Home

1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution

Posted By: Highkm

1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 02:57 AM

1st oil change on 2017 Honda CR-V 1.5l turbo. Note the level of fuel in oil. I has 20% of oil life before I changed the oil. I did very few short trips I.e less than 10km about 20 times in 11,000 Kims. I would say that Honda should limit the first use of oil to 5000kms otherwise the viscosity goes below acceptable levels. What do you think?
Posted By: Highkm

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 03:11 AM

Posted By: PimTac

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 03:26 AM

There are lots of threads here regarding this engine and fuel dilution. I would go no more than 5000 miles on any oil.
Posted By: Rolla07

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 03:42 AM

I would of changed FF at like 1-2k miles but thats just me. Why not try 8000 miles and re-test? My guess is around 8k your visc will have dropped to just about threshhold.
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 03:51 AM

How did the level look like on the dipstick? How much have you drained? I bet it was over 4qts. Just run premium gasoline and real synthetic oil and fuel dilution will be almost gone.
Posted By: OneEyeJack

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 04:21 AM

Looks like the flashpoint is down, as well.
Posted By: Brybo86

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 04:31 AM

Call/send this to Honda and ask if this is acceptable.

My guess?
They blame your driving style whatever it may be.
Posted By: SonofJoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 05:54 AM

This reminds me of the first oil change I had done on my old Daihatsu back in 2007 except that my KV100, after 9000 miles, was even lower at 5.0 cst! My old car had a 1.0 litre normally aspired 3-pot so what you've found isn't unique by any means to Honda Turbos.

The good news is that your primary wear metals are relatively low and nothing to worry about. Remember that wear metal levels are usually at their highest at the first OCI as the engine beds in. I'd expect the numbers to drop back somewhat for subsequent oil changes.

I note that you're from from Canada so this oil has been subjected to driving in some exceptionally cold conditions and this will have contributed massively to the fuel dilution problem. Normally I'd say something here about Global Warming but it only revs up the mouthfrothing brigade so I won't! The other thing I've often wondered with these Honda engines is whether the coolant thermostat is set too low & oil seldom gets up to a temperature conducive to stripping condensed gasoline out of the oil.

It could of course be an issue with thin, low tension rings not adequately sealing the cylinders (the most likely cause on my Daihatsu). This kind of thing is great for fuel economy but bad for blow-by (which drives fuel dilution). Having a turbo will undoubtedly exacerbate blow-by. There's not much you can do about this.

Your Honda factory fill oil will be as good as it gets. Changing to another synthetic won't help you one iota. If the fuel dilution issue persists & bothers you, maybe move to a 5W30. With the fuel dilution, it will over time 'thin' to around about a 0W20.

If you're feeling adventurous, talk to Honda about replacing the radiator cap; one with a higher temperature set-point. It might be what this engine needs to purge the condensed gas from the sump.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 10:02 AM

And use a acea a5 spec
Posted By: henni

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 11:53 AM

For some reading, check our the crv forum on this topic


Here and Here
Posted By: Highkm

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:10 PM

Ive dropped in Amsoil 0w20 XL and will run for 8000km at which point Ill extract some oil and send to lab. I think I understand now why Honda puts lots of molybdenum into ff oil. Metal to metal contact is expected during breakin period and with dilution even more so. Molybdenum slows down the wear but does not prevent proper break-in. That being said I dont think Hondas ff is good enough to go full term without serious premature engine wear. New engineers at Honda have yet to experience long term effects of oil fuel dilution.
Posted By: Highkm

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:17 PM

I have drained 3.7 or 3.8 L roughly. I check the dipsticks twice a week. If it were 4L it would smell of gasoline quite a bit at that would be more than 10%. That would also indicate a serious design flaw as well as bad software, enough to get me out of the vehicle.
Posted By: Highkm

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:24 PM

These new crvs definitely do not warm up fast in cold Canadian weather and I am sure it greatly contributes to the dilution.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:25 PM

Very high wear metals. It's no surprise with ultra thin oil in a highly loaded, turbocharged, direct injection engine. I'll bet you a dollar the wear metals decrease markedly with higher viscosity. It seems there have been a handful of engine failures too. Keep on top of it.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:47 PM

High octane fuel and Real synthetic.

Good luck finding a real synthetic.

Wait till you hit 15Kkms.

Wear-in reports always look bad, but,
that fuel dilution% is atrocious though.

I don't know if it will go away; reads like a ring/pistion design flaw.

AGAIN.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 01:52 PM

I'm running 10w30 QSUD in my Rogue to keep the motor running smooth and powerful.

Hopefully some fresh 20 with a kv1000 in the 8 will help.

I would amend sump with a litre of 10w30.

Betcha that would help.
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 02:00 PM

You can look for UOAs on my Civic. on the last UOA fuel dilution came down to a little over 3% (by Oil Analyzers). Wear metals are remarkably low even with 0w20. Design of the engine is fine, it just need proper gas/oil to work with.
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 02:07 PM

Don't rush to get rid of the car. My first report looked similar but I ran factory fill for a little less - around 8kkms. Consequent reports look much better with very little fuel dilution on the last one - 3% or so. Like i mentioned before, using premium gasoline did the trick for me. Also, don't use blackstone - they are useless when it comes to fuel dilution detection and their comments is just a joke.
Posted By: Danh

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 02:12 PM

DI Hondas seem to have a thing for fuel dilution, with the 1.5T being the worst of the lot. Lots of owner complaints on CRV and Civic forums and Facebook and a government stop-sales order for the last month or two in China. Out of dozens of UOAs Ive seen for this engine, BITOG poster Parshisa has the only one that looks normal on the viscosity and fuel dilution front.

And lest we think this is only a theoretical, BITOG-only issue, there are quite a few reports of stalls, CELs and replaced engine heads that grab the attention of the least-attentive owner.

Some dealers suggest Honda may be working on a fix, but theres nothing official. This whole issue could be wrapped up in a fuel economy, emissions, LSPI prevention conundrum. Perhaps it can be solved with software updates, maybe hardware changes are needed, maybe SN Plus oils have to arrive first...

OP, right now all you can do is watch the sump level, change oil more frequently, switch to higher-octane fuel and try to document your issue with your dealer.

In the meantime, Honda seems to provide its customary level of customer service.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 09:53 PM

The problem is the 0w-20 in a turbo car. need a sheer stable oil in a turbo car. EU spec is acea a5 or a3
Posted By: kschachn

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
The problem is the 0w-20 in a turbo car. need a sheer stable oil in a turbo car. EU spec is acea a5 or a3

Sheer stability is always important. Don't want people seeing in, do we?
Posted By: bink

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 11:22 PM

When I changed the oil at 5k on my '18 civic I completely forgot to fill the blackstone sample bottle. mad Ive read some threads on civicX that some people were getting around 4 quarts drained after a 10k oci which is interesting. Mine drained around 3.5 or so. I find that I suck trying to read the dip stick on this engine.

Someone mentioned Blackstone isnt the best for fuel dilution...so as someone new to oil analysis who do you recommend to send it off to? Ill be at 10k in another month and a half so hopefully i wont forgot to fill the sample again! I plan on changing the oil every 5k just to monitor the fuel dilution with this engine...but changing the oil 5-6 times a year gets old.

Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/04/18 11:51 PM

I personally use Oil Analyzers. You can by their kits on amsoil site, with preferred customer subscription it comes out much cheaper for me since im buying their oil anyways. Although beware that they began charging for kits shipping which really sucks and makes no sense
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Highkm



"trust the engineers", "trust the manufacturer", "follow your owners manual". No thanks. I'll use critical thinking in the best interest my assets. This UOA is a perfect example of why.

In case it hasn't been mentioned, this OCI was 6,964 miles. I would up the viscosity using a D1G2 5w30 at minimum and change at 5k miles at an absolute maximum until Honda solves this.
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 03:03 AM

Theres a guy on civic x forum that is having engine replaced with 7000km only. Cam shaft damage due to low oil visocity as he claims.
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 03:05 AM

https://www.civicx.com/threads/oil-change-every-6-000-miles.16426/page-3#post-383680
Posted By: PeterPolyol

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: parshisa
Theres a guy on civic x forum that is having engine replaced with 7000km only. Cam shaft damage due to low oil visocity as he claims.


That's terrible. Honda is so late to the DI game with no prior experience and are suffering from Gen 1 TGDI problems worse than other manufacturers when they had their Gen 1 DI systems, 2 or 3 generations ago. It's rather unfortunate
Posted By: Artem

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 05:48 AM

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Highkm



"trust the engineers", "trust the manufacturer", "follow your owners manual". No thanks. I'll use critical thinking in the best interest my assets. This UOA is a perfect example of why.

In case it hasn't been mentioned, this OCI was 6,964 miles. I would up the viscosity using a D1G2 5w30 at minimum and change at 5k miles at an absolute maximum until Honda solves this.


Yea I agree. Blindly following the manufacturer is just plain dumb. Let's see how many engines they will replace during this ordeal.

I still can't believe they actually released this engine to the public with these UOA results. Pathetic engineering.
Posted By: ARCOgraphite

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 04:32 PM

dumb to run a turbo to 11KKM with FF.

Should have been out by 5K at the MOST

New engines shear the (edit-mod) out of oil.

Now you add in Fuel dilution.

Since ive had over 60 cars and over 50 NEW I have some experience here,.
Posted By: oil_film_movies

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Your Honda factory fill oil will be as good as it gets. Changing to another synthetic won't help you one iota. If the fuel dilution issue persists & bothers you, maybe move to a 5W30. With the fuel dilution, it will over time 'thin' to around about a 0W20.
Mobil1 AFE 0w30 prescribed here. Yes, go up one grade in this case. approved Too much of the engine gets boundary lubrication when kv100 is 5.

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If you're feeling adventurous, talk to Honda about replacing the radiator cap; one with a higher temperature set-point. It might be what this engine needs to purge the condensed gas from the sump.
Do you mean go to a higher Fahrenheit thermostat? Cap is just a pressure vent for when things get really bad.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Your Honda factory fill oil will be as good as it gets. Changing to another synthetic won't help you one iota. If the fuel dilution issue persists & bothers you, maybe move to a 5W30. With the fuel dilution, it will over time 'thin' to around about a 0W20.
Mobil1 AFE 0w30 prescribed here. Yes, go up one grade in this case. approved Too much of the engine gets boundary lubrication when kv100 is 5.

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If you're feeling adventurous, talk to Honda about replacing the radiator cap; one with a higher temperature set-point. It might be what this engine needs to purge the condensed gas from the sump.
Do you mean go to a higher Fahrenheit thermostat? Cap is just a pressure vent for when things get really bad.



Do the mobil1 0w-30 have the acea a5 spec in us?
Posted By: zeng

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/05/18 11:10 PM

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If you're feeling adventurous, talk to Honda about replacing the radiator cap; one with a higher temperature set-point. It might be what this engine needs to purge the condensed gas from the sump.
Do you mean go to a higher Fahrenheit thermostat? Cap is just a pressure vent for when things get really bad.

I'm not speaking for SoJ, but probably a thermostat with higher F is inferred that makes sense.
Yes, upping a viscosity grade to xW30 AND with ACEA specs would be my preference.
Posted By: oil_film_movies

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/06/18 12:03 AM

Bjornviken and zeng, Mobil1 AFE 0w30 is not ACEA A5. Since its dexos1 Gen2, it does include higher performance specs that cover most of A5. GM's dexos1 Gen2 is better on wear than A5, but not as tough on piston deposits. (Mobil1 5w30 is available that is ACEA A5 for those that think they need it.)

The subject of this thread, a Honda 1.5L in the U.S., does not require A5 nor dexos1 for that matter. Honda just says use a 0w20 that has SN. Going to a 0w30 SN is plenty here.
Posted By: SonofJoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/06/18 04:51 AM

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Your Honda factory fill oil will be as good as it gets. Changing to another synthetic won't help you one iota. If the fuel dilution issue persists & bothers you, maybe move to a 5W30. With the fuel dilution, it will over time 'thin' to around about a 0W20.
Mobil1 AFE 0w30 prescribed here. Yes, go up one grade in this case. approved Too much of the engine gets boundary lubrication when kv100 is 5.

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If you're feeling adventurous, talk to Honda about replacing the radiator cap; one with a higher temperature set-point. It might be what this engine needs to purge the condensed gas from the sump.
Do you mean go to a higher Fahrenheit thermostat? Cap is just a pressure vent for when things get really bad.



Regarding radiator caps & thermostats, I have confessed on many occasions that I don't do 'mechanical'! The last time I actually took off a radiator cap was probably in 1978, on my old Austin 1100. My recollection back then was that the thermostat (which restricted the flow of coolant to the radiator) was a simple bi-metallic thingee integrated into the radiator cap itself. I humbly accept that things may have changed somewhat over the ensuing four decades!

But my point still stands. If the coolant thermostat is set too low (say 80C) then in all likelihood, it will keep the engine oil temperature too low and any fuel dilution will be glacially slow to purge itself. A higher thermostat setting (especially in winter) might offer a 'cure' but only for longer distance drives. Obviously if you just pop down to the shops & back, the engine won't warm-up regardless of what the thermostat says.

Regarding 5 cst and boundary conditions; I don't think you can say that definitely. If you got the engine oil upto 150C then I would absolutely agree with you but at that temperature, any gasoline would quickly be purged, so the oil's viscosity would revert to a less diluted, more normal level. At 100C, hmm...I think your HTHS would still be in safe territory for the bearings. At an oil temperature of 80C (which I think would be more consistent with driving in the kind of bitterly cold conditions that promote fuel dilution in the first place) then the KV of the oil, even with lots of fuel dilution, will be relatively high, so boundary conditions will almost certainly be avoided.

I tend to regard fuel dilution as God's way of helping engines in cold weather. Fuel dilution bought on my extreme cold will deffo help with cold startability and improve fuel economy during the warm-up phase.
Posted By: Bjornviken

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/06/18 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Bjornviken and zeng, Mobil1 AFE 0w30 is not ACEA A5. Since its dexos1 Gen2, it does include higher performance specs that cover most of A5. GM's dexos1 Gen2 is better on wear than A5, but not as tough on piston deposits. (Mobil1 5w30 is available that is ACEA A5 for those that think they need it.)

The subject of this thread, a Honda 1.5L in the U.S., does not require A5 nor dexos1 for that matter. Honda just says use a 0w20 that has SN. Going to a 0w30 SN is plenty here.



Yes it have dexos gen 2 but its still a acea a1. And A5 outperforms a A1 in a turbo engine according to the ACEA. We have Mobil 1 0w-30 api SL A5. Its rated to a api sl for its zddp levels.In a turbo Honda 0w-20 does not work according to uoa. I would go for the EU spec recommendation and see if its better. Would be nice to see how the annual protection(Mobil1) works. Hope they would bring it to the EU
Posted By: parshisa

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/06/18 11:41 AM

0w20 is working just fine. and the proof is my most recent UOA
Posted By: kjbock

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 04/07/18 02:36 AM

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Originally Posted By: parshisa
Theres a guy on civic x forum that is having engine replaced with 7000km only. Cam shaft damage due to low oil visocity as he claims.


That's terrible. Honda is so late to the DI game with no prior experience and are suffering from Gen 1 TGDI problems worse than other manufacturers when they had their Gen 1 DI systems, 2 or 3 generations ago. It's rather unfortunate


Did you read the whole story? The guy just had his oil changed at the dealer, then it blows in a couple weeks? No way the oil sheared and failed that fast. The dealer screwed something up (over or under filled?)
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/03/18 02:23 PM

oil dilution is simply an operational hazard. As engines get smaller and more efficient in order to deal with these EPA mandates, there really isn't much more any manufacturer can do. Oil dilution is nothing new. When you're shoving 14 pounds of boost mixed with fuel into a cylinder and no matter how "tight" the rings are, some of it will be forced through the cylinder. It's GOING to happen. Everybody is freaking out about this when you look at civic and crv forums. Almost a knee jerk reaction without understanding the situation. In the case of short drives, that is considered extreme and EVERY manufacturer tells you in the owners manual to change the oil way more frequently, say around 5K or so. Nothing new there.
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/03/18 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
oil dilution is simply an operational hazard. As engines get smaller and more efficient in order to deal with these EPA mandates, there really isn't much more any manufacturer can do. Oil dilution is nothing new. When you're shoving 14 pounds of boost mixed with fuel into a cylinder and no matter how "tight" the rings are, some of it will be forced through the cylinder. It's GOING to happen. Everybody is freaking out about this when you look at civic and crv forums. Almost a knee jerk reaction without understanding the situation. In the case of short drives, that is considered extreme and EVERY manufacturer tells you in the owners manual to change the oil way more frequently, say around 5K or so. Nothing new there.


It may be "normal" but it is not *optimal*. Keep in mind these cars have OLMs, which dictate OCI. More often than not they do not adjust adequately to accommodate the extreme use case you mentioned. Recommending low viscosity weight oil, when user experiences have shown a 20-25% reduction in viscosity, is irresponsible. Couple that with severe service short trips, and you have an engine that I would not want to buy used. These are legitimate concerns, not flights of fancy.
Posted By: CaspianM

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/04/18 11:29 AM

And Honda constantly pushing for 10k miles on FF? This sample shows how wrong Honda is.!
This oil is beat up and had been bet up for at least half the duration.
Now that you changed it, do a 4k mile or 6j km next time and take it from there how to access the interval. 10k miles is what it is and usually doesn't work on new engines and for some drivers.
Posted By: wemay

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/04/18 11:48 AM

I have to admit, we've seen quite a few reports like this.
5/10w30 and 5k miles would be my choice.
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/04/18 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Highkm
1st oil change on 2017 Honda CR-V 1.5l turbo. Note the level of fuel in oil. I has 20% of oil life before I changed the oil. I did very few short trips I.e less than 10km about 20 times in 11,000 Kim�s. I would say that Honda should limit the first use of oil to 5000kms otherwise the viscosity goes below acceptable levels. What do you think?


The level of fuel in the oil could also be if you took the sample incorrectly.
Oil must be at full operating temperature when sample is taken.

Other then that, enjoy your Honda, millions on the road dont have a UOA done and the engine rock solid. Me personally though, typically changes oil way before required, oil is cheap and I enjoy it.
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/04/18 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by alarmguy
Originally Posted by Highkm
1st oil change on 2017 Honda CR-V 1.5l turbo. Note the level of fuel in oil. I has 20% of oil life before I changed the oil. I did very few short trips I.e less than 10km about 20 times in 11,000 Kim�s. I would say that Honda should limit the first use of oil to 5000kms otherwise the viscosity goes below acceptable levels. What do you think?


The level of fuel in the oil could also be if you took the sample incorrectly.
Oil must be at full operating temperature when sample is taken.

Other then that, enjoy your Honda, millions on the road dont have a UOA done and the engine rock solid. Me personally though, typically changes oil way before required, oil is cheap and I enjoy it.


2017 is the first year with DI turbo. I agree the 2.4 NA will last a lifetime.
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 02:34 PM

2017 is not the first year, it came out in the 2016 civic model.
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
2017 is not the first year, it came out in the 2016 civic model.


This thread is about the CRV.

Regardless, still a short life. It's premature to draw conclusion about how reliable this engine is with three whole years of service.
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 02:45 PM

even though I've been here a while, I never really got into the matrix of oil analysis, until now. School me if needed, but I have a question. That UOA on page 2 shows a sus visc. at 210 to be at 44.8. According to the visc. charts, that shows the oil sheared down just a tad below a 20W, which would still be high for a 10W. Looking at the Cst visc. at 100 and it showed 5.65. That equates to about the same, below the 20W, but high on the 10W. My question, yes, it's not in spec with a 20W oil, but it still is a strong 10W weighted oil. After reading a lot of post on this, I was lead to believe that the oil is absolutely trashed and will kill your engine because it's out of range. However, it is still protecting the engine as a 10W oil. Notice, I used the word protecting. Does a 10W oil not protect an engine also? The only spec that it's out of is because it now doesn't identify with a 20W, but that should be expected especially since it's a turbo and getting the heck beat out of it. I'm willing to bet that Honda knew this and tested for this as well and they are OK with it. I've read numerous forum from civic and crv owners that complained about dilution, but that's all they've done. Complain. I've only read one post that the owner claimed the dilution eroded his cams and caused engine failure and Honda is now giving him a new engine. The more I research into this, the more I'm learning that this whole dilution thing isn't that bad as everyone is making it out to be. The sky is NOT falling.
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by webfors
Originally Posted by Schmoe
2017 is not the first year, it came out in the 2016 civic model.


This thread is about the CRV.

Regardless, still a short life. It's premature to draw conclusion about how reliable this engine is with three whole years of service.

Understood, the it's the exact same engine. I'd think civic owners are a little more "gas foot" happier in a civic as opposed to a CRV
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
even though I've been here a while, I never really got into the matrix of oil analysis, until now. School me if needed, but I have a question. That UOA on page 2 shows a sus visc. at 210 to be at 44.8. According to the visc. charts, that shows the oil sheared down just a tad below a 20W, which would still be high for a 10W. Looking at the Cst visc. at 100 and it showed 5.65. That equates to about the same, below the 20W, but high on the 10W. My question, yes, it's not in spec with a 20W oil, but it still is a strong 10W weighted oil. After reading a lot of post on this, I was lead to believe that the oil is absolutely trashed and will kill your engine because it's out of range. However, it is still protecting the engine as a 10W oil. Notice, I used the word protecting. Does a 10W oil not protect an engine also? The only spec that it's out of is because it now doesn't identify with a 20W, but that should be expected especially since it's a turbo and getting the heck beat out of it. I'm willing to bet that Honda knew this and tested for this as well and they are OK with it. I've read numerous forum from civic and crv owners that complained about dilution, but that's all they've done. Complain. I've only read one post that the owner claimed the dilution eroded his cams and caused engine failure and Honda is now giving him a new engine. The more I research into this, the more I'm learning that this whole dilution thing isn't that bad as everyone is making it out to be. The sky is NOT falling.


Time will tell, but my money is on premature wear and possibly failure, depending on your definition of failure. Will it get most owners to 100k miles? Dunno, but they won't be the impenetrable 2.4 NA non-DI engines of the past, that I will guarantee you.

I shudder to think what the HTHS is of the oils that come out of these engines. Is there an explicit statement from Honda that a HTHS of ~2.0 will fully protect these engines under all use cases? Doubt it.
Posted By: Mainia

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 10:14 PM

On my 2018 Hyundai Kona AWD 1.6 Turbo, Hyundai specs 5-30 and 5-40 if you don't have 5-30. So in Minnesota summers it gets 0w-40 (Amsoil or Redline) and winter it get 0-30. I have $100 a year for oil instead of say Mobil 1 or PP at $55 a year. $50 extra, I am game. banana
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/05/18 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mainia
On my 2018 Hyundai Kona AWD 1.6 Turbo, Hyundai specs 5-30 and 5-40 if you don't have 5-30. So in Minnesota summers it gets 0w-40 (Amsoil or Redline) and winter it get 0-30. I have $100 a year for oil instead of say Mobil 1 or PP at $55 a year. $50 extra, I am game. banana


Looks like Hyundai gets it.
Posted By: mtxjohn

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/11/18 04:23 PM

Terrible UOA. Extremely high wear and low viscosity. Time for a real synthetic
Posted By: kschachn

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/11/18 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by mtxjohn
Terrible UOA. Extremely high wear and low viscosity. Time for a real synthetic

Lol let me guess the brand.

Looking back at your post history is all one needs to do.
Posted By: StevieC

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/11/18 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by mtxjohn
Terrible UOA. Extremely high wear and low viscosity. Time for a real synthetic


Terrible UOA? For an engine with this low of mileage? shrug
Posted By: JohnnyJohnson

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/11/18 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by mtxjohn
Terrible UOA. Extremely high wear and low viscosity. Time for a real synthetic


Terrible UOA? For an engine with this low of mileage? shrug


100% what Steve says.
Posted By: Danh

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 01:42 PM

Fwiw, Consumer Reports is now on the case after multiple reader reports of excessive fuel dilution in Honda’s 1.5T CRV engine. CR has asked for more reader input and has contacted Honda.

If Honda has been bad at responding to owners, CR seems to have its attention. CR says Honda is aware of the issue and will have a fix available to dealers by mid-November and 2019 models will be delivered with the fix applied.

No news about what the fix is, how comprehensive it might be, whether it applies to all 1.5T models and how it will be applied to 2016/17/18 models (I.e. all or just those that have demonstrated the problem).

So, this could be good news for owners. Or maybe it will just focus on behavior in very cold-weather climes and do nothing for what seems to be designed-in fuel dilution elsewhere. We’ll see.
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 02:06 PM

Of all the forums I've read about this and the facebook pages, and also the Civic 1.5T is NOT the same engine, I bet there are maybe....400 that have said they are having some dilution problems. There are only a handful that have claimed to have something in the order of 7 plus liters of "oil" drained from their crankcase. Now, Honda has sold well over 500000 of these CRV's with the 1.5T engine in them.....heck, let's say 1000 have some sort of issue...that's what 0.2%? 0.2%. Think about it. How many other manufacturers wish that only had that many complaints. I think Honda is being raked over the coals from social media and has created a juggernaut that is exploding exponentially without really understanding the situation.
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
Of all the forums I've read about this and the facebook pages, and also the Civic 1.5T is NOT the same engine, I bet there are maybe....400 that have said they are having some dilution problems. There are only a handful that have claimed to have something in the order of 7 plus liters of "oil" drained from their crankcase. Now, Honda has sold well over 500000 of these CRV's with the 1.5T engine in them.....heck, let's say 1000 have some sort of issue...that's what 0.2%? 0.2%. Think about it. How many other manufacturers wish that only had that many complaints. I think Honda is being raked over the coals from social media and has created a juggernaut that is exploding exponentially without really understanding the situation.


I would bet 99% of people don't bother to voice their opinions online. We bitogers are the exception, not the norm. What we should be looking at is the ratio of non turbo-DI complaints vs turbo-DI complaints from Honda owners.

The reality is, these engines will probably last a good long time as long as owners take some responsibility for mitigating against the inherent risks of DI (especially forced induction DI). Run a 30 weight, change more often, run an intake cleaner from birth. I bet my ATS engine will be fine with that regiment.

Or don't, have complete blind faith in Honda, and wait and see grin
Posted By: StevieC

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by webfors
I would bet 99% of people don't bother to voice their opinions online. We bitogers are the exception, not the norm. What we should be looking at is the ratio of non turbo-DI complaints vs turbo-DI complaints from Honda owners.


I spent all of Thanksgiving Monday complaining about the Toyota transmission in threads others started in other forums, followed by writing reviews to places like Edmunds, CR etc. anywhere I could to warn others how terrible the 8-speeds are from them.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 02:24 PM

I thought it was the same engine but with a different tune?
Posted By: Danh

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
Of all the forums I've read about this and the facebook pages, and also the Civic 1.5T is NOT the same engine, I bet there are maybe....400 that have said they are having some dilution problems. There are only a handful that have claimed to have something in the order of 7 plus liters of "oil" drained from their crankcase. Now, Honda has sold well over 500000 of these CRV's with the 1.5T engine in them.....heck, let's say 1000 have some sort of issue...that's what 0.2%? 0.2%. Think about it. How many other manufacturers wish that only had that many complaints. I think Honda is being raked over the coals from social media and has created a juggernaut that is exploding exponentially without really understanding the situation.


It is the same engine with slightly different tunes. And, if the problem is as rare as you think, isn’t it curious that Honda is releasing a solution and delivering 2019 models with it applied?
Posted By: Eddie

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 03:35 PM

I wouldn't purchase a "Hobby" vehicle where I need to be concerned about extra oil changes, special valve cleaning regiments and the like. I would wait until HONDA gets their act together. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my CX5 DI engine that has shown no fuel dilution over a few tenths over three UOAs. Ed
Posted By: oil_film_movies

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/12/18 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie
I wouldn't purchase a "Hobby" vehicle where I need to be concerned about extra oil changes, special valve cleaning regiments and the like. I would wait until HONDA gets their act together. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my CX5 DI engine that has shown no fuel dilution over a few tenths over three UOAs. Ed
Its not that bad. Really all these fuel diluting 1.5T owners need to do is keep the oil near the half-way point, between Add & Full, then in about 4,000 miles into the oil change interval, put in a cup of either STP Oil Treatment (200 cSt KV100) or Schaeffer #132 Moly EP Engine Oil Treatment (238 cSt KV100) thick goop, both very mixable and not harmful, meant to be compatible. Put in another cup at the 8,000 mile point if going the full 10k miles on the oil change. Keeps the visc up where it should be.
Also, this lets you document the use of Honda-spec 0w20 in case they want to get nutty about engine failure warranty claims, if it happens.

If Highkm the OP (with 5.6 cSt KV100) would have done this, he would have ended up with about ~7.5 cSt at the end, enough to keep the Stribeck curve contented.
Posted By: Danh

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/13/18 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by Eddie
I wouldn't purchase a "Hobby" vehicle where I need to be concerned about extra oil changes, special valve cleaning regiments and the like. I would wait until HONDA gets their act together. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my CX5 DI engine that has shown no fuel dilution over a few tenths over three UOAs. Ed
Its not that bad. Really all these fuel diluting 1.5T owners need to do is keep the oil near the half-way point, between Add & Full, then in about 4,000 miles into the oil change interval, put in a cup of either STP Oil Treatment (200 cSt KV100) or Schaeffer #132 Moly EP Engine Oil Treatment (238 cSt KV100) thick goop, both very mixable and not harmful, meant to be compatible. Put in another cup at the 8,000 mile point if going the full 10k miles on the oil change. Keeps the visc up where it should be.
Also, this lets you document the use of Honda-spec 0w20 in case they want to get nutty about engine failure warranty claims, if it happens.

If Highkm the OP (with 5.6 cSt KV100) would have done this, he would have ended up with about ~7.5 cSt at the end, enough to keep the Stribeck curve contented.


Even if viscosity were the only measure of lubricant effectiveness (it isn’t: my grandmother’s pea soup had a cSt of probably 20-something), what are the odds of the average Honda owner doing as you suggest?
Posted By: oil_film_movies

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/13/18 05:50 PM

Danh, granted there is a possibility all that extra fuel (up to 20:1 we've seen) might create blacker pistons, no doubt. That's probably about it. Oil has dispersants and cleaning chemicals that do their job. I wouldn't worry too much about fuel dilution as long as one is nudging viscosity upward a bit, using one of the thick liquids I listed above.

As for the "odds of the average Honda owner" putting in a thick liquid to prop viscosity up, according to wear results we've seen on UOAs, Fe ppms, these engines still basically do OK with thin oil if they don't top off. ... Topping up with occasional thick liquids is just more insurance I think.

And, when you read what bitog poster MolaKule revealed on old posts about Schaeffer Moly EP #132 oil treatment, its ester, antimony EP/AW, and a little moly, with dispersants to fight fuel gremlins, preferable over the STP cheaper stuff.
Posted By: Artem

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/14/18 01:56 AM

I think Eddie said it best, below. No way will I buy a vehicle that is 100% a nightmare to maintain past the warranty period and all this activity costs me a kidney or two to fund. <— Forget that nonsense. I’ll let your average Joe play the test rat game with these manufacturers and their new technology that nobody asked for.

The days of producing a simple, clean running durable engine was done in the 90s. Honda’s D and B series engines come to mind.

I hesitated buying my 2014 Mazda 3 due to the Di fuel delivery but since Mazda’s Skyactiv engine design showed no problems since it was introduced in 2012, I felt confident enough to take my chances on it with the 2014 model. It’s been an excellent car thus far @ 72,000 miles. Just oil changes.


Originally Posted by Eddie
I wouldn't purchase a "Hobby" vehicle where I need to be concerned about extra oil changes, special valve cleaning regiments and the like. I would wait until HONDA gets their act together. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my CX5 DI engine that has shown no fuel dilution over a few tenths over three UOAs. Ed
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/14/18 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Artem
I think Eddie said it best, below. No way will I buy a vehicle that is 100% a nightmare to maintain past the warranty period and all this activity costs me a kidney or two to fund. <— Forget that nonsense. I’ll let your average Joe play the test rat game with these manufacturers and their new technology that nobody asked for.

The days of producing a simple, clean running durable engine was done in the 90s. Honda’s D and B series engines come to mind.

I hesitated buying my 2014 Mazda 3 due to the Di fuel delivery but since Mazda’s Skyactiv engine design showed no problems since it was introduced in 2012, I felt confident enough to take my chances on it with the 2014 model. It’s been an excellent car thus far @ 72,000 miles. Just oil changes.


Originally Posted by Eddie
I wouldn't purchase a "Hobby" vehicle where I need to be concerned about extra oil changes, special valve cleaning regiments and the like. I would wait until HONDA gets their act together. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my CX5 DI engine that has shown no fuel dilution over a few tenths over three UOAs. Ed



Fuel dilution is only one variable. Mazda is not immune to intake valve deposits. All of us can ignore the issues and pretend they aren't there, and I'm sure we'll all get 100k+ miles of relatively trouble-free service from our engines.
Posted By: Artem

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/14/18 02:28 PM

Hey, if after 100k miles of use, these engines now require an intake manifold removal and walnut blasting the intake valves in order to get another 100k of use, and this is now consisted “normal” and the direction the auto industry is going, then this should be stated loudly and proudly in the service manual, so potential buyers can anticipate the cost and down time into the overall cost of ownership.

If this new tech give an extra 1mpg gain but costs $1,500 in maintenance some 60,000 miles later, how does that make ANY sense at all? I’d settle for 0.5mpg gain and save the walnuts for something else. Lol
Posted By: webfors

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/14/18 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Artem
Hey, if after 100k miles of use, these engines now require an intake manifold removal and walnut blasting the intake valves in order to get another 100k of use, and this is now consisted “normal” and the direction the auto industry is going, then this should be stated loudly and proudly in the service manual, so potential buyers can anticipate the cost and down time into the overall cost of ownership.

Agreed.
Originally Posted by Artem

If this new tech give an extra 1mpg gain but costs $1,500 in maintenance some 60,000 miles later, how does that make ANY sense at all? I’d settle for 0.5mpg gain and save the walnuts for something else. Lol

Or run a $10 bottle of CRC Intake Valve cleaner every 10k. I was anti-DI until I drove a few... more power/torque/responsiveness and more mpg. It's worth a little extra maintenance IMO. You're going to run out of options to avoid DI unless you keep buying progressively older cars grin
Posted By: Smokescreen

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/15/18 02:17 AM

...^^ and that is my plan until more cars come out that have addressed the problem...after which I may then obtain one.
Posted By: Eddie

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/15/18 11:34 AM

I would add that many engines don't have fuel dilution issues to the extent that HONDA does. Back to the drawing board HONDA. Ed
Posted By: Schmoe

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/15/18 02:37 PM

I disagree. The only news you read on social media is the bad news. You know how many 100' of thousands of folks with the CRV are totally happy with it???
Posted By: Danh

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 10/15/18 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Schmoe
I disagree. The only news you read on social media is the bad news. You know how many 100' of thousands of folks with the CRV are totally happy with it???


Maybe, but considering most owners never open hoods or check their oil these days, fuel dilution typically doesn’t result in a car that doesn’t work and 98% of owners have no idea what fuel dilution is I’m not sure that’s a good gauge either.

Here’s what you can do: look through the UOAs for Honda 1.5Ts that are posted here. See how many you can find with fuel dilution less than 5% if measured by gas chromotography (e.g. Oil Analyzers) or have viscosity trashed (Blackstone). I’ll save you the trouble and provide the answer: 1.

Fuel dilution is common with DI/TGDI engines but Honda seems to be about the worst offender. Mazda and Ford had early issues but made changes pretty quickly. Honda hasn’t.
Posted By: kr_bitog

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 11/06/18 04:03 AM

I think Honda has admitted the fuel dilution mostly happen during winter time where the engine does not heat up the oil pan enough to evaporate all the fuel diluted in the oil. So if you are not short tripper then the problem should not be severe
Posted By: dbier

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 11/27/18 05:41 PM

Wow! I just bought a 2018 CRV after reading about the great safety ratings - now I just stumbled across this issue.

My son noticed right away this past weekend (28 degrees out) that it took a very long for the CRV temp gauge to rise - and it would drop while sitting at a stoplight. I've read that Honda is going to do some recall tweaking to try to get the engines to warm up faster and higher (starting to roll out in 5 states this December) - but in the meanwhile I plan to change my oil every 3,000 miles in winter and 5,000 miles in summer. Also, I noticed that if I use S (SPORT) instead of D (DRIVE) the increased revs warms the engine up much faster - so I plan to use S at least in during initial winter warm-ups.

Hopefully these precautions will help (let me know your thoughts) - but it really sucks that I have to think about this on a car bought 4 days ago!
Posted By: john_pifer

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 11/28/18 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by parshisa
How did the level look like on the dipstick? How much have you drained? I bet it was over 4qts. Just run premium gasoline and real synthetic oil and fuel dilution will be almost gone.


What's your point in saying to use premium? Are you implying that there will be less pinging/knocking on premium, and, therefore, the ECU won't run the mixture as rich, resulting in less fuel contamination?
Posted By: BTLew81

Re: 1.5L Honda turbo oil dilution - 11/30/18 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by parshisa
How did the level look like on the dipstick? How much have you drained? I bet it was over 4qts. Just run premium gasoline and real synthetic oil and fuel dilution will be almost gone.


What's your point in saying to use premium? Are you implying that there will be less pinging/knocking on premium, and, therefore, the ECU won't run the mixture as rich, resulting in less fuel contamination?


I believe that’s what he means. I’m not sure it will eliminate it, but it will help.
© 2019 Bob Is The Oil Guy