurs when people imagine that the claims made by this charlatan are true, without understanding what he's actually promising (vaporware).
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 05:59 AM

I think the real problem is that the media and a lot of people have made a god out of Musk. People that idolize other people, brands, companies, etc. don't think rationally about their idol.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 12:12 PM

You have to remember how Elon Musk got wealthy in the first place. He first created Zip 2 with his brother and made approximately $50 Million. He then founded PayPal with this money, and sold it for an even greater profit. With all of that money, he founded Tesla, SpaceX, and Solarcity, which are "worth" more than $1B each.

However, his financial gravy train seems to have stopped there. Is it because he has risen beyond the level of his own ability? Or because he got lucky in the first place with something that has nothing to do with what he is involved in now? I'm not trying to take away any deserved credit from the man. But coming into vast sums of wealth relatively easily and early on, doesn't automatically guarantee future success in business. Perhaps he bit off more than he can chew with Tesla. Running 15 years without a profit, coupled with consuming truckloads of government cash during the interim, would make that a very conceivable possibility.

Musk is betting a fortune that electric vehicles are going to be the future. So far that is not the case. This in spite of all of his lofty claims. Perhaps he would have been better off pulling a Mark Cuban. Sell at the top, buy an NBA team, and basically retire except for jet setting around the country, giving "expert advice" on everything from politics, to the environment. You can't lose money if you're giving away B.S. for free.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/17/18 06:15 PM

Tesla stock is at $358. I would not worry over Elon's fortune...
Been a pretty sound investment since day 1.
Just sayin'...
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 12:14 AM

Originally Posted By: JeffKeryk
Tesla stock is at $358. I would not worry over Elon's fortune...
Been a pretty sound investment since day 1.
Just sayin'...


The same could be said of Enron as well as many other enterprises over the years.
Sound investments until the bottom dropped out.
Just sayin'
Posted By: Mr Nice

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 01:11 AM

The Tesla 18 wheelers are a total lie and scam.

Tesla vehicles? Definitely yes.
Tesla big rigs? [censored] no.
Posted By: Bryanccfshr

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 05:05 AM

I Seriously have never seen one on the road. I probably would not notice it if I did since I have no idea what they look like.

Usually layoffs are due to a lack of positive cash flow, so when I read about a nearly 10%rift, I think of financial troubled waters for the company they worked for.
Posted By: Mr Nice

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 02:56 PM

Quote:
By the way, Tesla is considered a sweatshop here in the valley...


I'm sure lots of people apply at that assembly plant for a job.
Posted By: JeffKeryk

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 03:34 PM

Tesla is #1 or #2 (behind Lam Research) workforce in Fremont.
They are in the old GM / NUMMI plant.
My 4-4-2 was built there in 1965; I have the Order Copy Build Sheet.
My 1993 Toyota 4WD PU was built there.

And the support jobs (restaurants, etc) make for a huge tax base for the area.
Fremont fought for Tesla to take over the facility after GM and Toyota left.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/18/18 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
I Seriously have never seen one on the road. I probably would not notice it if I did since I have no idea what they look like.

Usually layoffs are due to a lack of positive cash flow, so when I read about a nearly 10%rift, I think of financial troubled waters for the company they worked for.


I see Tesla Model S cars fairly often. These are attractive cars apparently cribbed from the current four door Maserati models.
I've seen two Model X cars and it looks for all the world like a blown up Gen 2 Prius.
I've even seen a couple of Model 3 cars, which are badly proportioned hunchbacked pug nosed things.
Clearly Tesla will not win based upon their design expertise, but then neither the Leaf nor the Bolt are things of great beauty.
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/19/18 06:06 PM

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Here's the deal:
As I noted above any current Tesla model would suit my wife and I as daily drivers all of the time with very low operating costs.
The thing is that all of these cars are so overpriced as to make no practical sense as daily drivers.
I'm a fiscal guy and my wife is a fiscal gal, so we look at things on a ruthless cost basis.
No Tesla model comes even close to being economically advantageous even as compared to a thirsty new Suburban.
The fact that no Tesla is a practical touring car only adds to the disadvantages column.
These are actually practical and useable cars in typical daily driver service and if I were looking at another ten years of my commute and could buy a Model 3 for $35K or so, I'd be seriously interested.
At current Tesla prices, no thanks.


Have you considered the Chevy Bolt on a ruthless cost basis?
Tesla's marketing seems to be to prove that electric cars can do whatever gasoline cars can do, but will cost 3x as much.
GM doesn't make any such wild claims for the Bolt, just that it's a good, practical daily commuter car.
Posted By: fdcg27

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/19/18 11:58 PM

Yes, I have considered the Bolt.
Not too seriously, since as I noted in the post you quote I'm not looking at another ten years at fifty miles a day.
Were I doing so, then the Bolt would make a pretty compelling case for itself.
The Volt even more so, since along with the EV aspect you also get a real engine should you want to go anywhere beyond work and back.
Within the next three years or so, our combined household driving will decline from around 35K a year to maybe 15K just by our having eliminated our commutes through retirement.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 08:40 AM

Google Chevy Bolt, and this is what comes up. A tiny compact, all electric car with a maximum range of 238 miles. With a recharge time of 9.3 hours out of a 220 volt outlet. (How many garages in this country have 220 volt outlets?) And you get all of this for a minimum of $40K to $45K out the door. Somehow I doubt there will be a waiting list to buy these things.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&...1.0.jrhT6sUnBR0

2019 Chevrolet Bolt EV
Compact car

MSRP: From $36,620

Range: 238 mi battery-only

Battery charge time: 9.3h at 220V

MPGe: 128 city / 110 highway

Battery: 60 kWh 350 V lithium-ion

LT $36,620

Premier $40,905
Posted By: dishdude

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: billt460
Google Chevy Bolt, and this is what comes up. A tiny compact, all electric car with a maximum range of 238 miles. With a recharge time of 9.3 hours out of a 220 volt outlet. (How many garages in this country have 220 volt outlets?) And you get all of this for a minimum of $40K to $45K out the door. Somehow I doubt there will be a waiting list to buy these things.


I believe that is about what a Model S does, and Bolt does it for half the price.

With the news that came out this week, anyone that still owns Tesla stock is one brave investor!
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: dishdude
With the news that came out this week, anyone that still owns Tesla stock is one brave investor!


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas...-hit-2017-07-06

This clown is nothing but a big B.S. artist. All he needs is a plaid suit and a cigar. And stick him on a used car lot with naked light bulbs and streamers.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 10:33 AM

Listening to Musk hype all of his Tesla B.S. reminds me of that show on the History Channel, "Finding Bigfoot". No matter how often or how long you watch it, they never find him.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 12:37 PM

Well, the sky is falling for the EV evangelists in Ontario, as our newly elected has cancelled all of these taxpayer-funded programs the previous team was "offering", which included such wonderful incentives as giving millionaires $14,000 rebates on their Model S smirk

They are of course claiming that the environment in Ontario is going to quickly decay into a coal-fired wasteland that resembles Mordor because we are no longer paying people to put in new windows, buy smart thermostats or in general, just look after their houses. Something they are apparently incapable of doing without somebody else funding it smirk
Posted By: honeeagle

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/21/18 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Well, the sky is falling for the EV evangelists in Ontario, as our newly elected has cancelled all of these taxpayer-funded programs the previous team was "offering", which included such wonderful incentives as giving millionaires $14,000 rebates on their Model S smirk

They are of course claiming that the environment in Ontario is going to quickly decay into a coal-fired wasteland that resembles Mordor because we are no longer funding people to put in new windows, buy smart thermostats or in general, just look after their houses. Something they are apparently incapable of doing without somebody else paying for it smirk


Love it .
even though I was considering a electric smart,I felt guilty about my parents still buying me stuff. sick
Posted By: nap

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 01:21 AM

This thing ďsolarĒ doesnít seem to sell well either.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla...SKBN1JI013?il=0
Posted By: dishdude

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 03:51 AM

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: dishdude
With the news that came out this week, anyone that still owns Tesla stock is one brave investor!


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas...-hit-2017-07-06

This clown is nothing but a big B.S. artist. All he needs is a plaid suit and a cigar. And stick him on a used car lot with naked light bulbs and streamers.


Remember his April Fool's tweet where he said the company was going into bankruptcy? It's one warning sign after another with this guy.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 04:10 AM

Musk has had troubles recently. None of his companies are in the headlines which usually invoked Pavlovian responses from investors. As one companyís stock price rises, Musk sells shares in order to purchase shares of his other companies when they are lower. He has been playing this shell game but the pea has disappeared.

Without government contracts and subsidies, he is toast. His latest pie in the sky company, Boring, is getting some press but how many cities (taxpayers) can afford that system?


He does have a visionary mind, no doubt about that, but his business sense is more like Charles Ponzi.
Posted By: emg

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 06:04 AM

Originally Posted By: PimTac
He does have a visionary mind, no doubt about that, but his business sense is more like Charles Ponzi.


Think about it for a moment. Rockets. Solar power. Electric vehicles. Big tunnel boring. Fast surface transport in vacuum.

Everything Musk does is aimed at colonizing Mars. He doesn't care whether the business makes money here on Earth, so long as the technology can be used to get to Mars and live there. He just needs people to keep throwing money at those businesses until he can leave the planet.
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 11:22 AM

Originally Posted By: emg
..... He just needs people to keep throwing money at those businesses until he can leave the planet.


Speaking from a practical business sense, he already has.
Posted By: Y_K

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/22/18 02:28 PM

Jules Verne + H. G. Wells repackager that ignorami call 'visionary'
Posted By: billt460

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 06/23/18 11:38 AM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Well, the sky is falling for the EV evangelists in Ontario, as our newly elected has cancelled all of these taxpayer-funded programs the previous team was "offering", which included such wonderful incentives as giving millionaires $14,000 rebates on their Model S smirk

They are of course claiming that the environment in Ontario is going to quickly decay into a coal-fired wasteland that resembles Mordor because we are no longer paying people to put in new windows, buy smart thermostats or in general, just look after their houses. Something they are apparently incapable of doing without somebody else funding it


Funny how socialism trains people to think like that.
Posted By: riklyn

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 07/01/18 06:32 PM

hope Bob has registered "bobistheelectricguy.com" grin
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 07/03/18 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By: riklyn
hope Bob has registered "bobistheelectricguy.com" grin


There's no hurry.
Posted By: nap

Re: Tesla to lay off 9% of its workforce. - 07/03/18 03:04 PM

Looks like they make them in tents now:

"Tesla built a new line in just two weeks in a huge tent outside the main factory, an unprecedented move in an industry that takes years to plan out its assembly lines, and said the tented production area accounted for 20 percent of the Model 3s produced last week. "

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla...t-idUSKBN1JT0CQ
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