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Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead

Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 09/05/15 05:37 AM

Car is a 2006 Corvette Z06. I bought it from an old geezer (older than me!). So it wasn't abused. Been putting Redline 5w30 in every 4k miles. Car is a daily driver with 2 Auto Cross days (car would be driven harder on a canyon cruise)

Car uses about 1/3 of a guart every oil change which is pretty good in my experience. The oil pressure is unchanged and very good since I took ownership.

Please give me your input on the lead content !!!



cheers
DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 05:45 AM

Car is a 2006 Corvette Z06. I bought it from an old geezer (older than me!). So it wasn't abused. Been putting Redline 5w30 in every 4k miles. Car is a daily driver with 2 Auto Cross days (car would be driven harder on a canyon cruise)

Car uses about 1/3 of a guart every oil change which is pretty good in my experience. The oil pressure is unchanged and very good since I took ownership.

Please give me your input on the lead content !!!

Also whats up with the fluctuating Magnesium ??



cheers
DH
Posted By: Benito

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 09/05/15 05:51 AM

Redline 5w30 has virgin viscosity at 100c of 11.9cst, HTHSv of 3.7 and NOACK of 6%.

Blackstone didn't seem to realize this.

While your lead is higher than universal averages, your iron is lower.

Maybe change oil. What do GM say you should use? Isn't it M1?

That would certainly get your iron in line with the universal average. hide grin2
Posted By: HKPolice

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 06:30 AM

Looks like main bearing or cam bearing wear. Both contain copper & lead underneath a steel coating. Most likely cam wear because LS engines are known to chew up cams. Worn cam bearings won't cause extra oil consumption, it'll just wear the camshaft out over time.

I'd crack open the valve covers and take a look. If the cams look fine then main bearings = huge PITA.
Posted By: Merkava_4

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 09/05/15 07:32 AM

The car might need a different viscosity or a different oil altogether.
Posted By: LubeLuke

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 09/05/15 09:28 AM

Lead at 39ppm is not high.
When you get above 50 ppm then monitor. Above 100ppm indicates there MAY be a problem.
The same for Iron.
Posted By: Cujet

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 09:29 AM

I'd try the obvious. Try a more viscous oil. While it's impossible to predict where the lead is coming from, it could be from highly loaded bearings and insufficient viscosity.

A simple move to a more viscous oil of the same type and brand, followed by another UOA may be illuminating.

In years past, highly loaded CSB's performed very well on oils heavier than what you are using.

Your engine develops it's higher power through increased displacement. Creating higher bearing loads. a GM press release that says the pistons themselves are 482 grams and the rods are 464 grams. I don't know if they reciprocating weights are more than the LS3, but I suspect they are. This would also lead to increased bearing loads.
Posted By: Greasymechtech

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 12:41 PM

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merchant...tegory_Code=C54

http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/access-z06-ls7.html

http://www.drysump.com/LS7%20Installation%20Instructions.htm

Redline is pretty thick and not skimping on additives.

Too ways to go thicker, thicker oil or cooler oil.
I'd try the later larger sump(GM 2009+ tank) or the LPE version above. I don't see the need for the A.R.E system. I would consider the pan trap/baffle from Aviad.

Try Redline 0w40.

What oil filter?
Posted By: Falken

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 09/05/15 01:38 PM

After reading up just now that Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W40 has a NOACK of 13, I just can't recommend Pennzoil products anymore.

I would seriously pull out the Big Guns and go Amsoil SSO 0W40 for two OCIs and get another oil report.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/mo...etic-motor-oil/

I just don't think Red Line is working out on your car. And yes I agree with others the 30wt might be too thin!
Posted By: chrly919

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 01:40 PM

What's wrong with using what GM specs; Mobil 1 5W30? I use that in my 93 LT1 and my 2001 LS1. It's a LOT cheaper than Redline at Walmart. You can't check 'cams' bearings by removing the valve covers. There's only one cam, it's in the block. Never heard of them chewing up bearings.
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 02:30 PM

Originally Posted By: chrly919
What's wrong with using what GM specs; Mobil 1 5W30?


In the land of BiTOG, where every single PPM matters, other oils have consistently shown lower wear numbers in GM small-blocks. Red Line is not one of those, however.

Posted By: btanchors

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 02:48 PM

Dirty:

I don't know a thing about Corvettes, so I cannot speak to the lead content. But you also asked about the magnesium. I'm pretty sure this is from a prior oil that had significant amounts of magnesium in its additive package. For some reason, magnesium is one of those additives that takes several OCIs to completely "wash out" of the engine. The fact that it is progressively lower with each UOA shows this.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 02:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'd try the obvious. Try a more viscous oil. While it's impossible to predict where the lead is coming from, it could be from highly loaded bearings and insufficient viscosity.

A simple move to a more viscous oil of the same type and brand, followed by another UOA may be illuminating.

In years past, highly loaded CSB's performed very well on oils heavier than what you are using.

Your engine develops it's higher power through increased displacement. Creating higher bearing loads. a GM press release that says the pistons themselves are 482 grams and the rods are 464 grams. I don't know if they reciprocating weights are more than the LS3, but I suspect they are. This would also lead to increased bearing loads.


^^This. GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.
Posted By: Merkava_4

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 08:23 PM

Originally Posted By: chrly919
What's wrong with using what GM specs; Mobil 1 5W30?


That's fine if you're just driving your car to the grocery store at 35 mph, but this guy is racing his Corvette.
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.


Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/05/15 11:13 PM

IIRC, GM uses M1 0w-40 in their Corvette Race Program. I'd suggest trying that. It is also like half the price, which is a nice plus.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 03:17 AM

I want to thank everyone for their input.

Here are some clarifications to questions asked.

1. Yes, I didn't notice that the Magnesium was indeed dropping every OCI
2. I use the stock Ac Delco recommended filter
3. I decided to use Redline because I was under the impression that it was the best and I was not concerned
about its cost. I was using Mobil1 0w40 on last car when road racing.
4. This Corvette is NOT being road raced like my last one. It will only see 1 AutoX per month. That equates to
about 10 minutes of hard driving in 2nd gear. This is easier than a cruise through the canyon. The motor
barely gets hot and there is no comparison to road racing.
5. Because I am not road racing I am not going to go with the larger oil capacity as I did on last car. I actually
have to try hard in low gears on street to get the oil up to 200* Mostly the car sees 150* and 50-60 psi.

Thanks
DH
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.


Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?


Here's some Z06 discussion:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3586726-15w-50-oil-for-track-events.html
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 10:33 AM

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.


Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?


Here's some Z06 discussion:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3586726-15w-50-oil-for-track-events.html


You do realize you're linking to a C7 Z06 discussion, right? As I said before:

"Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?"

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Here are some clarifications to questions asked.


I'll do the same. Listen, DH:

1. Go to Walmart.
2. Get Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Fram XG10060.
3. Run for same mileage as you've been doing, and get another analysis.
4. Report back with the results.
Posted By: demarpaint

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 12:58 PM

I'd love to see a UOA after a few runs of Mobil 1 0W40.
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 03:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.


Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?


Here's some Z06 discussion:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3586726-15w-50-oil-for-track-events.html


You do realize you're linking to a C7 Z06 discussion, right? As I said before:

"Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?"

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Here are some clarifications to questions asked.


I'll do the same. Listen, DH:

1. Go to Walmart.
2. Get Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Fram XG10060.
3. Run for same mileage as you've been doing, and get another analysis.
4. Report back with the results.


Why Castrol Edge? Isn't Mobil 1 what GM spec'd for the 2006 Corvette? Do you have any documentation from GM requiring the use of Castrol Edge?
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 03:53 PM

You could have said that you made a mistake with your original statement, and just moved on. Instead, you want to double down? Fine.

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Why Castrol Edge? Isn't Mobil 1 what GM spec'd for the 2006 Corvette? Do you have any documentation from GM requiring the use of Castrol Edge?


My suggestion is based upon analysis data that is widely available for GM small-blocks across the 'net. Did I say anything about GM recommending or specifying Castrol Edge? I did not, and your painfully inept attempt at trying to distract attention from your now second erroneous statement in this thread is absurd.

To that point - GM did not spec Mobil 1 for the '06 Z06. Per the owners manual:


Will you see Mobil 1 emblazoned oil fill cap? Sure.
Will you see a mention in the owners manual? Yes:
"Your vehicles engine is filled at the factory with a Mobil 1 synthetic oil, which meets all requirements for your vehicle."

However, marketing prowess is certainly not the same as specifying an oil for usage in this application.

Posted By: NYSteve

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 04:41 PM

Isn't Redline 5w-30 essentially a 40wt because of how thick it is?
Posted By: aquariuscsm

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 05:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
You could have said that you made a mistake with your original statement, and just moved on. Instead, you want to double down? Fine.

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Why Castrol Edge? Isn't Mobil 1 what GM spec'd for the 2006 Corvette? Do you have any documentation from GM requiring the use of Castrol Edge?


My suggestion is based upon analysis data that is widely available for GM small-blocks across the 'net. Did I say anything about GM recommending or specifying Castrol Edge? I did not, and your painfully inept attempt at trying to distract attention from your now second erroneous statement in this thread is absurd.

To that point - GM did not spec Mobil 1 for the '06 Z06. Per the owners manual:


Will you see Mobil 1 emblazoned oil fill cap? Sure.
Will you see a mention in the owners manual? Yes:
"Your vehicles engine is filled at the factory with a Mobil 1 synthetic oil, which meets all requirements for your vehicle."

However, marketing prowess is certainly not the same as specifying an oil for usage in this application.



Did I say "GM now specs 15W50 for the *06* Corvette"? Nope. Syntec also did not carry the GM4718M approval nor does Edge as per documentation you provided.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1570533
Posted By: Colt45ws

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 11:16 PM

4718M is obsolete and was replaced with dexos1. Anything that is dexos1 can be used as it meets the spec.
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 11:35 PM

Does Chevrolet recommend racing their vehicles?
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/06/15 11:58 PM

The Vette only has two real purposes. The first is for racing. The second is to satisfy old farts with too much money. wink
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 12:08 AM

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Did I say "GM now specs 15W50 for the *06* Corvette"? Nope. Syntec also did not carry the GM4718M approval nor does Edge as per documentation you provided.


When a grown adult has to unfortunately employ special pleading and tu quoque as the foundation for their discourse, there's no reason for me to continue the discussion with them; you'll just crudely attempt to spin-off in another direction in a vain attempt at deflecting attention from your false statements.

For the benefit of everyone else -- to now correct his third bit of misinformation, here's the word directly from Castrol during their Q&A here:

"Although it is no longer a current specification, Castrol EDGE with SYNTEC would meet the obsolete GM 4718 specification."

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/castrol-edge-qa/
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 04:14 AM

Again, thanks for the input guys.

I'm inclined to keep the GM AC/Delco filter that I have always used since 2008 on my LS7 motors.

It seems most think I should try another oil but no one is saying in what way these oils are better than Redline 5w30.

If do try something different for experimental purposes I would likely use Mobil1 0W40 as I have previously used it on my last LS7 when I was heavy into road racing.

DH
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 05:01 AM

I agree with greasymechtech, the Redline 0w40 is VERY VERY stout even compared to the 5w30. Example: [email protected] is ~40% higher than 5w30. Go to redlineoil.com and do the comparison in their technical info/product info area. There is a PDF that shows the product info on the whole range.
Posted By: 901Memphis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 06:52 AM

Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30 and a Fram Ultra
Posted By: dave1251

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 03:21 PM

You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 07:29 PM

Can you explain this please ??

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: dave1251
You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.


Can you explain this Please ?????

DH
Posted By: Greasymechtech

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 08:12 PM

HTHS

Mobil1 5w30 3.1
Mobil1 5w30HM 3.3
Redline 5w30 3.7
Mobil1 0w40 3.8
Redline 0w40 4.0

I am no fan of low HTHS oils in a performance application. Redline 5w30 is pretty close in HTHS to Mobil1 0w40. I see Mobil1 as a viable baby step-up in viscosity to see how the engine does with a couple UOA's prior to stepping up to Redline 0w40.

I am also no fan of OE filters without picking them apart to see how well they are constructed, especially with the various GM PN's available, and the endless change of filter's construction, supplier, requirements.... Fram XG, PureOne, Baldwin, Donaldson, Wix XP, Napa Platinum, Amsoil,... oil filters are some to consider
Posted By: dave1251

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Can you explain this please ??

DH


Redline has an chelate effect due to the esters it uses as a basestock and the chelating effect is more pronounced with fresh redline. Thus the more often you change redline the higher your metal readings are going to be in UOA's.
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: dave1251
You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.


Can you explain this Please ?????

DH


When you change your oil the new oil washes off the old oils anti-wear agents,which will increase wear,until the new oil applies its own anti-weat layers.
So frequent oil changes increases this action.
Wear trends downwards as miles rack up and we've seen used oil analysis where wear metals only increase a couple ppm on a 10000 mile run vs a 5000 mile run.
So the fools errand that claim changing oil once it's black doesn't lessen or improve wear trends. In fact the opposite is true.

I'm not sure that's what Dave was getting at but I figured I'd post
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 10:00 PM

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Can you explain this please ??

DH


Redline has an chelate effect due to the esters it uses as a basestock and the chelating effect is more pronounced with fresh redline. Thus the more often you change redline the higher your metal readings are going to be in UOA's.


Okay, thanks. I didn't know this.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/07/15 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: dave1251
You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.


Can you explain this Please ?????

DH


When you change your oil the new oil washes off the old oils anti-wear agents,which will increase wear,until the new oil applies its own anti-weat layers.
So frequent oil changes increases this action.
Wear trends downwards as miles rack up and we've seen used oil analysis where wear metals only increase a couple ppm on a 10000 mile run vs a 5000 mile run.
So the fools errand that claim changing oil once it's black doesn't lessen or improve wear trends. In fact the opposite is true.

I'm not sure that's what Dave was getting at but I figured I'd post


Would this affect all metal wear or only bearings?
My Alum and Iron has actually gone down.

DH
Posted By: Ramblejam

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 02:08 AM

Originally Posted By: dave1251
You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.


This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the chelate phenomenon.

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Redline has an chelate effect due to the esters it uses as a basestock and the chelating effect is more pronounced with fresh redline. Thus the more often you change redline the higher your metal readings are going to be in UOA's.


DH has now ran Red Line for several 3k-4k drain intervals. As such, any applicability of the effect at this point is miniscule, at best.

Let's face it, folks. While great within the confines of particular applications, the oil is simply a poor choice here -- excuses and varying justification aren't going to change that.
Posted By: dave1251

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 03:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: dave1251
You can continue to use Redline. If you want your lead PPM to decrease just do not change your oil so often.


This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the chelate phenomenon.

Nope try again.
Posted By: kschachn

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 04:08 PM

What is the "chelate phenomenon" of Redline? I know what chelates are in a general chemical sense, but I don't see how that would affect what is seen in an AA or ICP. Either the metallic element is there or it isn't, regardless if it is bound to a ligand. No organic compound is going to pass trough an AA flame or ICP and not be decomposed.
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 05:45 PM

My .02 is that the high Moly content of Redline is leaching lead from the conn rod small end bushings. This is the only thing that makes sense, as I believe the LS7 has aluminum-lined bearings everywhere else.

Try something with lower Moly. For street use and a monthly autocross, thick (higher than Xw30) oils and aftermarket dry-sump oil systems aren't required.
Posted By: kschachn

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
My .02 is that the high Moly content of Redline is leaching lead from the conn rod small end bushings. This is the only thing that makes sense, as I believe the LS7 has aluminum-lined bearings everywhere else.


Ahha, well my bad, leaching is certainly a better word then (or dissolving). Chelating compounds generally only sequester already existing metal ions, rendering them invisible to other processes. That's the first time I've ever heard the word used in the sense to extract a greater concentration than would otherwise be present.
Posted By: addyguy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 08:59 PM

I don't know if it has been asked, but any chance leaded race gas was used for the track events?

Or a gas additive/octane boost that had some lead in it?
Posted By: Brons2

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Can you explain this please ??

DH


Redline has an chelate effect due to the esters it uses as a basestock and the chelating effect is more pronounced with fresh redline. Thus the more often you change redline the higher your metal readings are going to be in UOA's.


I'm surprised nobody mentioned the chelation effect causing high lead on UOA before now. We've seen this in other Redline UOA's in the past. We just don't see as many Redline UOA's as we used to.

The high lead numbers are most likely spurious. I would talk to Redline's tech line about it. If they think it's fine then I'd stick with what you're doing now. The other numbers look good.

You might be a good use case for getting a higher end UOA from a former member of this board, he does $99 UOA's that are a lot more detailed. I'm not sure if mentioning his name is breaking the rules, though.
Posted By: Greasymechtech

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 11:02 PM

High lead is common GM garbage wearing itself out continually.

Some people feel important throwing out useless data.
Chelation... scare tactic....forget about it.
Moly issue... forget about it.

Go thicker or cooler. Obviously, the oiling system was so good that GM increased the sump size a couple years later. I would get the later sump or an aftermarket one that holds more oil. And, with either GM sump, consider the baffle mentioned in my earlier post.

What oil/water temps are you seeing at the end of the track run? and is the engine warmed up prior to starting the event?
Posted By: kschachn

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/15 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Brons2
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Redline has an chelate effect due to the esters it uses as a basestock and the chelating effect is more pronounced with fresh redline. Thus the more often you change redline the higher your metal readings are going to be in UOA's.


I'm surprised nobody mentioned the chelation effect causing high lead on UOA before now. We've seen this in other Redline UOA's in the past. We just don't see as many Redline UOA's as we used to.

You might be a good use case for getting a higher end UOA from a former member of this board, he does $99 UOA's that are a lot more detailed. I'm not sure if mentioning his name is breaking the rules, though.


It's been mentioned but not explained. Do you know what a chelating compound is and how it works? I'm still a little fuzzy on how that creates a higher ppm of metal in the oil.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/09/15 05:13 AM

More thanks for the very interesting conversation.

There has been no racing fuel or lead additives.

I have never heard that the bearings are aluminum lined.

I have heard enough feedback now to be concerned that the Redline may be the cause. So I will try a different oil on next fill. Unless you guys think its a bad idea I will use Mobile1 0w40 as I know having used it on my last LS7 that the lead was not elevated.

DH
Posted By: Greasymechtech

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/09/15 01:37 PM

It will take a few Mobil-1 0w40 runs to rinse that engine. Try it at least 2-3 times... should be interesting data.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/09/15 01:50 PM

I have emailed Redline and they mostly repeat whats in the comments section of the report. At first they were ok with the elevated level since it was consistant. On this last report as you can read it they are more concerned because of the stated spike.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/09/15 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
High lead is common GM garbage wearing itself out continually.

Some people feel important throwing out useless data.
Chelation... scare tactic....forget about it.
Moly issue... forget about it.

Go thicker or cooler. Obviously, the oiling system was so good that GM increased the sump size a couple years later. I would get the later sump or an aftermarket one that holds more oil. And, with either GM sump, consider the baffle mentioned in my earlier post.

What oil/water temps are you seeing at the end of the track run? and is the engine warmed up prior to starting the event?


I do not think I need the larger tank. It purpose is to provide more oil during prolonged high G left hand turns which can only be seen in a racing condition. Thats why I did upgrade on my last motor when I was racing. My oil temp is lower and pressure is higher than it used to be with larger tank running Mobil1 0w40. My driving conditions are exactly the same except for replacing 1 AutoX day with 1 Road Course day.

DH

Posted By: bigt61

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/09/15 08:01 PM

I have a feeling that many posters don't realize how powerful, exotic and badazz that LS7 really is. It would laugh at 2nd gear AutoX runs. Try the 0W-40 M1, maybe it's something in the Redline, but I kind of doubt it. Hopefully it's not a piece of dirt embedded in a bearing somewhere. Make sure the air filter is snug.

http://www.corvettemuseum.org/specs/2006/LS7.shtml
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/10/15 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By: bigt61
I have a feeling that many posters don't realize how powerful, exotic and badazz that LS7 really is. It would laugh at 2nd gear AutoX runs. Try the 0W-40 M1, maybe it's something in the Redline, but I kind of doubt it. Hopefully it's not a piece of dirt embedded in a bearing somewhere. Make sure the air filter is snug.

http://www.corvettemuseum.org/specs/2006/LS7.shtml


Yes. As I tried alluding to above. You don't need a larger sump than the stock 8qt capacitity of street and AutoX runs. 40 seconds of 2nd gear without redline at 7K is not a work out. Barely gets the oil warm.

I believe the air filter is fine. Its got 36K on it. I will be replacing it soon though. But I think my UAO would show contaminants if it were leaking.

So you would try the Mobil1 0w40 if it were your car/UAO ?

DH
Posted By: bigt61

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/10/15 01:32 PM

Either the 0W-40 or 15W-50 M1. I've used the latter in my big block Suburban when I used to tow race cars and I never had a problem with cold starts. The Suburban doesn't get driven much anymore so I'm changing over to the 0W-40 just for it's long life. I don't enjoy changing oil and the 5W-30 that's in it now has already been in since 2011. Your 39ppm lead isn't super high, but maybe higher than it should be for whatever reason. It's an expensive motor, I'd keep an eye on it with UOAs until things calm down.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/12/15 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: bigt61
Either the 0W-40 or 15W-50 M1. I've used the latter in my big block Suburban when I used to tow race cars and I never had a problem with cold starts. The Suburban doesn't get driven much anymore so I'm changing over to the 0W-40 just for it's long life. I don't enjoy changing oil and the 5W-30 that's in it now has already been in since 2011. Your 39ppm lead isn't super high, but maybe higher than it should be for whatever reason. It's an expensive motor, I'd keep an eye on it with UOAs until things calm down.


I would feel uncomfortable running 15w50 unless I was tracking it on a hot day.

My oil pressure is already pretty high. Startup is 60psi. I run it easy until oil temps get up to 150* otherwise I will exceed 80psi. Cruising on freeway at 1500rpm is 50psi. Idle psi is always above 30 unless its 200* and then it will settle at 30psi.

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/12/15 04:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
The Vette only has two real purposes. The first is for racing. The second is to satisfy old farts with too much money. wink
I am an old [censored]. why is the oil pressure too high?
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/12/15 07:27 AM

The only thing I could think of as to why there is high oil pressure observed in this Vette is that Red Line 5w-30 is a higher HTHS 5w-30 than one would normally use in the application, contrary to the talk about it being a thin grade. It has a HTHSV of 3.7 cP versus around 3.2 for M1 5w-30 and 3.0 to 3.1 for most ILSAC rated 5w-30 options.
Posted By: 285south

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/19/15 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
The car might need a different viscosity or a different oil altogether.


Or in your case a different FONT TYPE
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I don't know if it has been asked, but any chance leaded race gas was used for the track events?

Or a gas additive/octane boost that had some lead in it?



I was going to ask something similar. I also would suggest getting the heads redone to prevent a valve drop.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Shark
Originally Posted By: addyguy
I don't know if it has been asked, but any chance leaded race gas was used for the track events?

Or a gas additive/octane boost that had some lead in it?



I was going to ask something similar. I also would suggest getting the heads redone to prevent a valve drop.


No lead gas or octane boosters.

I know all about the vlave issue. I lost one LS7 on my last Vette. Had heads done at WCCH on replacement motor. This current motor is still under warranty.

DH
Posted By: Phishin

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 03:07 PM

Hey Dirty_Howie,

There was a guy on here a few years ago that owned several high performance cars, including a few late model Corvettes.

He posted a UOA once from his Vette that looked REALLY, REALLY good. His oil of choice: A 50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0w20 AFE and Mobil 1 Racing 0w50.

I can't seem to find the UOA now. But I remember it VERY WELL.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 04:17 PM

Bearing wear (lead) is caused by inadequate viscosity (too thin oil) and/or poor oil quality.

Don't insist on boutique oils such as Red Line or Royal Purple. Try a proven mainstream synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Ultra, which undergoes a lot more research and development. I am not a big fan but there is also Castrol Edge.

Also, definitely consider a thicker oil, such as 0W-40.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Bearing wear (lead) is caused by inadequate viscosity (too thin oil) and/or poor oil quality.

Don't insist on boutique oils such as Red Line or Royal Purple. Try a proven mainstream synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Ultra, which undergoes a lot more research and development. I am not a big fan but there is also Castrol Edge.

Also, definitely consider a thicker oil, such as 0W-40.

If you are racing, go even higher, such as synthetic xW-50 or xW-60.

Definitely change the oil brand though. Your engine probably doesn't like Red Line.
Posted By: turtlevette

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie


I have never heard that the bearings are aluminum lined.

DH


Aluminum or polymer. I don't think there is any lead or copper in that engine.



Posted By: Joshua_Skinner

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 06:41 PM

What's the connecting rod small end bushing made of?
Posted By: turtlevette

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/15 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
What's the connecting rod small end bushing made of?


I don't believe stock rods are bushed. Aftermarket stuff has brass bushings.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 05:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Hey Dirty_Howie,

There was a guy on here a few years ago that owned several high performance cars, including a few late model Corvettes.

He posted a UOA once from his Vette that looked REALLY, REALLY good. His oil of choice: A 50/50 mix of Mobil 1 0w20 AFE and Mobil 1 Racing 0w50.

I can't seem to find the UOA now. But I remember it VERY WELL.


Sorry, not interested in mixing oils. There should be one that works fine unless there is something wrong with my motor.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Bearing wear (lead) is caused by inadequate viscosity (too thin oil) and/or poor oil quality.

Don't insist on boutique oils such as Red Line or Royal Purple. Try a proven mainstream synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Ultra, which undergoes a lot more research and development. I am not a big fan but there is also Castrol Edge.

Also, definitely consider a thicker oil, such as 0W-40.


As I have said earlier. I used to use Mobil1 0w40 in my last LS7 motor. So I am not opposed to trying it. But I sure got the impression that Red Line was the best because of its base stock. And if you look at my report you will see that the viscosity is pretty high. My oil pressure is actually higer than with the Mobil1 0w40. I'm only doing street driving with a monthly AutoX which barely gets the oil over 200*

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 05:21 AM

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie


I have never heard that the bearings are aluminum lined.

DH


Aluminum or polymer. I don't think there is any lead or copper in that engine.

I'm no expert but I believe he bearings do have lead and that is the reason the bearings were changed to non leaded a year or two ago as required by the EU

DH


Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Bearing wear (lead) is caused by inadequate viscosity (too thin oil) and/or poor oil quality.

Don't insist on boutique oils such as Red Line or Royal Purple. Try a proven mainstream synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Ultra, which undergoes a lot more research and development. I am not a big fan but there is also Castrol Edge.

Also, definitely consider a thicker oil, such as 0W-40.

As I have said earlier. I used to use Mobil1 0w40 in my last LS7 motor. So I am not opposed to trying it. But I sure got the impression that Red Line was the best because of its base stock. And if you look at my report you will see that the viscosity is pretty high. My oil pressure is actually higer than with the Mobil1 0w40. I'm only doing street driving with a monthly AutoX which barely gets the oil over 200*

DH

Perhaps try Mobil 1 5W-50 then? Thicker oil should certainly help with bearing wear.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.aspx
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Bearing wear (lead) is caused by inadequate viscosity (too thin oil) and/or poor oil quality.

Don't insist on boutique oils such as Red Line or Royal Purple. Try a proven mainstream synthetic such as Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Ultra, which undergoes a lot more research and development. I am not a big fan but there is also Castrol Edge.

Also, definitely consider a thicker oil, such as 0W-40.

As I have said earlier. I used to use Mobil1 0w40 in my last LS7 motor. So I am not opposed to trying it. But I sure got the impression that Red Line was the best because of its base stock. And if you look at my report you will see that the viscosity is pretty high. My oil pressure is actually higer than with the Mobil1 0w40. I'm only doing street driving with a monthly AutoX which barely gets the oil over 200*

DH

Perhaps try Mobil 1 5W-50 then? Thicker oil should certainly help with bearing wear.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.aspx

Mobil 1 15W-50 seems easier to find.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSENPVLMOMobil1_15W-50.aspx

http://www.walmart.com/ip/20713647
Posted By: 901Memphis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/15 08:44 PM

Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40 has an HTHSV of 3.9, plus a very good balance of anti wear additives. I would give it a shot seriously.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 04:55 AM

Gokhan and Memphis

If I was still road racing I would consider one of these choices. But my car is a daily driver and gets at least 2 cold starts every day. Shouldn't I be worried about a thicker oil during the startups? And as I have indicated before the car has to be driven very hard to get the oil up to 200* so during the first 5-10 minutes of operation the rpm must be kept under 3K or the oil pressure exceeds 80psi and thats with the Redline 5/30. With either of the oils you are sugesting my pressure would be too high.

DH
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 05:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Gokhan and Memphis

If I was still road racing I would consider one of these choices. But my car is a daily driver and gets at least 2 cold starts every day. Shouldn't I be worried about a thicker oil during the startups? And as I have indicated before the car has to be driven very hard to get the oil up to 200* so during the first 5-10 minutes of operation the rpm must be kept under 3K or the oil pressure exceeds 80psi and thats with the Redline 5/30. With either of the oils you are sugesting my pressure would be too high.

DH


Cold starts aren't the problem. Warm up is.
When oil is cold it's thick and creates a hydrodynamic wedge keeping parts separated. When the oil starts heating up it thins,and that's when wear potential is at its peak because the additive package hasn't activated yet.
Once the oil is hot the additive package is operational.
So start up isn't the problem. Warm up is. So a thicker grade oil will keep parts separated better than a thinner one during warm up.
If a short tripper I'd go thicker personally and considering where you live thicker won't cause any issues whatsoever.
Posted By: miami993

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Clevy


Cold starts aren't the problem. Warm up is.
When oil is cold it's thick and creates a hydrodynamic wedge keeping parts separated. When the oil starts heating up it thins,and that's when wear potential is at its peak because the additive package hasn't activated yet.
Once the oil is hot the additive package is operational.
So start up isn't the problem. Warm up is. So a thicker grade oil will keep parts separated better than a thinner one during warm up.
If a short tripper I'd go thicker personally and considering where you live thicker won't cause any issues whatsoever.


smile cool

Christian
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Gokhan and Memphis

If I was still road racing I would consider one of these choices. But my car is a daily driver and gets at least 2 cold starts every day. Shouldn't I be worried about a thicker oil during the startups? And as I have indicated before the car has to be driven very hard to get the oil up to 200* so during the first 5-10 minutes of operation the rpm must be kept under 3K or the oil pressure exceeds 80psi and thats with the Redline 5/30. With either of the oils you are sugesting my pressure would be too high.

DH


Cold starts aren't the problem. Warm up is.
When oil is cold it's thick and creates a hydrodynamic wedge keeping parts separated. When the oil starts heating up it thins,and that's when wear potential is at its peak because the additive package hasn't activated yet.
Once the oil is hot the additive package is operational.
So start up isn't the problem. Warm up is. So a thicker grade oil will keep parts separated better than a thinner one during warm up.
If a short tripper I'd go thicker personally and considering where you live thicker won't cause any issues whatsoever.


Interesting. I have never heard that before. But it might make sense since my oil is almost always in the warming up process.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 05:46 PM

Given the HTHS of Red Line 5w-30 (3.7), remember that moving up isn't going to require just jumping to a 0w-40, which will likely have the same HTHS. That is, of course, assuming that there is a viscosity problem here, of which I am not convinced.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/24/15 07:42 PM

I probably wouldn't worry too much about the oil pressure being maxed out during warm-up. Just drive gently until the engine is at the normal operating temperature and this is so for any oil and engine.

Bearings are never supposed to have metal-to-metal contact (as they are hydrodynamically lubricated); so, antiwear additives are of minimal concern for the bearings, except at very low speeds (or start-up) or very high loads. Perhaps, thicker oil will help keeping the oil film from collapsing in your bearings and prevent metal-to-metal contact.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 04:34 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Given the HTHS of Red Line 5w-30 (3.7), remember that moving up isn't going to require just jumping to a 0w-40, which will likely have the same HTHS. That is, of course, assuming that there is a viscosity problem here, of which I am not convinced.


Sorry, I'm not sure what your point is and what your advise is concerning the Mobil1 0w40

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I probably wouldn't worry too much about the oil pressure being maxed out during warm-up. Just drive gently until the engine is at the normal operating temperature and this is so for any oil and engine.

Bearings are never supposed to have metal-to-metal contact (as they are hydrodynamically lubricated); so, antiwear additives are of minimal concern for the bearings, except at very low speeds (or start-up) or very high loads. Perhaps, thicker oil will help keeping the oil film from collapsing in your bearings and prevent metal-to-metal contact.


I understand your point. Why do you think GM recommends the much thinner Mobil1 5w30.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 11:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Sorry, I'm not sure what your point is and what your advise is concerning the Mobil1 0w40

My point basically was that a Red Line 5w-30 isn't anything like grabbing a Quaker State 5w-30. It has a much higher HTHS. Some here have suggested going "thicker" to a 0w-40. By going to a 0w-40, you might be increase your KV, but you're not likely to increase your HTHS, since most of the PCMO 0w-40 offerings have an HTHS of 3.7 anyhow, which will give you the same operational viscosity.

If it really is necessary to increase viscosity, to compare apples to apples, you'd want to do so within the Red Line realm of things, or, alternatively, find something with an HTHS of significantly over 3.7 from another manufacturer.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Sorry, I'm not sure what your point is and what your advise is concerning the Mobil1 0w40

My point basically was that a Red Line 5w-30 isn't anything like grabbing a Quaker State 5w-30. It has a much higher HTHS. Some here have suggested going "thicker" to a 0w-40. By going to a 0w-40, you might be increase your KV, but you're not likely to increase your HTHS, since most of the PCMO 0w-40 offerings have an HTHS of 3.7 anyhow, which will give you the same operational viscosity.

If it really is necessary to increase viscosity, to compare apples to apples, you'd want to do so within the Red Line realm of things, or, alternatively, find something with an HTHS of significantly over 3.7 from another manufacturer.


Okay thanks for the clarification. The reason I picked Redline was due to its better base stock and additives while providing a similar viscosity to the Mobil1 0w40 I was previously running in my last LS7

Some have suggested that the Redline forumulation is a contributing factor to the elevated lead ?????!!!!

DH
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
[quote=Garak]Okay thanks for the clarification. The reason I picked Redline was due to its better base stock and additives while providing a similar viscosity to the Mobil1 0w40 I was previously running in my last LS7

Some have suggested that the Redline forumulation is a contributing factor to the elevated lead ?????!!!!DH

You don't know whether it has a better base stock. In fact, you don't even know if it has the claimed HTHSV. That's because neither are required to be tested for API certification. (HTHSV is but the limit is 2.9 cP.) Especially with boutique oils like Red Line, you really don't know what you are getting.

Mobil 1 is recommended for virtually any high-performance car, including Porsche and Nissan GT-R. If its base stock wasn't of good quality, it wouldn't be.

Which OEM recommends Red Line?

I am not saying that Red Line is a bad oil -- perhaps it's really good -- but I wouldn't be too concerned about base-stock claims.

As Garak just said and I said earlier, try a much thicker oil, such as the cheap Mobil 1 15W-50 you can find at Walmart. You live in California; so, it's OK. Sure, GM recommends 5W-30, but that's when the engine doesn't have any problem. 15W-50 will work just fine and hopefully reduce wear.
Posted By: Clevy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 04:53 PM

B
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
[quote=Garak]Okay thanks for the clarification. The reason I picked Redline was due to its better base stock and additives while providing a similar viscosity to the Mobil1 0w40 I was previously running in my last LS7

Some have suggested that the Redline forumulation is a contributing factor to the elevated lead ?????!!!!DH

You don't know whether it has a better base stock. In fact, you don't even know if it has the claimed HTHSV. That's because neither are required to be tested for API certification. (HTHSV is but the limit is 2.9 cP.) Especially with boutique oils like Red Line, you really don't know what you are getting.

Mobil 1 is recommended for virtually any high-performance car, including Porsche and Nissan GT-R. If its base stock wasn't of good quality, it wouldn't be.

Which OEM recommends Red Line?

I am not saying that Red Line is a bad oil -- perhaps it's really good -- but I wouldn't be too concerned about base-stock claims.

As Garak just said and I said earlier, try a much thicker oil, such as the cheap Mobil 1 15W-50 you can find at Walmart. You live in California; so, it's OK. Sure, GM recommends 5W-30, but that's when the engine doesn't have any problem. 15W-50 will work just fine and hopefully reduce wear.


Have you ever used a redline product. Their label clearly states it's an ester and pao formulation,so unless you've got some kind or insider knowledge how about sticking to what you actually know.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 05:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
B[quote=Gokhan] Have you ever used a redline product. Their label clearly states it's an ester and pao formulation,so unless you've got some kind or insider knowledge how about sticking to what you actually know.

Isn't ester a highly problematic base oil, showing high wear in most applications?

Even PAO by itself is not a good base oil, unless it's balanced with carefully selected Group V base oils.

Once again, too much concern is being given on base oils, without even knowing what they do and what they don't.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
[quote=Garak]Okay thanks for the clarification. The reason I picked Redline was due to its better base stock and additives while providing a similar viscosity to the Mobil1 0w40 I was previously running in my last LS7

Some have suggested that the Redline forumulation is a contributing factor to the elevated lead ?????!!!!DH

You don't know whether it has a better base stock. In fact, you don't even know if it has the claimed HTHSV. That's because neither are required to be tested for API certification. (HTHSV is but the limit is 2.9 cP.) Especially with boutique oils like Red Line, you really don't know what you are getting.

Mobil 1 is recommended for virtually any high-performance car, including Porsche and Nissan GT-R. If its base stock wasn't of good quality, it wouldn't be.

Which OEM recommends Red Line?

I am not saying that Red Line is a bad oil -- perhaps it's really good -- but I wouldn't be too concerned about base-stock claims.

As Garak just said and I said earlier, try a much thicker oil, such as the cheap Mobil 1 15W-50 you can find at Walmart. You live in California; so, it's OK. Sure, GM recommends 5W-30, but that's when the engine doesn't have any problem. 15W-50 will work just fine and hopefully reduce wear.


Thanks for the explanation I totaly understand what you are recommending and why.

My concern would be the cold start lubrication of the 15w50 getting into the bearing space.

Also as I stated earlier my oil pressure is still pretty high and my understanding is that oil pressure over 80psi causes the oil to by pass the filter which obviously should be kept to a minimum.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 07:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Some have suggested that the Redline forumulation is a contributing factor to the elevated lead ?????!!!!

I don't think any of the Red Line stuff is API certified at all, with respect to Gokhan's comments, so you have to decide whether or not you trust Red Line. I do, and I wouldn't be quick to blame it.

Nonetheless, if you are going to go thicker, it'll be up only somewhat in the Red Line formulation, if you prefer to stay with Red Line. If you want to try a different brand, you're likely going to have to go to a significantly thicker SAE grade, as Gokhan indicates.

I really don't know what the answer is. All I really know, unfortunately, is that every purported solution has its own pitfalls. If it were me, I'd be tempted to stay with the same product or a bit higher within Red Line, so not to skew the trends. But, if the Red Line is for some reason leaching out lead and that's really not a problem, it's still going to show up, which changes nothing. If you change oil chemistries, and the lead disappears and it was still just Red Line somehow leaching out lead harmlessly, then you've only addressed a cosmetic issue. Of course, going much thicker brings out its own pitfalls, as you already indicated.

These are the problems with chasing UOA results, unfortunately.
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 07:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

You don't know whether it has a better base stock. In fact, you don't even know if it has the claimed HTHSV. That's because neither are required to be tested for API certification. (HTHSV is but the limit is 2.9 cP.) Especially with boutique oils like Red Line, you really don't know what you are getting.


OK I will play fanboy here. Redline is a very well known quantity on this board and by me personally. It's HTHS and Vis numbers generally are easily found in both the literature and in the tests done by board members down the years. It's OK to disagree but blanket negative (or positive) statements are almost always suspect.

[img]http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor%20Oil%20PDS%205-13.pdf[/img]
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 08:34 PM

Pressure - viscosity coefficient is also an important factor in oil-film thickness. I don't have this coefficient for ester base oil at hand but I suspect it is low and this maybe the reason for your high wear. I know some ester-based oils have performed ridiculously poorly in wear department.

If oil is the reason for high wear, you have all the reason to change not just the viscosity but even more importantly the brand. Don't fix something that is not broken but also don't insist that something broken will fix itself.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Pressure - viscosity coefficient is also an important factor in oil-film thickness. I don't have this coefficient for ester base oil at hand but I suspect it is low and this maybe the reason for your high wear. I know some ester-based oils have performed ridiculously poorly in wear department.

If oil is the reason for high wear, you have all the reason to change not just the viscosity but even more importantly the brand. Don't fix something that is not broken but also don't insist that something broken will fix itself.

The culprit is likely the ester base oil. See Table 1 in the following link:

http://www.skf.com/caribbean/products/be...oils/index.html

Ester base oils have the lowest pressure - viscosity coefficient among all base oils. This translates as your ester-based Red Line is actually performing more like a 5W-20 or perhaps a 5W-10 as far as the oil-film thickness is concerned. This is because the oil-film thickness is not only proportional to the viscosity but also the pressure - viscosity coefficient.

Once again, switch to a proven mainstream oil.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Pressure - viscosity coefficient is also an important factor in oil-film thickness. I don't have this coefficient for ester base oil at hand but I suspect it is low and this maybe the reason for your high wear. I know some ester-based oils have performed ridiculously poorly in wear department.

If oil is the reason for high wear, you have all the reason to change not just the viscosity but even more importantly the brand. Don't fix something that is not broken but also don't insist that something broken will fix itself.

The culprit is likely the ester base oil. See Table 1 in the following link:

http://www.skf.com/caribbean/products/be...oils/index.html

Ester base oils have the lowest pressure - viscosity coefficient among all base oils. This translates as your ester-based Red Line is actually performing more like a 5W-20 or perhaps a 5W-10 as far as the oil-film thickness is concerned. This is because the oil-film thickness is not only proportional to the viscosity but also the pressure - viscosity coefficient.

Once again, switch to a proven mainstream oil.


Well this seems to be the most coegent explanation of whats going on.

Unless further developements evolove I will most likely go back to the Mobil10w40. I have experience with it and feel it's viscosity performance for my driving conditions will be very similar to the Redline. I'm not comfortable trying a thicker oil like 15/w50.

When that UAO is taken I will be sure to post it and you guys can hopefully answer some of the questions that were raised here.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their input. It has been very helpful !!!!!!!!!!

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 11:32 PM

Gokhan, do recall that Red Line does have some very high levels of AW compounds, and it's certainly not a pure ester base. In fact, if I recall correctly, there is substantially more PAO than ester in it.

Personally, if it were me, I'd run Delvac 1, but you already knew that. wink
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/25/15 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Gokhan, do recall that Red Line does have some very high levels of AW compounds, and it's certainly not a pure ester base. In fact, if I recall correctly, there is substantially more PAO than ester in it.

Personally, if it were me, I'd run Delvac 1, but you already knew that. wink

AW/EP/FM additives don't help much in the bearings once you have metal-to-metal contact. They are more effective in the valvetrain, where you always have metal-to-metal contact.

PAO's pressure - viscosity coefficient is also on the low side, second worst, second worst only to ester, although not nearly as bad as ester. That's why you need some Group V with a high pressure - viscosity coefficient, or some Group III (or II) when you have a PAO-based oil.

I know you would run Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40. wink
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 12:56 AM

Yep, the Delvac conventional would probably work just fine. wink In any case, the Red Line base stocks, like anyone else's, are simply hard to quantify. I don't know what their ratios are like, but I don't think we tend to see a lot of problem with Red Line UOAs, all things being said.

As I noted, the pitfall here is we don't know what's going on here. Is this simply nothing? Is it coincidental? Is the Red Line giving us a strange result for no reason, or for a bad reason?
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Gokhan and Memphis

If I was still road racing I would consider one of these choices. But my car is a daily driver and gets at least 2 cold starts every day. Shouldn't I be worried about a thicker oil during the startups? And as I have indicated before the car has to be driven very hard to get the oil up to 200* so during the first 5-10 minutes of operation the rpm must be kept under 3K or the oil pressure exceeds 80psi and thats with the Redline 5/30. With either of the oils you are sugesting my pressure would be too high.

DH


Cold starts aren't the problem. Warm up is.
When oil is cold it's thick and creates a hydrodynamic wedge keeping parts separated. When the oil starts heating up it thins,and that's when wear potential is at its peak because the additive package hasn't activated yet.
Once the oil is hot the additive package is operational.
So start up isn't the problem. Warm up is. So a thicker grade oil will keep parts separated better than a thinner one during warm up.
If a short tripper I'd go thicker personally and considering where you live thicker won't cause any issues whatsoever.
I am really having a hard time with all this thin oil on startup. Thin oils are for CAFE standards. You only need a certain viscosity oil to keep the parts separated that is what the oil does. The additives are for when the oil film is smooshed away. For some use, a thicker oil may be beneficial. When an engine is cold and started the oil pump creates a vacuum then the oil hopefully flows into the pump the proper viscosity is important for the temperature. There are viscosity temp charts to help us out. With a cold engine there is much more friction and the engine "carbureted, port fuel injected or direct injection" needs a richer mixture to compensate for the poor vaporization of the gasoline I'll leave out heating up the cats quicker. And yes the oil is thicker and needs more power to pump .RICHER AIR FUEL MIXTURE AND HIGHER IDLE SPEED. But the clearances are engineered to work at operating temps. so the cold engines clearances are looser than when at operating temps. But whoa! The pistons are not only looser cold but the clearances depend on if the pistons are forged, cast or cast hyperutectic are not round they are oval! measure a cold piston in fact the piston manufactures tell how to measure the pistons properly. So there is more blow by and gas washing of cylinder walls from the richer mixture cyl oils. All the parts are clearanced for operating temps the valve stems/ guides crank rods everything, the valve lash on a solid lifter cam etc. Warm up way more than just the oil.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 02:51 AM

Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Gokhan and Memphis

If I was still road racing I would consider one of these choices. But my car is a daily driver and gets at least 2 cold starts every day. Shouldn't I be worried about a thicker oil during the startups? And as I have indicated before the car has to be driven very hard to get the oil up to 200* so during the first 5-10 minutes of operation the rpm must be kept under 3K or the oil pressure exceeds 80psi and thats with the Redline 5/30. With either of the oils you are sugesting my pressure would be too high.

DH


Cold starts aren't the problem. Warm up is.
When oil is cold it's thick and creates a hydrodynamic wedge keeping parts separated. When the oil starts heating up it thins,and that's when wear potential is at its peak because the additive package hasn't activated yet.
Once the oil is hot the additive package is operational.
So start up isn't the problem. Warm up is. So a thicker grade oil will keep parts separated better than a thinner one during warm up.
If a short tripper I'd go thicker personally and considering where you live thicker won't cause any issues whatsoever.
I am really having a hard time with all this thin oil on startup. Thin oils are for CAFE standards. You only need a certain viscosity oil to keep the parts separated that is what the oil does. The additives are for when the oil film is smooshed away. For some use, a thicker oil may be beneficial. When an engine is cold and started the oil pump creates a vacuum then the oil hopefully flows into the pump the proper viscosity is important for the temperature. There are viscosity temp charts to help us out. With a cold engine there is much more friction and the engine "carbureted, port fuel injected or direct injection" needs a richer mixture to compensate for the poor vaporization of the gasoline I'll leave out heating up the cats quicker. And yes the oil is thicker and needs more power to pump .RICHER AIR FUEL MIXTURE AND HIGHER IDLE SPEED. But the clearances are engineered to work at operating temps. so the cold engines clearances are looser than when at operating temps. But whoa! The pistons are not only looser cold but the clearances depend on if the pistons are forged, cast or cast hyperutectic are not round they are oval! measure a cold piston in fact the piston manufactures tell how to measure the pistons properly. So there is more blow by and gas washing of cylinder walls from the richer mixture cyl oils. All the parts are clearanced for operating temps the valve stems/ guides crank rods everything, the valve lash on a solid lifter cam etc. Warm up way more than just the oil.


Interesting point that the motor/bearing clearances are set for operating temps and should therefore be larger accomodating a thicker oil. These LS7 motors are notorious for premature valve guide wear. I wonder what the expected result would be for this part of the motor with a thicker oil ?????

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:10 AM

you will not know unless you try thicker oil. You don't need the 0W part unless you are starting up in below 0*f temps. If you want to Stay with redline try 10w-40. 15w-50 M1. Maybe 20w-50 Mobil1 motorcycle oil. You want to run the thinnest oil as not to cost you horse power yet thick enough to protect the engine when you pound on it. The hard part is finding out what is the truth.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By: CT8
you will not know unless you try thicker oil. You don't need the 0W part unless you are starting up in below 0*f temps. If you want to Stay with redline try 10w-40. 15w-50 M1. Maybe 20w-50 Mobil1 motorcycle oil. You want to run the thinnest oil as not to cost you horse power yet thick enough to protect the engine when you pound on it.


Whether he needs the 0w-xx part of it or not I believe GM runs M1 0w-40 in their own Track Program Corvette's so I don't think recommending it for this application is unusual.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Interesting point that the motor/bearing clearances are set for operating temps and should therefore be larger accomodating a thicker oil. These LS7 motors are notorious for premature valve guide wear. I wonder what the expected result would be for this part of the motor with a thicker oil ?????

DH

I think the only negative effect of thicker oil is increased fuel consumption and a slight loss in engine horsepower. Bearings especially always benefit from thicker oil. When you mention the bearing clearances, I guess you are worried about the oil pressure (too high) or oil flow (too low) not being right when the oil is too thick but I wouldn't worry too much. Engines can tolerate a rather wide viscosity range.

Valve guides operate in the boundary-lubrication (metal-to-metal contact) regime. In this regime, thicker oil is always better. Valve-stem oil seals are made to meter the oil flow, which depends on the viscosity, but again, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

I, myself, used very thick oil in the past (no UOAs) then very thin oil (OK UOAs). I will give the thicker oil a try in the next OCI and report how it differs from thinner oil.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:30 AM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CT8
you will not know unless you try thicker oil. You don't need the 0W part unless you are starting up in below 0*f temps. If you want to Stay with redline try 10w-40. 15w-50 M1. Maybe 20w-50 Mobil1 motorcycle oil. You want to run the thinnest oil as not to cost you horse power yet thick enough to protect the engine when you pound on it.


Whether he needs the 0w-xx part of it or not I believe GM runs M1 0w-40 in their own Track Program Corvette's so I don't think recommending it for this application is unusual.


This is what GM puts in the european Z06 version (same engine)

DH
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:31 AM

Now you've got me wondering. How does HTHSv play into the discussion of pressure viscosity coefficient? Does it matter if the "bearing" surface we are talking about is rolling or fixed (say a ball or other roller bearing as opposed to a regular babbit type)? Also, I looked back ten years worth of VOA/UOA's and am hard pressed to find a Redline test that sheared to a full lower grade. In fact most often the viscosity numbers are high for a given grade in the first place and are still very close to new when the UOA is run.

I am confused. I don't mean to outright defend the stuff if indeed the PVC metric has governing merit here but this is something I have not seen before and do not know how to evaluate. If it's "thicker" oil that is needed due to clearances why not go up to 5W50 with an HTHSv of 5.0 and 100 degree vis above 20! The first question is still probably the best - How does HTHSv relate, if at all, to PVC?

I do continue to suspect blanket suppositions relative to mineral, esters, PAGs, PAOs, et al as being generically strong or weak. We all know that lubricants are highly engineered to minimize their weaknesses and are not amenable to generalized assumptions. Apologies if I am dragging this out unnecessarily but it does look like a possibility to learn something.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Interesting point that the motor/bearing clearances are set for operating temps and should therefore be larger accomodating a thicker oil. These LS7 motors are notorious for premature valve guide wear. I wonder what the expected result would be for this part of the motor with a thicker oil ?????

DH

I think the only negative effect of thicker oil is increased fuel consumption and a slight loss in engine horsepower. Bearings especially always benefit from thicker oil. When you mention the bearing clearances, I guess you are worried about the oil pressure (too high) or oil flow (too low) not being right when the oil is too thick but I wouldn't worry too much. Engines can tolerate a rather wide viscosity range.

Valve guides operate in the boundary-lubrication (metal-to-metal contact) regime. In this regime, thicker oil is always better. Valve-stem oil seals are made to meter the oil flow, which depends on the viscosity, but again, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

I, myself, used very thick oil in the past (no UOAs) then very thin oil (OK UOAs). I will give the thicker oil a try in the next OCI and report how it differs from thinner oil.


Yes I am worried as you stated. I guess I have heard way too much about getting the most flow not the thickest oil on startup and initial engine warmup.

With the LS7 there is a concern that the valve seal is not letting in enough oil even with Mobil1 5w30. There are many performance shops that actually are slitting the seal to allow more oil in. So thicker could be a concern.

Maybe I should try Mobil1 10w40. That would change the base stock and be thicker ........... ????

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 03:42 AM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Now you've got me wondering. How does HTHSv play into the discussion of pressure viscosity coefficient? Does it matter if the "bearing" surface we are talking about is rolling or fixed (say a ball or other roller bearing as opposed to a regular babbit type)? Also, I looked back ten years worth of VOA/UOA's and am hard pressed to find a Redline test that sheared to a full lower grade. In fact most often the viscosity numbers are high for a given grade in the first place and are still very close to new when the UOA is run.

I am confused. I don't mean to outright defend the stuff if indeed the PVC metric has governing merit here but this is something I have not seen before and do not know how to evaluate. If it's "thicker" oil that is needed due to clearances why not go up to 5W50 with an HTHSv of 5.0 and 100 degree vis above 20! The first question is still probably the best - How does HTHSv relate, if at all, to PVC?

I do continue to suspect blanket suppositions relative to mineral, esters, PAGs, PAOs, et al as being generically strong or weak. We all know that lubricants are highly engineered to minimize their weaknesses and are not amenable to generalized assumptions. Apologies if I am dragging this out unnecessarily but it does look like a possibility to learn something.


As the OP I welcome any input and questions.

I don't think my reports show any loss of viscosity. And infact mention is made that it might be thicker than expected if you read it.

DH
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 04:13 AM

Didn't mean to question you OP, not in the least. My question revolves around only the PVC issue relative to PEO's as opposed to mineral or other syn for that matter. The input about esters in general having a lower PVC (and therefore being "thinner" in practice)was just causing noise on my (admittedly limited) mental channel when I tried to square it with HTHSv and other vis measures. Forgive me if I gave offense. Was not my intention.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 04:22 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Now you've got me wondering. How does HTHSv play into the discussion of pressure viscosity coefficient? Does it matter if the "bearing" surface we are talking about is rolling or fixed (say a ball or other roller bearing as opposed to a regular babbit type)? Also, I looked back ten years worth of VOA/UOA's and am hard pressed to find a Redline test that sheared to a full lower grade. In fact most often the viscosity numbers are high for a given grade in the first place and are still very close to new when the UOA is run.

I am confused. I don't mean to outright defend the stuff if indeed the PVC metric has governing merit here but this is something I have not seen before and do not know how to evaluate. If it's "thicker" oil that is needed due to clearances why not go up to 5W50 with an HTHSv of 5.0 and 100 degree vis above 20! The first question is still probably the best - How does HTHSv relate, if at all, to PVC?

I do continue to suspect blanket suppositions relative to mineral, esters, PAGs, PAOs, et al as being generically strong or weak. We all know that lubricants are highly engineered to minimize their weaknesses and are not amenable to generalized assumptions. Apologies if I am dragging this out unnecessarily but it does look like a possibility to learn something.


As the OP I welcome any input and questions.

I don't think my reports show any loss of viscosity. And infact mention is made that it might be thicker than expected if you read it.

DH


None taken. I reapeat ....... I welcome all input !!!
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 04:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Pressure - viscosity coefficient is also an important factor in oil-film thickness. I don't have this coefficient for ester base oil at hand but I suspect it is low and this maybe the reason for your high wear. I know some ester-based oils have performed ridiculously poorly in wear department.

If oil is the reason for high wear, you have all the reason to change not just the viscosity but even more importantly the brand. Don't fix something that is not broken but also don't insist that something broken will fix itself.

The culprit is likely the ester base oil. See Table 1 in the following link:

http://www.skf.com/caribbean/products/be...oils/index.html

Ester base oils have the lowest pressure - viscosity coefficient among all base oils. This translates as your ester-based Red Line is actually performing more like a 5W-20 or perhaps a 5W-10 as far as the oil-film thickness is concerned. This is because the oil-film thickness is not only proportional to the viscosity but also the pressure - viscosity coefficient.

Once again, switch to a proven mainstream oil.
Redline seems to say the opposite on their literature. Redline stirs the put worst than Amsoil stirs the pot.
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 04:39 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CT8
you will not know unless you try thicker oil. You don't need the 0W part unless you are starting up in below 0*f temps. If you want to Stay with redline try 10w-40. 15w-50 M1. Maybe 20w-50 Mobil1 motorcycle oil. You want to run the thinnest oil as not to cost you horse power yet thick enough to protect the engine when you pound on it.


Whether he needs the 0w-xx part of it or not I believe GM runs M1 0w-40 in their own Track Program Corvette's so I don't think recommending it for this application is unusual.


This is what GM puts in the european Z06 version (same engine)Try some !that is a top notch oil and the easiest was to see if the problem is the oil is to change the oil. I doubt a tear down would be worth it at this point.

DH
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 04:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Maybe I should try Mobil1 10w40. That would change the base stock and be thicker ........... ????

DH

I would probably give Mobil 1 0W-40 SN a chance. It's cheap at Walmart.

It may not be much thicker than your "5W-35ish" Red Line as far as the viscosity (cSt or cP) at low pressure (oil-pump pressure) is concerned. This also should alleviate your concerns regarding oil flow because oil flow depends on viscosity. However, its oil film may be thicker when the oil is put under hundreds of megapascals or even gigapascals of pressure in the bearings when it's squeezed because its pressure - viscosity coefficient may be higher.

The reason for this is that the viscosity that is reported [KV (cSt), HTHSV (cP), etc.] is the atmospheric-pressure viscosity. When the oil is squeezed between two moving parts, tens of gigapascals of pressure, which are hundred thousand times more than the atmospheric pressure (100 kilopascal) is produced and the viscosity increases greatly. How much it increases depends on the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) through this equation:

(viscosity under pressure) = (atmospheric-pressure viscosity) * exponential(alpha*pressure)
[exponential( ) is the exponential function and pressure is the pressure of the oil film squeezed between moving parts (not the oil-pump pressure, which is the flowing-oil pressure).]

So, more the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) is, more the viscosity under pressure and thicker the oil film under pressure is. You can also state this as more the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) is, higher the "oil-film strength" is.

See the explanation on the pressure - viscosity coefficient at this link:

Click here: Selecting oils with high pre...than four times
(Selecting oils with high pressure - viscosity coefficient -- increase bearing life by more than four times)
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
See the explanation on the pressure - viscosity coefficient at this link:

Click here: Selecting oils with high pre...than four times
(Selecting oils with high pressure - viscosity coefficient -- increase bearing life by more than four times)


Yes, I had read that earlier. I still have a question on that due to its being a test on gears/roller bearings and not on wider babbit-type bearings where perhaps the load is spread more widely (also noting the non-inclusion of POE in the test but cognizant of the other reasons you mention). Just wondering. The other question is, does the PCV value then more or less invalidate or reduce the utility of the HTHSv as a worthy unit of measure in PAO, and more specifically, in POE oils in automotive use? The input provided seems to indicate that since HTHSv is an "atmospheric" measure it is wholly without merit for our purposes.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Maybe I should try Mobil1 10w40. That would change the base stock and be thicker ........... ????

DH

I would probably give Mobil 1 0W-40 SN a chance. It's cheap at Walmart.

It may not be much thicker than your "5W-35ish" Red Line as far as the viscosity (cSt or cP) at low pressure (oil-pump pressure) is concerned. This also should alleviate your concerns regarding oil flow because oil flow depends on viscosity. However, its oil film may be thicker when the oil is put under hundreds of megapascals or even gigapascals of pressure in the bearings when it's squeezed because its pressure - viscosity coefficient may be higher.

The reason for this is that the viscosity that is reported [KV (cSt), HTHSV (cP), etc.] is the atmospheric-pressure viscosity. When the oil is squeezed between two moving parts, tens of gigapascals of pressure, which are hundred thousand times more than the atmospheric pressure (100 kilopascal) is produced and the viscosity increases greatly. How much it increases depends on the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) through this equation:

(viscosity under pressure) = (atmospheric-pressure viscosity) * exponential(alpha*pressure)
[exponential( ) is the exponential function and pressure is the pressure of the oil film squeezed between moving parts (not the oil-pump pressure, which is the flowing-oil pressure).]

So, more the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) is, more the viscosity under pressure and thicker the oil film under pressure is. You can also state this as more the pressure - viscosity coefficient (alpha) is, higher the "oil-film strength" is.

See the explanation on the pressure - viscosity coefficient at this link:

Click here: Selecting oils with high pre...than four times
(Selecting oils with high pressure - viscosity coefficient -- increase bearing life by more than four times)


I understand. Thanks again for all the explanation.

Unless I missed something I thing the consensus here would be for me to try the Mobil1 0w40, see the UAO and go from there.

DH
Posted By: spasm3

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 09:21 PM

I still wonder if there was race or aircraft fuel that accidentally got in there by the previous owner. Did he own a plane? He could have topped it off from the wrong fuel can , and never realized it.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 09:43 PM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
See the explanation on the pressure - viscosity coefficient at this link:

Click here: Selecting oils with high pre...than four times
(Selecting oils with high pressure - viscosity coefficient -- increase bearing life by more than four times)

Yes, I had read that earlier. I still have a question on that due to its being a test on gears/roller bearings and not on wider babbit-type bearings where perhaps the load is spread more widely (also noting the non-inclusion of POE in the test but cognizant of the other reasons you mention). Just wondering. The other question is, does the PCV value then more or less invalidate or reduce the utility of the HTHSv as a worthy unit of measure in PAO, and more specifically, in POE oils in automotive use? The input provided seems to indicate that since HTHSv is an "atmospheric" measure it is wholly without merit for our purposes.

Oil-film strength, which is determined by the atmospheric viscosity and pressure - viscosity coefficient (equivalently by the viscosity under pressure), is more important in the regime where you transition from hydrodynamic lubrication (thick oil film present) to boundary lubrication (metal-to-metal contact). This regime is known as elastohydrodynamic (EHD) regime. If your bearings didn't experience wear, you probably didn't have to worry about the oil-film strength, as you already have thick oil film. However, if you are experiencing bearing wear, this means that it's already in the EHD regime and you do need to worry about oil-film strength to reduce metal-to-metal contact. This PHD thesis (PDF link) says that 100 MPa pressure in the journal bearings is possible. So, this is one thousand times the atmospheric pressure and it's no longer atmospheric HTHSV, and you do need to know the pressure - viscosity coefficient. You would be experiencing even higher pressures if your bearings were wearing down, as the oil film got thinner and the surfaces became rougher.

Oil-film strength is certainly important in the valvetrain and parts of the cylinders and rings, where you are in the EHD or metal-to-metal contact regime.

It would be great if they could also specify the pressure - viscosity coefficient in addition to HTHSV, but it's something that is hard to measure.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
I understand. Thanks again for all the explanation.

Unless I missed something I thing the consensus here would be for me to try the Mobil1 0w40, see the UAO and go from there.

DH

I think that's a good first-order measure, which is neither drastic nor expensive. If it reduces wear, it's good; if it doesn't, you can look into whether you should use even thicker oil.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/26/15 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I do continue to suspect blanket suppositions relative to mineral, esters, PAGs, PAOs, et al as being generically strong or weak.

I would agree with that. Red Line is a fully formulated motor oil, with its formulation geared more towards performance applications and wear protection. If we were seeing a lot of problems with other Red Line UOAs, I wouldn't be so skeptical.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: spasm3
I still wonder if there was race or aircraft fuel that accidentally got in there by the previous owner. Did he own a plane? He could have topped it off from the wrong fuel can , and never realized it.


I have put 20K miles on it since I bought it and definitely no leaded fuel or additives !!

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 12:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I do continue to suspect blanket suppositions relative to mineral, esters, PAGs, PAOs, et al as being generically strong or weak.

I would agree with that. Red Line is a fully formulated motor oil, with its formulation geared more towards performance applications and wear protection. If we were seeing a lot of problems with other Red Line UOAs, I wouldn't be so skeptical.


So are you opposed to trying the Mobil1 0w40 and see what the results are ?

I would like to proceed in a fashion that you and Gokhan would agree upon ................ if thats possible.

DH
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 01:17 AM

I don't think anyone would argue against the use of Mobil 1 0W40 based on the VOA/UOA's we have been seeing for quite a while now and what your intended use is.
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It would be great if they could also specify the pressure - viscosity coefficient in addition to HTHSV, but it's something that is hard to measure.


Interesting input, thank you. Would this mean then that unless there is a linear or close to linear relationship between measured HTHSv and PVC that the HTHSv metric is not very useful to us in the real engine world where the bearings are always in a non-atmospheric environment? Apologies for being thick. I had come to rely on HTHSv as my "go to" for practical working viscosity and this is....destabilizing. smile
Posted By: minis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 02:20 AM

Why not just use schaefer9000 series oil
And call it a day?
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 03:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
So are you opposed to trying the Mobil1 0w40 and see what the results are ?

No, I wouldn't be opposed to that in the least. I'd just point out that it's not going to actually be thicker, with respect to operating viscosity. In any event, I would consider it a completely acceptable choice for your engine. Also, when switching up, it'll take at least an OCI or two to get UOA matters straightened out once again.

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
I would like to proceed in a fashion that you and Gokhan would agree upon ................ if thats possible.

See, it's possible. wink Now, if you want to try a bit thicker, try my Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, which will have a slightly higher HTHS. Let's see if he agrees with that. whistle
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 03:29 AM

If he wants to go with Delvac, it's OK. I ran the conventional Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 for many years. My engine is still in great condition. But since the synthetic Delvac is hard-to-find and/or expensive, I think the Mobil 1 0W-40 SN, which sells for $26.44 per five quarts at Walmart, is a simpler first-order attempt. Walmart also carries Rotella 5W-40 for only $19.57 a gallon and Mobil 1 5W-40 TDT for $26.83 a gallon if he wants to go with diesel oil. However, I don't see the advantage when there is the gasoline-engine-tuned Mobil 1 0W-40. It's arguable what all the soot dispersants in the diesel-engine oil do in gasoline engines.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 03:36 AM

Red Line 5W-30 is claimed to be an ester oil on their Web site. I've seen some dismal UOAs with the Nissan 5W-30 ester oil.

So, is the ester oil that is causing the high lead due to weak oil-film strength (small PVC) of ester base stock? You can't be sure unless you try a different oil, such as Mobil 1 0W-40.

Sure, there are a lot of good UOAs with Red Line 5W-30. But that could simply be because those engines are not demanding on oil and/or they are in excellent mechanical condition. If your engine is demanding on oil or it already has some mechanical problem, your experience will differ, and that's exactly why you should start experiencing with different oils.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 05:14 AM

Just to be clear. I am not concerned about the added cost of a premium oil. This is a $17K motor to replace if it blows up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for coming to a concensus. I will do the Mobil1 0w40 and then we can compare UAO.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/27/15 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Walmart also carries Rotella 5W-40 for only $19.57 a gallon and Mobil 1 5W-40 TDT for $26.83 a gallon if he wants to go with diesel oil.

Well, you know how wacky our pricing is up here. Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40 is the cheapest of all those up here by a significant margin. M1 0w-40 only recently became available in jugs up here, so was always an expensive option.

As for the Nissan ester oil, do recall that it's got almost no ester in it whatsoever. That was as much of a marketing gimmick as anything else. XOM suggested it was basically a Group III, if that, according to their testing.

Dirty_Howie: That sounds like a plan. Just don't get caught up in the trap of using UOAs to try to compare which is a better lubricant. That is a bit of a minefield, to say the least.
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/28/15 06:49 PM

I am troubled by this new (to me) pressure viscosity coefficient metric. If indeed it shows a weakness in ester based oils it does not square with over 20 years of continuous hard use of Redline oils in the SE-R in the signature below. As some of you know I have described its use in various competitions and hard use up to this day. 225K of 242K miles has been "ester based oil" without so much as a spun bearing or any other need to have it apart. Hard use is putting it mildly with innumerable long stints into and out of the 6-8000rpm range and it is still repeatedly redlined in the local mountains at least once per week. I would find it unlikely anybody would say it's not seen extremely hard use.

Until I see some real world example that PVC has something other than theoretical merit with esters I will remain unconvinced. It may be that PVC is a distinction without a difference. I just don't know but if it's held everything together for a couple of hundred thousand miles then something about the PVC metric regarding esters is in doubt. I do wish the OP well with this change to a known exceptional oil. I expect good results although I too worry it may be a bit thin.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/28/15 08:27 PM

When comparing base stocks, per se, it might be an issue. But, fully finished motor oils aren't completely dependent upon the properties of their base stocks.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/02/15 07:08 PM

This very interesting Chevron patent claims that GTL base stocks have a higher pressure - viscosity coefficient (PVC), which means a lot thicker oil film under pressure (a lot higher oil-film strength, which results in an a lot higher EHL [elastohydrodynamic lubrication] film), which in turn means a lot less wear. Patent also emphasizes that the effect has nothing to do with the base stock's viscosity index (VI). Note that PVC is the exponential coefficient that relates a base stock's viscosity under pressure (such as thousands of atmospheric pressure produced when squeezed between moving parts) to its atmospheric-pressure viscosity reported in the specification sheets (KV40 and KV100).

I am now considering the switch to the new generation of oil technology using GTL base stocks, currently available in Pennzoil Platinum PurePlus products.

Chevron patent: Lubricating oil with improved wear properties

Link to the thread under PCMO: Click here
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/04/15 07:57 PM

After reading the Chevron patent more, I saw that they compared GTL only with Group II. Group III, IV, and V were not included.

Since Group II is supposed to have the highest 100 C PVC, the patent's argument is that GTL's PVC falls slower with temperature than Group II's PVC and at higher temperatures, GTL actually has a higher PVC.

Since GTL is similar to Group III and IV in structure, I expect similar results for them. In short, it looks like synthetic base stocks actually have a higher high-temperature (130+ C) PVC, despite having a lower 100 C PVC, and they show higher oil-film strength and less wear than conventional at normal and severe operating conditions.

Therefore, I am not worried about the PVC of synthetic oil (including Group V esters) anymore.

I still recommend Mobil 1 0W-40 SN in your case as a first-order attempt to decrease wear. You can use thicker oil if that doesn't work.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/05/15 01:29 AM

Thanks for all the research efforts.

I currently have 3K since my last oil change.

I will be trying the Mobil1 0w40

I will do Blackstone again on this current fill of Redline and update this thread with those results.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/29/15 04:15 AM

Changing oil this weekend with Mobil1 0w40.

Will see if you guys know what the [censored] you are talking about soon enough .........

DH
Posted By: miami993

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/29/15 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Changing oil this weekend with Mobil1 0w40.

Will see if you guys know what the [censored] you are talking about soon enough .........

DH


Hi DH,
Do not omit to send a sample for analysis...
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/29/15 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Changing oil this weekend with Mobil1 0w40.

Will see if you guys know what the [censored] you are talking about soon enough .........

DH


Hi DH,
Do not omit to send a sample for analysis...


Of course not. Will get Blackstone for current Redline fill and then the Mobil1 in 3-4K miles.

And will report back here.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/01/15 12:24 AM

Got the Mobil1 0w40 in today. Oil pressure seemed to be the same as the Redline 5w30 hot. Will need to see pressure and how it sounds when cold tomorrow morning.

Blackstone will be mailed monday.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/14/15 12:19 AM

Here is my recent UOA. It is still with the Redline 5w30. Car runs great and sounds very quiet. And Oil pressure continues to be very good....better than my previous 2 LS7 motors.

Will get the Mobil 0w40 UAO soon as I get at least 3K miles on it.

Posted By: miami993

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/15/15 02:10 PM

Is there Antimony in the RL 5W30 anti wear package?
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/15/15 04:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Just to be clear. I am not concerned about the added cost of a premium oil. This is a $17K motor to replace if it blows up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for coming to a concensus. I will do the Mobil1 0w40 and then we can compare UAO.

DH
Oil is the cheapest diagnostic thing you can do. It seems Redline oil works great or it doesn't . I thought Redline was the end all to be all oil but over the years it seems not to be.I only use the MTL and D4 with good results.This is really a stupid statement but years ago when I would go to the boat drags, the top fuel engines running Redline didn't look any better on the rebuild between matches that the engines using other oils. But then The life of the engine is maybe a minute or two.
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/15/15 06:33 PM

I think you may have to go at least a couple of OCI's to be certain that you're seeing only results of the M1. You have been very consistent with your short mileage changes. I do wonder if there will still be a variable with the "too frequent" change issue where some feel there is a washing-off and replacement issue with regard to the AW components. It jives with some old Ford test data if I recall but that's fuzzy memory on my part. I have no worry whatsoever that the M1 0-40 will do anything but fine in your use. But I'm just old school enough to have wanted you to go heavier (~4.5+ HTHSv - I obviously don't fear "high" oil pressure) in this case but we'll see. Good luck, I wish it was my problem (having your Corvette I mean...).
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/15/15 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Just to be clear. I am not concerned about the added cost of a premium oil. This is a $17K motor to replace if it blows up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for coming to a concensus. I will do the Mobil1 0w40 and then we can compare UAO.

DH
Oil is the cheapest diagnostic thing you can do. It seems Redline oil works great or it doesn't . I thought Redline was the end all to be all oil but over the years it seems not to be.I only use the MTL and D4 with good results.This is really a stupid statement but years ago when I would go to the boat drags, the top fuel engines running Redline didn't look any better on the rebuild between matches that the engines using other oils. But then The life of the engine is maybe a minute or two.


I was only going by online enthusiasm for RL. I am not married to it and will be very happy if Mobil 0w40 works as good or better.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/15/15 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I think you may have to go at least a couple of OCI's to be certain that you're seeing only results of the M1. You have been very consistent with your short mileage changes. I do wonder if there will still be a variable with the "too frequent" change issue where some feel there is a washing-off and replacement issue with regard to the AW components. It jives with some old Ford test data if I recall but that's fuzzy memory on my part. I have no worry whatsoever that the M1 0-40 will do anything but fine in your use. But I'm just old school enough to have wanted you to go heavier (~4.5+ HTHSv - I obviously don't fear "high" oil pressure) in this case but we'll see. Good luck, I wish it was my problem (having your Corvette I mean...).


Well I am likely to keep the OCI the same, especially for comparative purposes. I am sure there will be some discussion of running the Mobil for more than one OCI based on what ever the results are.

Have about 500 on the Mobil and motor seems a little quiter .....

DH
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/16/15 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Just to be clear. I am not concerned about the added cost of a premium oil. This is a $17K motor to replace if it blows up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for coming to a concensus. I will do the Mobil1 0w40 and then we can compare UAO.

DH
Oil is the cheapest diagnostic thing you can do. It seems Redline oil works great or it doesn't . I thought Redline was the end all to be all oil but over the years it seems not to be.I only use the MTL and D4 with good results.This is really a stupid statement but years ago when I would go to the boat drags, the top fuel engines running Redline didn't look any better on the rebuild between matches that the engines using other oils. But then The life of the engine is maybe a minute or two.


I was only going by online enthusiasm for RL. I am not married to it and will be very happy if Mobil 0w40 works as good or better.

DH


(Im just kidding around when I say this)

Well sort of kidding ... !
Red Line =... High price, marketing.
I swear, whenever I see bad oil reports I feel like it is always the "magic" expensive oils that do nothing more then marketing ... its never the dirt cheap stuff with no marketing or just plain Jane brand name stuff like Valvoline, always the exotic stuff.
No name dirt cheap stuff always surprises everyone, why? Its all just oil. Nothing will magically defy the laws of physics.

Expensive oils make people think they are doing what is best for their car, yet there is nothing about the expensive oil that is magical. Im almost willing to bet Super Tech oil would have performed better in your case.

Anyway, just this early mornings rant *L*
Posted By: camrydriver111

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/16/15 07:47 PM

I'm curious about the results, but my prediction is M1 0W40 will give the exact same numbers.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 11/26/15 10:37 PM

Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
I'm curious about the results, but my prediction is M1 0W40 will give the exact same numbers.


Obviously, I too am going to be very curious to see what changes occur if any. If results are same or better I will be sticking with the Mobil if not I may try Redline 0w40.

DH

Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/16/15 05:01 AM

Haven't forgot about this. So far I have 1500 miles and one AutoCross event. Doing another AutoCross this weekend.

DH
Posted By: JSRT4

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/20/15 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I am troubled by this new (to me) pressure viscosity coefficient metric. If indeed it shows a weakness in ester based oils it does not square with over 20 years of continuous hard use of Redline oils in the SE-R in the signature below. As some of you know I have described its use in various competitions and hard use up to this day. 225K of 242K miles has been "ester based oil" without so much as a spun bearing or any other need to have it apart. Hard use is putting it mildly with innumerable long stints into and out of the 6-8000rpm range and it is still repeatedly redlined in the local mountains at least once per week. I would find it unlikely anybody would say it's not seen extremely hard use.

Until I see some real world example that PVC has something other than theoretical merit with esters I will remain unconvinced. It may be that PVC is a distinction without a difference. I just don't know but if it's held everything together for a couple of hundred thousand miles then something about the PVC metric regarding esters is in doubt. I do wish the OP well with this change to a known exceptional oil. I expect good results although I too worry it may be a bit thin.


Your real world experience is more important to me than some pvc test. If pvc was everything to a motor oil everyone would be adding Prolong to olive oil and we'd call it a day, lol.

I ran Red Line 5w30 on a recent trip to the Dragon in NC in my Honda S2000. We drove many days in high-g & high rpm corners, it was probably the hardest driving I've ever put my car through. When I compared that UOA sample to a typical easy street- driving OCI I've done in the past the wear numbers were very comparable. I think Red Line shines in hard driving environments, it's not going to save you from mechanical engine issues if your engine is destined to self-destruct though. I've been quite pleased with it, the cost of the oil isn't a concern to me as I only do one oil change a year on this car.
Posted By: DeepFriar

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/23/15 10:20 PM

Deal's Gap is only about a hundred miles from my home so I go up there 2-3 times a year after calling to be sure it's not too busy. Plenty of other good roads in that area as well. Definitely a fun workout! Must be great fun indeed in an S2000.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/27/15 07:49 AM

2,000 miles now ........

DH
Posted By: JSRT4

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/29/15 02:41 AM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Deal's Gap is only about a hundred miles from my home so I go up there 2-3 times a year after calling to be sure it's not too busy. Plenty of other good roads in that area as well. Definitely a fun workout! Must be great fun indeed in an S2000.


I loved the entire region. The Dragon is the main draw but I found other roads that I liked even better. You can only take so many 180 degree switchbacks, lol. It wasn't very busy there in April so we could hit the roads at a pretty good clip.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 01/24/16 03:44 AM

Getting oil changed in 4 weeks ........

Will be interested to see results. Car is being driven less. Sitting for days without starting where as it used to be driven every day. Lots of shorter drives with oil not getting up to temp due to cold weather. More AutoX than previous OCI.

DH
Posted By: Geoff

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 01/27/16 04:24 AM

I have typically single digit bearing wear metals with my LS3/Camaro. Last was 1 ppm for lead/tin and 6 ppm for aluminum) after 4K OCIs with at least two track days in there. My recommendations:

- Dexos2 is factory fill for the LS3 in Europe where oil temps are more often higher. This means ACEA c3 and usually xw-40. I use Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w-30/C3 (not platinum or US Ultra).
- Also, not saying you do, but don't lug the motor at 1100 rpm..which loads up the bearings.
- Let the engine warm to 110 deg F before driving off and keep the revs down until operating temp. The oil bypass is 50 psi and thick cold oil will get dumped back in the pan.
- Correct air filtration makes a big difference. Watch out for after market CAI's. Silicon should be less than 10 ppm. This may be your issue.
- While GF5 5w-30 is too thin for anything but commuting, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence on the web that 15w50 is too thick, even for track use. Some high bearing wear on www.camaro5.com and spun bearings on corvette forums.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 01/27/16 05:16 AM

Thanks for your input.

I always let the car warm for at least 5 minutes on cold starts. I assume you mean 115* coolant as oil temp does not get up to 115* until car is driven for several minutes due to the large oil cooler. Revs never go over 3K until oil temp reaches 150*. Good advise on the lugging, I know this and try to keep revs near 2K. On the freeway I don't upshift to 6th unless I'm going over 70mph. I have the stock air intake and recently put in a brand new filter.

DH
Posted By: Shannow

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 01/27/16 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
This very interesting Chevron patent claims that GTL base stocks have a higher pressure - viscosity coefficient (PVC), which means a lot thicker oil film under pressure (a lot higher oil-film strength, which results in an a lot higher EHL [elastohydrodynamic lubrication] film), which in turn means a lot less wear. Patent also emphasizes that the effect has nothing to do with the base stock's viscosity index (VI). Note that PVC is the exponential coefficient that relates a base stock's viscosity under pressure (such as thousands of atmospheric pressure produced when squeezed between moving parts) to its atmospheric-pressure viscosity reported in the specification sheets (KV40 and KV100).

I am now considering the switch to the new generation of oil technology using GTL base stocks, currently available in Pennzoil Platinum PurePlus products.

Chevron patent: Lubricating oil with improved wear properties

Link to the thread under PCMO: Click here


That patent is about cams and roller bearings...not lead from (presumably engine bearings).

As per previous discussion, I seriously doubt that the average (particularly white metal based) can withstand enough surface pressure for the PVC to factor into it.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/13/16 04:40 AM

Sorry this is taking so long. I have my oil change scheduled for next Saturday. Should barely have 3K miles on the OCI.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/20/16 09:34 PM

Oil is being changed today.
Will send to Blackstone on Monday morning.
I usually get report in a week or so.
Will post report the soon as its emailed to me.

DH
Posted By: jdavis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/21/16 02:39 AM

Looking forward to it!!
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/21/16 02:52 AM

Me too!
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/03/16 02:55 PM

I emailed the last tech at Blackstone who I conversed with regarding questions I had regarding metal contents and possible sources. She told me my sample is up for analysis today and report should be available this afternoon. I will post the report and any information she emails me in regards to it as soon as it arrives.

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/03/16 07:51 PM

Dirty_Howie , I am waiting !!! cry
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 03:12 AM

Well finally here is my latest UAO switching from Redline 5w30 to Mobil1 0w40. There is a little less milage but not significant in my opinion as most metals are constant with previous samples except for the LEAD. I had more AutoX time.

Congradulations to those members who predicted the results. Hopefully many will comment again and decipher the results. Unless convinced otherwise I will be staying with the Mobil1.

Here is an email I recieved from Blackstone this morning after my inquiry and before report was received. Please note and comment on the thought that bearing might be ready to fail. Also not sure why Blackstone's comments on the report say they have "no idea" when I specifically spelled out that I switched oils.

I just had a chance to look at the data from your report today. I think
you'll be pleased. Most metals are steady, but lead has come down quite a
bit. (By half, actually, and that's quite an improvement.) I will say that
if suddenly metals start to look better for no apparent reason, maybe --
maybe -- the bearings are wearing out, as you had asked about in the past.
But assuming you're still getting good oil pressure, not hearing any noises
or anything like that, I would say it's kind of premature to start talking
about that. I just know it had been a question of yours in the past, so I
wanted to mention it.

You can see the slight change in additives in your latest report (the
report still needs to be proofread, so it'll be sent out after that's
done). This oil has less molybdenum, more boron and calcium. The viscosity
was within the expected range, so that's a nice improvement, though I don't
necessarily think the readings being off in the past were of any
consequence. I doubt the change in oils would be to thank for the
improvement in wear, but if you want to test the idea, switch back to
Redline and see if wear goes back up. (That's a common question we get when
wear improves following an oil brand change, so I thought I'd head off any
questions in that department.)

Anyway, you should have your report within a few hours. Let me know if you
think of questions!




DH
Posted By: bigt61

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 03:36 PM

Wow - that's impressive. Quite a difference with just a simple change of oil type. It will be interesting to see if the trend continues, or even improves with the next OCI. 2 thumbs up.
Posted By: demarpaint

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 03:42 PM

It looks like Mobil 1 is a better choice than the RL product you were using.
Posted By: racin4ds

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 03:46 PM

If this LS7 is still under warranty I'd be using whatever junk GM suggests and when it pops just have it replaced! This certainly isn't the first LSx motor that we've heard of having issues so I wouldn't be surprised.

Once you get your new engine, which hopefully has all of the "updates" done to it, stick with a good, "non-botique" oil and if you are going to track it, always go at least 1 grade thicker on oil. CAFE owns american car companies, especially GM so using "water" in a 500+hp big block isn't exactly what I'd call correct...
Posted By: 440Magnum

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: HKPolice

I'd crack open the valve covers and take a look. If the cams look fine then main bearings = huge PITA.



Ummm.... the cam isn't under the valve covers on an LS-x engine... :-p

The LS-7 is a fairly oddball engine- the rod and crank bearings are titanium coated (though maybe not if these or originals to a 2006 engine, that may have come along later as a result of its tendency to eat bearings). Oiling is dry-sump, and the stroke is so long that the cylinder liners extend into the crankcase below the block casting material to allow the piston to reach BDC... in short its not exactly a recipe for a long-lived engine even when everything works perfectly. I suspect that's one reason that the supercharged 6.3 has completely supplanted it now.

As long as its running well, I'd probably just continue to track the wear and enjoy it. I mean what's the alternative, tear it down just because lead's a little high in an oil analysis? Try another oil when you're already using one of the best possible high-performance oils? I mean, the latter wouldn't hurt anything, maybe it would respond well to a more conventional formula than it does to ester-based Redline, but its not likely. Bottom line for me would be that its not something like a money-earning truck engine where downtime is unacceptable so its. IF it fails, then pay for the overhaul at that time and not as a preventative measure that might not even be needed. JMHO.

<edit> I just saw the report with M1 at the end of this thread... and I'm rather impressed. And of course this is only going to fuel the (already widespread) belief that M1 0w40 is magical juice... Or maybe all the lead's just gone from the bearings now... :-p

At any rate, no need to tear it down unless something goes bang.

Posted By: Kuato

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Well finally here is my latest UAO switching from Redline 5w30 to Mobil1 0w40. There is a little less milage but not significant in my opinion as most metals are constant with previous samples except for the LEAD. I had more AutoX time.

Congradulations to those members who predicted the results. Hopefully many will comment again and decipher the results. Unless convinced otherwise I will be staying with the Mobil1.

Here is an email I recieved from Blackstone this morning after my inquiry and before report was received. Please note and comment on the thought that bearing might be ready to fail. Also not sure why Blackstone's comments on the report say they have "no idea" when I specifically spelled out that I switched oils.

I just had a chance to look at the data from your report today. I think
you'll be pleased. Most metals are steady, but lead has come down quite a
bit. (By half, actually, and that's quite an improvement.) I will say that
if suddenly metals start to look better for no apparent reason, maybe --
maybe -- the bearings are wearing out, as you had asked about in the past.
But assuming you're still getting good oil pressure, not hearing any noises
or anything like that, I would say it's kind of premature to start talking
about that. I just know it had been a question of yours in the past, so I
wanted to mention it.

You can see the slight change in additives in your latest report (the
report still needs to be proofread, so it'll be sent out after that's
done). This oil has less molybdenum, more boron and calcium. The viscosity
was within the expected range, so that's a nice improvement, though I don't
necessarily think the readings being off in the past were of any
consequence. I doubt the change in oils would be to thank for the
improvement in wear, but if you want to test the idea, switch back to
Redline and see if wear goes back up. (That's a common question we get when
wear improves following an oil brand change, so I thought I'd head off any
questions in that department.)

Anyway, you should have your report within a few hours. Let me know if you
think of questions!




DH


So this begs the question: is it the M1, or the thicker oil? I'd be inclined to have a run with the 0w40 Red Line; but it's your oil and perhaps "leave well enough alone" works in this case.
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 08:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Well finally here is my latest UAO switching from Redline 5w30 to Mobil1 0w40. There is a little less milage but not significant in my opinion as most metals are constant with previous samples except for the LEAD. I had more AutoX time.

Congradulations to those members who predicted the results. Hopefully many will comment again and decipher the results. Unless convinced otherwise I will be staying with the Mobil1.

Here is an email I recieved from Blackstone this morning after my inquiry and before report was received. Please note and comment on the thought that bearing might be ready to fail. Also not sure why Blackstone's comments on the report say they have "no idea" when I specifically spelled out that I switched oils.

I just had a chance to look at the data from your report today. I think
you'll be pleased. Most metals are steady, but lead has come down quite a
bit. (By half, actually, and that's quite an improvement.) I will say that
if suddenly metals start to look better for no apparent reason, maybe --
maybe -- the bearings are wearing out, as you had asked about in the past.
But assuming you're still getting good oil pressure, not hearing any noises
or anything like that, I would say it's kind of premature to start talking
about that. I just know it had been a question of yours in the past, so I
wanted to mention it.

You can see the slight change in additives in your latest report (the
report still needs to be proofread, so it'll be sent out after that's
done). This oil has less molybdenum, more boron and calcium. The viscosity
was within the expected range, so that's a nice improvement, though I don't
necessarily think the readings being off in the past were of any
consequence. I doubt the change in oils would be to thank for the
improvement in wear, but if you want to test the idea, switch back to
Redline and see if wear goes back up. (That's a common question we get when
wear improves following an oil brand change, so I thought I'd head off any
questions in that department.)

Anyway, you should have your report within a few hours. Let me know if you
think of questions!




DH


So this begs the question: is it the M1, or the thicker oil? I'd be inclined to have a run with the 0w40 Red Line; but it's your oil and perhaps "leave well enough alone" works in this case.
Or a 10w-40 the smaller the viscosity spread the better probably still stands under the harshest load conditions but then I could be wrong.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 09:07 PM

Just wanted to mention in response to the Balckstone email. My oil pressure has not changed at all in the 23k miles I have put on the car and the motor sound exactly the same as well.

I doubt that I would try a thicker oil as I aready have to baby it for 10 minutes until oil heats up other wise pressure will exceed 80psi even at 2500-3000rpm. But that was the case as well with the Redline5w30.

DH
Posted By: 440Magnum

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 09:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Just wanted to mention in response to the Balckstone email. My oil pressure has not changed at all in the 23k miles I have put on the car and the motor sound exactly the same as well.

I doubt that I would try a thicker oil as I aready have to baby it for 10 minutes until oil heats up other wise pressure will exceed 80psi even at 2500-3000rpm. But that was the case as well with the Redline5w30.

DH


Its good to let the fluids warm up, but 80 PSI cold seems perfectly reasonable especially with a modern engine using a crank-driven oil pump instead of an old-school 90-degree helical gear drive off the cam. I see as much as 100 PSI cold on my 08 Ram (on 5w20!) and 90 on my '66 and '69 440s on 0w40.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 09:36 PM

I think subsequent trending on this oil will probably see the lead decline further. Keep us updated smile
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 10:39 PM

I like letting things get warm and toasty before working the motor hard.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 10:41 PM

That would be nice ............. glad I switched back to the Mobil 0w40. Great advise I received here.

DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/04/16 11:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
That would be nice ............. glad I switched back to the Mobil 0w40. Great advise I received here.

DH


thumbsup
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/06/16 11:17 AM

I was looking forward to this UOA update! I was expecting you would see an improvement.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/06/16 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
I was looking forward to this UOA update! I was expecting you would see an improvement.


Yes, many predicted this. Surpized more aren't in here bragging ... hahahaa!!

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/24/16 01:01 AM

Soon you will feel the pressure and anxiety build for the next UOA. At least I am waiting !
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/24/16 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By: CT8
Soon you will feel the pressure and anxiety build for the next UOA. At least I am waiting !


No pressure or anxiety.....will do the next OC at same approx 3K mile interval.

Care to make any predictions?

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/27/16 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: CT8
Soon you will feel the pressure and anxiety build for the next UOA. At least I am waiting !


No pressure or anxiety.....will do the next OC at same approx 3K mile interval.

Care to make any predictions?

DH
Heck no! what if I am wrong? I am enjoying the results of the posts. Have you thought of running Redline 10w-40 oil to see if the lead kicks up due to the Redline oils chemistry or the viscosity?
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/29/16 03:37 AM

Haha ........

Heck no! what if I lead goes up? I am enjoying the results of the Mobil 0w40 !!!!

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/29/16 03:46 AM

The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.
Posted By: miami993

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/29/16 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.


Christian
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/30/16 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.


Christian


Huh ????
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/30/16 05:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.


Christian


Huh ????
+1
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/11/16 03:48 AM

Waiting for latest UAO from Blackstone. Should be here in a couple of days. Stay tuned ......

DH
Posted By: Jetronic

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/11/16 07:24 AM

Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I am troubled by this new (to me) pressure viscosity coefficient metric. If indeed it shows a weakness in ester based oils it does not square with over 20 years of continuous hard use of Redline oils in the SE-R in the signature below. As some of you know I have described its use in various competitions and hard use up to this day. 225K of 242K miles has been "ester based oil" without so much as a spun bearing or any other need to have it apart. Hard use is putting it mildly with innumerable long stints into and out of the 6-8000rpm range and it is still repeatedly redlined in the local mountains at least once per week. I would find it unlikely anybody would say it's not seen extremely hard use.

Until I see some real world example that PVC has something other than theoretical merit with esters I will remain unconvinced. It may be that PVC is a distinction without a difference. I just don't know but if it's held everything together for a couple of hundred thousand miles then something about the PVC metric regarding esters is in doubt. I do wish the OP well with this change to a known exceptional oil. I expect good results although I too worry it may be a bit thin.



http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/586/viscosity-coefficient-bearing

Practical Guidance for Selecting Lubricant
(as demonstrated by Figure 3):

- PAG oils have significantly thicker films than PAO and mineral oils over the entire range of practical temperature.
- There is little difference between PAO and mineral oils for the temperature range of 70C to 90C. In this same temperature range, PAG lubricant gives 16 percent to 37 percent thicker films than mineral oil.
- For temperatures less than 70C, mineral and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than PAO oils.
- For temperatures greater than 90C, PAO and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than mineral oils.

It would only be an issue under 70C. and at those temperatures, the oil is thicker than it needs to be anyway. Remember that the bearings are running hotter than the bulk oil temperature, so if the bilk oil reaches 50C, the oil in the bearings will easily go over 70C already.

I'm not so sure about a very high pressure/viscosity constant in slide bearings. I'd be concerned about bearing fatigue if you run in the EHL regime a lot. for roller cams and rocker bearings it's a good thing.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/19/16 04:25 AM

Well here is my latest Blackstone report. Obviously I am very happy with it. My lead levels are now completely normal.

Again, many thanks to those who helped convince me to use Mobil1 0w40. I think its pretty clear that at least for my car it is the better oil.

A few points and questions:
1. The car spent more time on the freeway during its daily driver duty than last time.
2. I ran a few more AutoX events than last time.
3. I did add 1/4 qt of oil for the first time. Does Blackstone compensate for this in the listed metal ppm?
4. Why is Phosphorus and Zink lower. Could it be that its coating bearing and other surface?



DH
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/19/16 06:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/586/viscosity-coefficient-bearing
Practical Guidance for Selecting Lubricant
(as demonstrated by Figure 3):

- PAG oils have significantly thicker films than PAO and mineral oils over the entire range of practical temperature.
- There is little difference between PAO and mineral oils for the temperature range of 70C to 90C. In this same temperature range, PAG lubricant gives 16 percent to 37 percent thicker films than mineral oil.
- For temperatures less than 70C, mineral and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than PAO oils.
- For temperatures greater than 90C, PAO and PAG oils have significantly greater film thickness than mineral oils.

It would only be an issue under 70C. and at those temperatures, the oil is thicker than it needs to be anyway. Remember that the bearings are running hotter than the bulk oil temperature, so if the bilk oil reaches 50C, the oil in the bearings will easily go over 70C already.

I'm not so sure about a very high pressure/viscosity constant in slide bearings. I'd be concerned about bearing fatigue if you run in the EHL regime a lot. for roller cams and rocker bearings it's a good thing.

Pressure Viscosity Coefficients of Minerals is much higher than PAO and PAG (by 2 times) through out the whole temperature range, though ester's not indicated here. blush
Posted By: Jetronic

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/19/16 06:37 PM

That's not what I've found. I've found about 30% more for mineral oils compared to PAO. but presuure viscosity coefficient is pointless if you don't know the viscosity of the oil going into that bearing
if the oil viscosity is double, then it doesn't matterthe pressure viscosity coefficient is only half. That's what machinery lubrication is getting at with those temperature ranges.
Posted By: Doublehaul

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/22/16 03:07 AM

Congrats on the great report! Glad to hear things have settled down and are trending in the right direction
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/23/16 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Doublehaul
Congrats on the great report! Glad to hear things have settled down and are trending in the right direction


Thanks. I have 3K miles already since last fill. My next OCI will be Sept 16 so will likely have 4K miles then. Obviously, I will update this thread with that Blackstone report.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/17/16 04:49 AM

Oil changed today at 4247 miles. Will send to Blackstone tomorrow and upload report soon as I receive it.

DH
Posted By: jdavis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/20/16 12:42 PM

Looking forward to it
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/30/16 02:44 AM

Okay, here is my Blackstone report I received today.

I'm happy. It seems to get better every report.

Anyone see any issues?



DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/30/16 03:14 AM

Here is my latest report.

Very happy!



DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/30/16 03:54 AM

Looks great!!
Posted By: PeterPolyol

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/03/16 01:45 AM

There's something about Redline and bringing out the lead. I'd be more apt to suspect some type of chelation rather than accelerated wear, in line with CT8s suggestion. No matter, seems a switch of chemistry has eliminated it.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/03/16 04:30 AM

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
There's something about Redline and bringing out the lead. I'd be more apt to suspect some type of chelation rather than accelerated wear, in line with CT8s suggestion. No matter, seems a switch of chemistry has eliminated it.


Ya, I have no idea what the underlying reason (chemistry/physics) might be but I'm sure of the results and will just keep using the Mobil1 0w40 now.
Posted By: bigt61

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/03/16 01:27 PM

All trends look good. I'm using the M1 0W-40 in my BB Suburban now and I expect it to do a 5 year, low mileage OCI effortlessly. Thanks for posting all your reports.
Posted By: jdavis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/05/16 01:52 AM

Is the latest report the older Mobil 1 0w-40 or the newest Mobil 1 0w-40 FS?
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/05/16 04:53 AM

Originally Posted By: jdavis
Is the latest report the older Mobil 1 0w-40 or the newest Mobil 1 0w-40 FS?


Sorry I should have updated this and made it clear. The first 3 reports with the high Lead levels are with the RedLine 5w30. The last 3 reports with the improved Lead levels are with the Mobil1 0w40.

Does that answer your question?



DH
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/05/16 09:45 AM

Howie, Mobil changed their 0w40 to a new formula. He was asking if you know which version you had. You would need to have the jug to know.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/05/16 01:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Howie, Mobil changed their 0w40 to a new formula. He was asking if you know which version you had. You would need to have the jug to know.


Okay. Sorry I misinterpreted the question.

I actually do have the jug which I recently bought a couple of months ago at AutoZone.

So how do I tell ?

DH
Posted By: jdavis

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/06/16 12:24 AM

Here is the newest bottle

You'll notice the "FS" on the bottle and no BMW anymore..

Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/06/16 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By: jdavis
Here is the newest bottle

You'll notice the "FS" on the bottle and no BMW anymore..



So I have a partially used 5 gal jug just like above that has the "FS". So thats what I put in at this latest OCI. However, I also have a partly used 1 gal bottle that does not have the "FS". So all or some of the reports you see in my Blackstone had the "non-FS". I got all my oil from O'reilly or AutoZone so when ever this "FS" hit the market I assume I was using it from fresh store stocks.

When did this stuff come out?
I would never have noticed this if not brought to my attention here.

Now I have to worry that I have been using the old formula and only now have the FS in my motor and my results will turn to [censored] on next Blackstone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is different in the new formula ????? Can it be determined from my additives in my report????

DH
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/06/16 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: jdavis
Here is the newest bottle

You'll notice the "FS" on the bottle and no BMW anymore..



So I have a partially used 5 gal jug just like above that has the "FS". So thats what I put in at this latest OCI. However, I also have a partly used 1 gal bottle that does not have the "FS". So all or some of the reports you see in my Blackstone had the "non-FS". I got all my oil from O'reilly or AutoZone so when ever this "FS" hit the market I assume I was using it from fresh store stocks.

When did this stuff come out?
I would never have noticed this if not brought to my attention here.

Now I have to worry that I have been using the old formula and only now have the FS in my motor and my results will turn to [censored] on next Blackstone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is different in the new formula ????? Can it be determined from my additives in my report????

DH



Here is a long thread about it https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4015494/New_Mobil_1_FS_0w-40

I run this oil too, everything I've read, it should be just as good or better for our LS engines. You will find out soon though, everyone will be excited to get a comparison.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 10/08/16 12:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: jdavis
Here is the newest bottle

You'll notice the "FS" on the bottle and no BMW anymore..



So I have a partially used 5 gal jug just like above that has the "FS". So thats what I put in at this latest OCI. However, I also have a partly used 1 gal bottle that does not have the "FS". So all or some of the reports you see in my Blackstone had the "non-FS". I got all my oil from O'reilly or AutoZone so when ever this "FS" hit the market I assume I was using it from fresh store stocks.

When did this stuff come out?
I would never have noticed this if not brought to my attention here.

Now I have to worry that I have been using the old formula and only now have the FS in my motor and my results will turn to [censored] on next Blackstone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is different in the new formula ????? Can it be determined from my additives in my report????

DH



Here is a long thread about it https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4015494/New_Mobil_1_FS_0w-40

I run this oil too, everything I've read, it should be just as good or better for our LS engines. You will find out soon though, everyone will be excited to get a comparison.


Well read some of that. Its mostly over my head. I see that the FS came out in Feb. Wish I had known about this then so I could have documented if I was using the old formulation or not. I'm hoping Mobil knows what they are doing and that the FS will work as good or better. But definitely I have the FS in there now.

DH
Posted By: UltrafanUK

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 10/08/16 08:12 AM

Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Lead at 39ppm is not high.
When you get above 50 ppm then monitor. Above 100ppm indicates there MAY be a problem.
The same for Iron.


Twaddle, there is no real defined limit for Lead as it depends on the engine type, so the best thing is to compare it with the universal average figure. For most car engines that will be below 10 ppm.

The UOA seems to show high main bearing wear and I would be inclined to try a thicker oil to see if that helps. Magnesium compounds are used as an alternative to Calcium ones as a detergent additive, so that figure is not of real interest.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Check UOA on my Corvette: High Lead - 10/08/16 09:51 PM

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: LubeLuke
Lead at 39ppm is not high.
When you get above 50 ppm then monitor. Above 100ppm indicates there MAY be a problem.
The same for Iron.


Twaddle, there is no real defined limit for Lead as it depends on the engine type, so the best thing is to compare it with the universal average figure. For most car engines that will be below 10 ppm.

The UOA seems to show high main bearing wear and I would be inclined to try a thicker oil to see if that helps. Magnesium compounds are used as an alternative to Calcium ones as a detergent additive, so that figure is not of real interest.


Not sure if you read most of this thread or viewed my latest UOA. But I followed the advise of many members here and switched from Redline 5/30 to Mobil1 0/40. The soon as I did that my lead levels dropped and have continued to drop to actually slightly below the averages for lead.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/03/16 04:11 AM

I see this topic keeps getting a lot of hits so I thought I would just give an update. I only have 2K miles on last oil change as I have been using my daughters car for a lot of daily driving while she was away at school. She will shortly return and I will then quickly get another 1K miles on and do another oil change. And of course I will post up the Blackstone at that time.

DH
Posted By: RedVic

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/04/16 12:03 PM

I did not read the 14 pages but you changed from a 5w-30 to a 0w-40, would the Redline have also lowered the lead levels if you had went with their 0w-40 oil?

I hope you are using those lab reports to bash Redline because I have always had great results using Redline oils.
Posted By: RedVic

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/04/16 12:23 PM

I hope you are NOT using those lab reports to bash Redline because I have always had great results using Redline oils.

Don't get so hung up on oil reports, millions upon millions of people never get a oil report and never have a problem.

I am not convinced Blackstone even understands their own lab reports because I have seen so much contradicting information in them with two different reports on the the same oil.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/04/16 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: RedVic
I hope you are NOT using those lab reports to bash Redline because I have always had great results using Redline oils.

Don't get so hung up on oil reports, millions upon millions of people never get a oil report and never have a problem.

I am not convinced Blackstone even understands their own lab reports because I have seen so much contradicting information in them with two different reports on the the same oil.


Well my intention of this posting was not to bash anybody. Maybe you should read the 14 pages. I had worrisome lead levels and asked for advice here. I followed the advise of the clear majority and got a great documented and empirical result.

DH
Posted By: 4WD

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/04/16 09:27 PM

Gives rise to the question - how often is the same specimen oil sent to two UOA labs ....?
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/11/17 11:30 PM

Just did oil change and boxed up sample for Blackstone. Will be shipping on monday and posting results for those still interested. Been driving the beater a lot so took a while to get the 3K miles. There are 5 AutoX days on this OCI.

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/12/17 12:35 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Just did oil change and boxed up sample for Blackstone. Will be shipping on monday and posting results for those still interested. Been driving the beater a lot so took a while to get the 3K miles. There are 5 AutoX days on this OCI.

DH
I am waiting !!!
Posted By: Onug

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/13/17 03:32 AM

DH - I just want to say I really enjoyed running through this post today. Great to see a long run of a couple of oils and some good side-by-side comparisions. Thanks for taking the time and money to keep it going.

I was considering Red Line oil when I switch after a few runs with M1 (I'm also running a long-term comparison), but now I think I'll go with Schaeffers first.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/13/17 06:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Onug
DH - I just want to say I really enjoyed running through this post today. Great to see a long run of a couple of oils and some good side-by-side comparisions. Thanks for taking the time and money to keep it going.

I was considering Red Line oil when I switch after a few runs with M1 (I'm also running a long-term comparison), but now I think I'll go with Schaeffers first.


You are welcome buts its not really a big deal. I just hope this report is as good as the last one.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/25/17 10:20 PM

Maybe Blackstone is busy but i got worried and called them yesterday. My report will be ready on Tuesday and I will post it the soon as it shows in my email box.

DH
Posted By: MolaKule

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/26/17 05:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: chrly919
What's wrong with using what GM specs; Mobil 1 5W30?


In the land of BiTOG, where every single PPM matters, other oils have consistently shown lower wear numbers in GM small-blocks. Red Line is not one of those, however.



Reline has been known to scour lead from engine nooks and crannies that were not cleaned and dispersed by previous oils.

I would do one more OCI with the 5W30. If lead doesn't go down, go up to 10W30 as suggested by others, as you may need a thicker oil film for this engine.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/27/17 12:28 AM

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: chrly919
What's wrong with using what GM specs; Mobil 1 5W30?


In the land of BiTOG, where every single PPM matters, other oils have consistently shown lower wear numbers in GM small-blocks. Red Line is not one of those, however.



Reline has been known to scour lead from engine nooks and crannies that were not cleaned and dispersed by previous oils.

I would do one more OCI with the 5W30. If lead doesn't go down, go up to 10W30 as suggested by others, as you may need a thicker oil film for this engine.



Thanks for your input and you might be right. But as long as my reports come back good or even trending better I will be sticking with Mobil 0w40.

Lets see what the report shows on Tuesday. Let me know what you think.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/28/17 04:38 AM

Okay here is the latest report. I can't believe that the lead dropped so much again. A year ago I was worried about bearings going out and now my motor seems be functioning excellently with good oil pressure too. It would be very hard to convince me at this point to change to a different oil as I don't think the results could be much better. Any input or advise is welcome. Thanks again for everybody's interest in this.

I guess you can see the new Mobil 0w40 formulation change as my zinc/phos levels have dropped with recent oil changes.



DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/02/17 03:56 AM

Looking good !!!
Posted By: Onug

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/02/17 03:01 PM

Nice to see an oil getting happy with its engine
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/06/17 04:12 AM

Haven't forgot about this. But not putting on as many miles as I used to. Still have about 500 miles and a couple of AutoX events to go. Hopefully will put up another boring Blackstone report .........

DH
Posted By: bluesubie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/07/17 02:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.


Christian


Huh ????

I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742

I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.

That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/12/17 12:32 AM

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.


Christian


Huh ????

I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742

I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.

That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.


Thanks for the links, interesting reading. I'm definitely going to stick with Mobil as long as my lead stays low ........

DH
Posted By: 97 GTP

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/14/17 03:29 PM

It's hard to compare Mobil to Redline. As mentioned the Redline is an ester based oil with a high film strength (HTHS) and excellent cleaning abilities. There was a member here (Molecule?) that was an oil chemist that was very fond of Redline an normally recommended a weight drop from recommended due to the high HTHS value. IIRC Redline 5w20 has a higher film strength than Mobil 5w30.

I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/15/17 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: 97 GTP
It's hard to compare Mobil to Redline. As mentioned the Redline is an ester based oil with a high film strength (HTHS) and excellent cleaning abilities. There was a member here (Molecule?) that was an oil chemist that was very fond of Redline an normally recommended a weight drop from recommended due to the high HTHS value. IIRC Redline 5w20 has a higher film strength than Mobil 5w30.

I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.


I started using Redline on first fill after I bought the car with 18K miles on it.
The first 4 fills with elevated LEAD were with Redline 5w30
The subsequent fills were with Mobil 0w40.
You can see the dramatic trend which has continued, the soon as I switched.





Thanks for your input.

DH
Posted By: IllinoisSparky

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/15/17 04:24 PM

Is it possible that this was just break-in wear reducing over time?
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4

If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things. eek
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome.... crzy
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 12:58 AM

I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion. In any case I would avoid Red Line. I doubt it's the viscosity. You would probably get lower lead values with any API-certified oil, conventional or synthetic, thin or thick.

That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: IllinoisSparky
Is it possible that this was just break-in wear reducing over time?
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4

If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things. eek
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome.... crzy


I'm not sure if you are looking at the reports correctly. That is not a linear drop in lead from where I started using Mobil 0w40. Its more like an exponential drop.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion. In any case I would avoid Red Line. I doubt it's the viscosity. You would probably get lower lead values with any API-certified oil, conventional or synthetic, thin or thick.

That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.


I'm certainly not qualified to interpret Redlines effectiveness or lead leaching issues. I'm just certain that my Blackstone results speak for them selves. Before I switched to Mobil 0w40 I was sure I had a worn bearing issue that I had to deal with. Now I just have to worry about how much money I save over buying Redling !!!!

DH
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 07:14 AM

Hey there,

It has nothing to do with the M1 0W-40 but everything to do with the Red Line. You would get similar results with conventional Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. However, a randomly formulated boutique oil that wasn't tested for anything and that doesn't meet a single API or ACEA specification was chosen. That's as bad as it gets unless you use some fake oil. Blending motor oil is not trivial. It requires extensive tests, of which Red Line probably carries none. Its specs are a joke: recommended for any certification (but doesn't meet any certification).
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 09:25 AM

I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 06:42 PM

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.

That's because few cars have lead bearings today and few people use Red Line.

It could be anything, such as an incompatibility between the base oil and detergent that prevents the detergent from inhibiting corrosion. That's why it's crucial for any oil blend to be thoroughly bench-tested before it's marketed. When you buy an API-certified oil, you know that this has been done; otherwise, you don't.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 08:49 PM

I think we have a huge problem here with chasing UOA results when comparing oils of totally different chemistries. Until someone tears down a Red Line engine and shows that there was bearing wear, and not just elevated numbers for some other reason, we're just speculating. You simply can't compare totally different viscosities and chemistries and hope to come up with something meaningful.

If you want to chase good numbers, run a VOA.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 10:03 PM

He has done many UOAs with both oils. The effect is obvious. The viscosity is ruled out as the two oils have very similar viscosities -- HTHSV being 3.7 cP for Red Line vs. 3.8 cP for M1 0W-40 SN old formula. Besides, these engines shouldn't be too picky on the viscosity and even 0W-20 shouldn't cause bearing wear.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/16/17 10:07 PM

It must be one of those few cars with lead in the bearings?
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 12:31 AM

Here is another UOA in an engine with lead bearings -- same problem with Red Line, this time even a higher viscosity, not preventing lead corrosion in the bearings. Note that bearing corrosion always results in bearing wear. WRX normally has very low amounts of wear metals.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444003

Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 12:56 AM

That still doesn't indicate any bearing wear. Comparing a couple UOAs of one oil chemistry versus another is reading things into a UOA that were never intended.
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 12:58 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?

Uncertified, maybe. But untested? Do you think any boutique company, much less Red Line, whips stuff up without testing? Considering they print data sheets, they obviously must do at least some testing, unless they're just pulling every number out of thin air.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 02:54 AM

Redline, if I recall is part of Phillips 66 now. If their oil did not meet specs, I'm sure we would have heard by now. Yes it is a specialty oil.

I'm still waiting for the answer to the lead scavenging component. Ajax powder? The whole idea is speculation at best.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 09:49 PM

Glad to see this informative dialogue going on.

Just to be clear these LS7 motors can cost $17 to replace when all is said and done. So spinning a bearing was a major concern for me. And I don't know where else the lead would be coming from.

Thanks to the advise I received here I was able to stop losing sleep over this issue.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/17/17 09:59 PM

It's certainly a concern, and I'd share your concern if it were me. But, remember, these are tiny little concentrations, and they could be indicative of a problem. However, the chance that a high HTHS oil like Red Line is putting you in danger of spinning a bearing is pretty remote. These things can use low HTHS ILSAC lubes, and Red Line 5w-30 is a danger?

Of course, that's the problem with trying to compare UOAs across different viscosities and chemistries - chasing shadows and parts per million. Now, like I said, I'd certainly be concerned about it, too, but it would be interesting to see what other Red Line UOAs look like in the same engine family, and what is actually going on. And, what you did is perfectly acceptable and sensible.

The real danger in using Red Line is the cost. I know you meant $17,000 to replace, but Red Line is like $17 a litre. wink
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 12:00 AM

What is missing in this discussion is that lead-bearing wear is not only caused by mechanical wear (hydrodynamics, viscosity, and additives playing a role) but also acids, which are combustion byproducts coming from nitrites, sulfates, base-oil oxidation, and so on. Detergents are supposed to protect against acids but they need to be bench-tested in the given base-oil and additive package to make sure that they work. Unfortunately, Red Line doesn't seem to carry out bench tests. One thing I noticed is the extremely high moly content. Moly fights for surfaces as well as detergents and it may be what is preventing from detergents removing the acids from the surfaces. Also, ester base stocks strongly fight for surfaces and they may also be preventing the detergents from doing their job in removing the acids from the lead bearings.

There is a very good paper by Chevron Oronite (link) on how lead corrosion is a huge concern in heavy-duty diesel engines and how critical the choice of detergents in the oil is to prevent this.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 02:21 AM

Yes $17,000 !!!!!!

And that is why I had no problem paying double or triple the cost of another oil if it was going to protect my motor better.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 04:09 AM

No, it's not missing. I'm aware of corrosion. What's really missing is how many PPM corresponds to how much wear, and that's missing because that cannot be accomplished.

Dirty Howie: The last time I saw Canadian Tire have a good clearance price on anything, it was when they were getting rid of Red Line. Of course, two litres at a good price is essentially useless.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 05:12 AM

I can go to Walmart and get Mobil cheap. Or I can go to any local auto parts store, they all carry it. So much easier to get and of course cheaper than Redline.

I have a little trepidation concerning the reformulation of Mobil1 0w40. Do you know anything about it? Should be changing my oil in a few weeks I hope there is no change in my lead readings..........

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 06:22 AM

There is something to be said for availability - a lot to be said for it. I wouldn't be concerned about the new M1 0w-40 formulation. It meets pretty much all the same things it did before, aside from LL-01.

Unfortunately, as much as we can be annoyed by reformulations, I think we have to resign ourselves to them being a fact of life.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 06:38 AM

M1 0W-40, both the old and new versions, is the wrong oil for your engine. GM factory-filled it with M1 5W-30 and that's what is recommended. Your bearing issue has nothing to do with the viscosity and thick oil will only increase your oil and bearing temperatures and rob off your horsepower and fuel economy.
Posted By: robertcope

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 10:11 AM

You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/18/17 11:21 PM

Originally Posted By: robertcope
You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.

I would think that Corvette engines are built in a single factory and therefore they are factory-filled and shipped with the same oil regardless of where they are finally exported to.

We keep going around this CAFE-conspiracy nonsense in circles.

There is no need to use a thicker oil than recommended by the manufacturer. It will not reduce wear and it will not protect your engine better. In fact, it will do more harm than good. Why do you think higher oil temperature and less oil flow is good for your engine? In addition, you are losing horsepower and burning more fuel.

See my thread on thin or thick:

Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 12:16 AM







Posted By: PimTac

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 01:49 AM

Looks like GM has the final verdict here.
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40, both the old and new versions, is the wrong oil for your engine. GM factory-filled it with M1 5W-30 and that's what is recommended.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: robertcope
You know that GM factory fills 0W-40 in other countries, right? That used to be the case, anyhow.

I would think that Corvette engines are built in a single factory and therefore they are factory-filled and shipped with the same oil (Read:5W30 .... my insertion) regardless of where they are finally exported to.

We keep going around this CAFE-conspiracy nonsense in circles.


Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie


Sounds too familiar here ........
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 05:28 AM

Quote:
but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion.....

I'm certainly not qualified to interpret Redlines effectiveness or lead leaching issues. ....
Before I switched to Mobil 0w40 I was sure I had a worn bearing issue that I had to deal with.....

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Quote:
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.

That's because few cars have lead bearings today and few people use Red Line.
It could be anything, such as an incompatibility between the base oil and detergent that prevents the detergent from inhibiting corrosion.


Loads of rubbixh, we have here.

Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !







...... and Red Line 5W30 UOA's in 2012-2010, 5-7 ppm lead ..





Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 07:31 AM

Originally Posted By: zeng
Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !

That's because those bearings have 0% lead to begin with.

And your explanation for the high lead?
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 07:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie



Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.

You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.


The car in question is a 2006, that pamphlet is from 2008.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.


GM has recommended M1 15w-50 in more recent applications for track use that otherwise spec 5w-30 for day-to-day. Since the OP autocrosses the car, I don't see using the 0w-40 as being illogical.

This is from the 2014 Corvette manual:
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That's because those bearings have 0% lead to begin with.

Wow ....... what a wild, baseless and sweeping falsehoods typically being spewed, as always,in most of your postings in Bitog.
I'd presented my evidences in the four UOA's above, pl provide your evidence to members here to support "your falsehoods that ALL above bearings are lead-free" as truth !



Quote:
Recent (2016-2013) Red Line 5W30 UOA's showing 0/1 ppm lead !

GM 6.2L V8 engine with 4 UOA samples ,out of which:
a)1 UOA sample confirms presence of lead, other than that
b)all 4 UOA samples show presence of copper/tin combination , by extension, indicating a lead alloy trimetal bearing in use.

Quote:

Ford 2.0L EcoBoost has 6 UOA samples, out of which:
a)2 UOA samples confirms presence of lead, and on top of that,
b)all 6 UOA samples show presence of copper/tin combination, pointing to a lead alloy trimetal bearing being in use.


Quote:

Unknown engine has 1 UOA sample demonstrating:
a)confirms presence of lead in bearing/overlay materials, and besides that,
b)presence of copper/nickel combination points to a lead alloy trimetal bearing.

Quote:
...... and Red Line 5W30 UOA's in 2012-2010, 5-7 ppm lead ..


Nissan 3.7L V6 has 3 UOA samples whereby:
a)all 3 UOA samples confirms presence of lead in bearing, and
b)all 3 UOA samples show presence of copper/nickel combination, again pointing to a lead alloy trimetal bearing being used.


Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!

You are one of those people who troll other people's posts without bringing a single idea into the discussion.

I repeat my question to you above. You are the one side-tracking and trolling me. If you don't know the answer, stop talking.
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 07:37 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Really old. Not an oil-recommendation chart but an oil ad printed in Europe.

The car in question is a 2006, that pamphlet is from 2008.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can speculate why the chart would be different for Europe vs. US. Yes, they do have longer oil-drain intervals there (hence an high-SAPS oil like M1 0W-40), and yes, in Germany there are no speed limits on certain roads (hence higher viscosity for racing on autobahns). In any case 5W-30 is what GM recommends here and it will work -- probably better than 0W-40. Or you can blame the CAFE and run 10W-60.

GM has recommended M1 15w-50 in more recent applications for track use that otherwise spec 5w-30 for day-to-day. Since the OP autocrosses the car, I don't see using the 0w-40 as being illogical.

This is from the 2014 Corvette manual:


Yes, like with any engine, OP may benefit from a thicker oil if he is racing. However, benefits, if any, depend on many factors.
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/19/17 11:14 PM

Well, he IS racing, and I'd defer to GM's advice on this, given they manufacture the product and in the last few years their approach has been to recommend a much heavier lubricant under those operating conditions. Ergo, I don't find it inappropriate to use the 0w-40 in the OP's case, and I recall being one of the people who recommended it to him, in fact that was the case in this very thread back in 2015:

Mobil 1 0w-40 recommendation

Knowing that this very oil (M1 0w-40) was the standard product for his car in other locations further reinforces the logic of continuing on with it.
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/21/17 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!

You are one of those people who troll other people's posts without bringing a single idea into the discussion.

I repeat my question to you above. You are the one side-tracking and trolling me. If you don't know the answer, stop talking.


Please accept my apology for having sounded harsh on you. Cheers1
Posted By: Gokhan

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/21/17 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
And your explanation for the high lead?

Refer DH latest posts above.
Do not side-track please!

You are one of those people who troll other people's posts without bringing a single idea into the discussion.

I repeat my question to you above. You are the one side-tracking and trolling me. If you don't know the answer, stop talking.

Please accept my apology for having sounded harsh on you. Cheers1

Cheers1
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/10/17 01:30 AM

Looks like PhotoBucket wants to charge now to host images.

Here are my reports for those who want to see them.





DH
Posted By: gryffinwings

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 07/10/17 04:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Looks like PhotoBucket wants to charge now to host images.

Here are my reports for those who want to see them.





DH


Thank you for posting, that oil looks like it's doing a great job.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/24/17 04:23 AM

Getting oil changed this weekend. Let it go to 4K miles this time with 7 AutoX days. Will post results soon as I get the Blackstone report back.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/08/17 01:44 AM

Okay, here is my most recent Blackstone that just arrived today.

The only thing I notice is that my Phosphorus and Zinc keep going down. Is this all because the new formulation of Mobil 0w40 ? Or is it somehow used up or absorbed?

I have more miles and more AutoX days on this interval.



DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/10/17 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Okay, here is my most recent Blackstone that just arrived today.

The only thing I notice is that my Phosphorus and Zinc keep going down. Is this all because the new formulation of Mobil 0w40 ? Or is it somehow used up or absorbed?

I have more miles and more AutoX days on this interval.



DH



No comments ??????/
Are people bored with my oil reports?
Should I stop posting?

DH
Posted By: CT8

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/11/17 02:53 AM

I rather enjoy watching the progression of your UOAs. Thanks.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/11/17 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: CT8
I rather enjoy watching the progression of your UOAs. Thanks.


Okay, great.
Any input on the decreasing zinc/phos?

DH
Posted By: edhackett

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/11/17 02:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: CT8
I rather enjoy watching the progression of your UOAs. Thanks.


Okay, great.
Any input on the decreasing zinc/phos?

DH


I don't see that happening. Your current analysis is within expected lab error of your previous three analysis. The first one after the change of oils shows carry-over from the Redline.

Ed
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/11/17 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: CT8
I rather enjoy watching the progression of your UOAs. Thanks.


Okay, great.
Any input on the decreasing zinc/phos?

DH


I don't see that happening. Your current analysis is within expected lab error of your previous three analysis. The first one after the change of oils shows carry-over from the Redline.

Ed


Thanks. Appreciate your input. It just looked like a trend to me.

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 01/29/18 12:01 AM

Just changed the oil and will send in sample tomorrow. 3550 miles same Mobil1 0w40 oil.
Posted By: JustN89

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/02/18 07:26 AM

I would really like to see a run on Redline 0W-40 just to make an even comparison and put some of the debate to rest. Granted, that's easier for me to say seeing as it's not my car! grin
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/07/18 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: JustN89
I would really like to see a run on Redline 0W-40 just to make an even comparison and put some of the debate to rest. Granted, that's easier for me to say seeing as it's not my car! grin


Its not that it would be hard to do. And its not even that the Redline costs more. Its just that I can't risk going back to the wear metals and the significance of that which I was seeing with the Redline.

Should be getting latest results any day now.....

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/10/18 03:29 AM

Okay, here is my latest report.
Blackstone sure seems happy with it.
Anyone concerned that Iron level is up?
Several AutoCross days on this interval as usual.






DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/10/18 09:03 AM

I'd call the iron inconsequential. It's only a slight uptick, and it hasn't been that long since changing oil chemistries, so no need for alarm.
Posted By: zeng

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/10/18 01:45 PM

Corrossion wear in cold season and frequent short trips may have a role in the Fe ppm, I guess.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/10/18 08:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Garak
I'd call the iron inconsequential. It's only a slight uptick, and it hasn't been that long since changing oil chemistries, so no need for alarm.


Thanks. So you would be happy with this report, right?

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/10/18 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: zeng
Corrossion wear in cold season and frequent short trips may have a role in the Fe ppm, I guess.


Well although I am in SoCal this last oil usage saw much cooler cold starting temps.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/11/18 03:17 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Thanks. So you would be happy with this report, right?

Yes. Things are looking "better" than they were, at least if we're chasing UOA results. All looks in order. Chevy motors are suppose to give high iron, and so is M1, so all is fine. wink

In all seriousness, I wouldn't worry at all. It should be no problem with iron floating around that number.
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/23/18 01:56 AM

The OP is obsessing too much over autocrossing an LS7 Corvette for about 30 minutes during a 3000 mile oil change interval.
Relax.
The dry sump system in a C6 Z06 holds a lot of oil, and 1.5 minutes on an autocross course is not long enough to heat the oil to any worrisome temperature.
He could safely run the oil until the OLM says to change it. He could probably even safely use M1 5w30 instead of the 0w40.
The decrease in lead after the switch from Redline to M1 is interesting, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that changes my opinion about the cause since I posted it in 2015.
I wonder about the low Phosphorous readings that Blackstone has been getting (from 7/2016 to 8/2017), and would ask them about it. M1 0w40 should have 1000 ppm. I have noticed that Blackstone's Phosphorous readings are often less than the PDS specs, but not by that much. The Iron wear numbers were low during that period.
The Iron wear rates are all less than 1 ppm per 1000 miles, and that's pretty darn good.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/23/18 05:55 AM

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The OP is obsessing too much over autocrossing an LS7 Corvette for about 30 minutes during a 3000 mile oil change interval.
Relax.
The dry sump system in a C6 Z06 holds a lot of oil, and 1.5 minutes on an autocross course is not long enough to heat the oil to any worrisome temperature.
He could safely run the oil until the OLM says to change it. He could probably even safely use M1 5w30 instead of the 0w40.
The decrease in lead after the switch from Redline to M1 is interesting, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that changes my opinion about the cause since I posted it in 2015.
I wonder about the low Phosphorous readings that Blackstone has been getting (from 7/2016 to 8/2017), and would ask them about it. M1 0w40 should have 1000 ppm. I have noticed that Blackstone's Phosphorous readings are often less than the PDS specs, but not by that much. The Iron wear numbers were low during that period.
The Iron wear rates are all less than 1 ppm per 1000 miles, and that's pretty darn good.


Although I appreciate your input I have no idea where you are getting this "obsession over autoX" from. I used to road race regularly and don't think AutoX compares at all in terms of engine wear. The ONLY thing I was ever concerned about was LEAD level. And the ONLY reason for that was that it likely meant bearing wear. The LS7 is an extremely expensive engine to replace so I feel OCI at 3-4K and closely watching my wear metals is prudent.

And I agree about phos levels but don't see where you get the iron wear rate calculation from??

Thanks
DH
Posted By: Bullwinkle007

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 02/26/18 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
GM now specs 15W50 if tracked or raced. You'd mentioned tacking your car to the track twice.


Are you just parroting information that applies to C7's...or do you actually have a document that shows this as GM approved for a '06 Z06?


regardless running 15/50 wont hurt to use it full time, they want you to use 5/30 for mpg you wont see vette mpg with heavy ol, but you will with 5/30
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/04/18 11:04 PM

Here is my latest UOA

Looks like my lead has definitely stabilized below the average for these motors for which I am very happy about.

Other than the Iron everything else seems to be extremely stable and below the average for these motors.

As they mention my Iron is creeping up yet still below average for these motors. One source of Iron could be the powder metal valve for which these motors have an known problem of excessive wear. What else would cause this slow increase in Iron. Should I be concerned? I am getting my heads checked for excessive guide wear in next month or so.



DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/04/18 11:14 PM

What are you running for a filter?
Posted By: irv

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/05/18 12:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Here is my latest UOA

Looks like my lead has definitely stabilized below the average for these motors for which I am very happy about.

Other than the Iron everything else seems to be extremely stable and below the average for these motors.

As they mention my Iron is creeping up yet still below average for these motors. One source of Iron could be the powder metal valve for which these motors have an known problem of excessive wear. What else would cause this slow increase in Iron. Should I be concerned? I am getting my heads checked for excessive guide wear in next month or so.



DH


I'd really like to see another UOA running PP/PUP or another quality oil then another one right after that one running Mobil again.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/05/18 01:48 AM

Stock AC/Delco. There are two listed for the motor, I have the newer model ...... forgot the part number.

Why do you ask??

DH
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/05/18 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: irv

I'd really like to see another UOA running PP/PUP or another quality oil then another one right after that one running Mobil again.


Don't hold your breath unless there is a consensus that this would actually help the Iron and not hurt the Lead readings.

DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/05/18 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Stock AC/Delco. There are two listed for the motor, I have the newer model ...... forgot the part number.

Why do you ask??

DH


Thinking that a higher flow but finer filtering filter could perhaps be of benefit. Would be interesting to see if it has an impact on the iron. Something like the Fram Ultra or AMSOIL EaO.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/05/18 02:45 PM

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Thinking that a higher flow but finer filtering filter could perhaps be of benefit. Would be interesting to see if it has an impact on the iron. Something like the Fram Ultra or AMSOIL EaO.


Will consider on my next oil change.
Thanks

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/06/18 02:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Other than the Iron everything else seems to be extremely stable and below the average for these motors.

I say the iron is stable, and well within norms.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/06/18 04:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Other than the Iron everything else seems to be extremely stable and below the average for these motors.

I say the iron is stable, and well within norms.


I appreciate that.

DH
Posted By: alarmguy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/06/18 10:46 AM

Not sure why anyone would use Redline ... :o) seems if there is a question, its Redline ...

Why not try the recommended oil? Clearly the Redline isnt doing it for your engine.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/06/18 06:59 PM

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Not sure why anyone would use Redline ... :o) seems if there is a question, its Redline ...

Why not try the recommended oil? Clearly the Redline isnt doing it for your engine.


Not sure if you just saw the OP or followed along.
Oil was changed to Mobil1 0w40 long time ago.
Look at my last Blackstone report a few posts above !!!

DH
Posted By: irv

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 06/10/18 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: irv

I'd really like to see another UOA running PP/PUP or another quality oil then another one right after that one running Mobil again.


Don't hold your breath unless there is a consensus that this would actually help the Iron and not hurt the Lead readings.

DH


I haven't read all 30 pgs of this thread but judging from the UOAs I did see, what do you have to lose at this point?
I'd give PP or PUP a try at this point. Not saying it will, but the next UOA after a run of either oil may just surprise you?
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/18 10:18 PM

Here is my latest oil change. The milage is a little less than normal as I had my cylinder heads replaced a couple of weeks ago. Disregard the Blackstone reference to head replacement as they obviously misunderstood what I was saying. I am doing oil change after 500 miles of break-in of heads. I will not be sending that for testing but will wait for normal interval after that.
[Linked Image]

DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/18 10:31 PM

Looks great, nothing unusual thumbsup
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/22/18 11:08 PM

Yes, nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 09/23/18 02:02 AM

Thanks guys.

DH
Posted By: froggy47

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/23/18 08:37 PM

Hi DH,

Read all pages here as I am trying to figure the oil in my 2013 10k mi z06 stock heads. DD, cold starts, autox 1x mo. New to me unknown oil now, assume dealer serviced. Used RL 10 yrs in my ls6, excellent. But, this is ls7 with it's own "characteristics".

So read all 20 pgs, long/short going with M1 0w-40 & will get old oil Blackstoned and will pull a sample of new @ 3k mi. Wish me luck & THANKS for all this discussion/info!

Froggy
Posted By: joekingcorvette

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/25/18 02:59 PM

I didn't read all the posts however as a long time Corvette owner of about 20 years I know quite a bit about their quirks. The 6th generation Z-06 Corvettes are known to have cylinder head issues and this may be where your wear is coming from. Do a google search and you will find many articles on how to correctly repair the heads in order to prevent dropping a valve. I know there are many aftermarket manufacturers that can redo the heads. One such product is called a Frankenstein head and they have had good results. I would get those heads redone correctly before you have more severe issues. I know it costs about $2000.00 for parts and labor if you have it done by a competent shop and thats from start to finish without taking anything apart yourself. I bought my 05 new but is just a Z-51 with the 6.0 engine and it doesn't use a drop between changes.
Posted By: Impatient

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 12/28/18 07:34 PM

Just read thru entire thread. Interesting, even for someone who does not have a Vette, or any motor even similar to yours. But I do have Pb reading in the low 30’s...on the one and only UOA I have done on the Ford.

My question is, now that your UOA’s look so good (except maybe Fe), why did you have to replace the heads? Should the UOA’s have given you warning? OK, I’ll shut up until you answer; maybe it was a “power upgrade.”
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/15/19 02:58 PM

So here is my latest Blackstone report. As a reminder I had new GM heads replaced after they were inspected and valve seats lapped by Richard at WCCH. OEM powder metal guides and all other components are stock.

This is the first full (3K miles) oil change since my heads were replaced. I did change oil after the first 500 miles. So total of 3.5K miles since heads replaced. Everything is consistent with previous reports except increase of Iron (2-3X my average). Do you think this is normal and more time necessary till motor is completely flushed out or do you think this is indicative of new GM powder metal guides wearing in or wearing poorly?

The motor continues to be quiet. And there was very little, less than ever iron fuzz on my magnetic oil plugs. So I was surprised to see the iron levels up so much.cheersDH

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/16/19 08:02 AM

Always like seeing this car's reports. Planning to keep her for a while longer?
Posted By: dailydriver

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/16/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gasbuggy
Always like seeing this car's reports. Planning to keep her for a while longer?



I most certainly would if I owned one. thumbsup drive

The LAST very high performance naturally aspirated Vette out there, save for the C7 Grand Sport with all of the track options, which is still down on power to this car as it came from the factory, yup, even with most of the bolt-ons (excepting heads/cam changes) which could be done to the LT-1s. frown
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/16/19 09:39 PM

Thanks guys. No plan on ever selling this car. I AutoX twice a month and daily drive it.

Any comments on the IRON ??!!

DH
Posted By: OVERKILL

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/16/19 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty_Howie
Thanks guys. No plan on ever selling this car. I AutoX twice a month and daily drive it.

Any comments on the IRON ??!!

DH


As long as it trends down going forward I wouldn't worry.
Posted By: talest

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/16/19 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dirty_Howie
Thanks guys. No plan on ever selling this car. I AutoX twice a month and daily drive it.

Any comments on the IRON ??!!

DH


Iron is not a big deal, The oil you have in there is probably the best you can buy. Don't get bent out of shape about the Iron. Another major oil brand did had the same thing and the concensus is that it is a non-issue.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/17/19 02:23 AM

Thanks guys. I certainly am hoping for a downward trend.
And iron is certainly the metal I am least concerned with and very happy others especially lead continue to be low.

DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/20/19 09:17 AM

I, too, would say the iron is not a big concern right now, given how early we are since the head install.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/20/19 01:57 PM

Ok. I appreciate that. Guess will just wait till next oil change.

DH
Posted By: Pinoak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/20/19 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Falken
After reading up just now that Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W40 has a NOACK of 13, I just can't recommend Pennzoil products anymore.

I would seriously pull out the Big Guns and go Amsoil SSO 0W40 for two OCIs and get another oil report.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...-series-100-percent-synthetic-motor-oil/

I just don't think Red Line is working out on your car. And yes I agree with others the 30wt might be too thin!

Why can't you recommend Pennzoil anymore. Just curious if I missed something.
I didn't have a good result with my last oci of Pennzoil platinum but I can't say it was the oil to blame, I just dunno why.
Posted By: dave1251

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/20/19 05:17 PM

DH try skipping the Auto Rx how you have maintained your Vette there is no reason to use it. Mobil One in the past has shown to produce higher than average iron you can try another brand 40 grade if you like.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/21/19 04:24 AM

Dave

Not sure what you are saying?
My IRON has been low has always been low until this last report which followed my head replacement.

DH
Posted By: dave1251

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/21/19 06:37 AM

Mobil One historically has produced higher than average iron numbers in UOA. This with the facts of using Auto Rx which I would skip in your situation and you have new heads is adding a few variables for the uptick in iron. Honestly I would just use Mobil One and annual UOA's with your Vette and continue to enjoy your track time.
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/21/19 08:52 AM

Head replacement is very likely the cause of your iron levels jumping. They opened the engine up and now that new valvetrain has to wear in. Don't sweat it.
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/21/19 05:18 PM

Thanks guys!

DH
Posted By: sprinj76

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/29/19 10:05 PM

DH, just wanted to say thank you for posting all your UOA's. I'm going to try mobil 1 0W-40 in my LS1, I usually do 2-3 autoX events each summer. I'll post up my results after 2-3k miles.
Posted By: dailydriver

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/29/19 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by sprinj76
DH, just wanted to say thank you for posting all your UOA's. I'm going to try mobil 1 0W-40 in my LS1, I usually do 2-3 autoX events each summer. I'll post up my results after 2-3k miles.


C5, or 4th gen f-body?
Posted By: sprinj76

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/30/19 11:46 AM

F-body. 98 Z28
Posted By: dailydriver

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 03/30/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by sprinj76
F-body. 98 Z28



cool My last ride, before the one in my sig, was a 250K+ mile (in 16 years since ordered new by me), was a no option, '00 Z28 manual. drive
Posted By: Dirty_Howie

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/08/19 12:39 AM

Okay, here is my Blackstone from a couple of days ago. I am relieved to see my iron levels lower. I am doing 2-3 AutoX per month now so am using more oil. Used 1/8 of a quart on last one. And lets not forget my high Lead levels which are now lower than universal averages. So happy I am running Mobil 0w40


[Linked Image]


DH
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/08/19 05:06 AM

Seems to be all evening out now, which is fine. We still don't have enough data since that last iron bump but I wouldn't worry, as I said before. The engine gets worked. I think General Motors has a rule that their UOAs must throw iron levels that are elevated in comparison to most of the competition, irrespective of engine family. wink
Posted By: A_Harman

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/11/19 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted by A_Harman
The OP is obsessing too much over autocrossing an LS7 Corvette for about 30 minutes during a 3000 mile oil change interval.
Relax.
The dry sump system in a C6 Z06 holds a lot of oil, and 1.5 minutes on an autocross course is not long enough to heat the oil to any worrisome temperature.
He could safely run the oil until the OLM says to change it. He could probably even safely use M1 5w30 instead of the 0w40.
The decrease in lead after the switch from Redline to M1 is interesting, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that changes my opinion about the cause since I posted it in 2015.
I wonder about the low Phosphorous readings that Blackstone has been getting (from 7/2016 to 8/2017), and would ask them about it. M1 0w40 should have 1000 ppm. I have noticed that Blackstone's Phosphorous readings are often less than the PDS specs, but not by that much. The Iron wear numbers were low during that period.
The Iron wear rates are all less than 1 ppm per 1000 miles, and that's pretty darn good.


Although I appreciate your input I have no idea where you are getting this "obsession over autoX" from. I used to road race regularly and don't think AutoX compares at all in terms of engine wear. The ONLY thing I was ever concerned about was LEAD level. And the ONLY reason for that was that it likely meant bearing wear. The LS7 is an extremely expensive engine to replace so I feel OCI at 3-4K and closely watching my wear metals is prudent.

And I agree about phos levels but don't see where ou get the iron wear rate calculation from??

Thanks
DH


My goodness this thread had a lot of life after I posted in it back in 2015!

But to answer your most recent question: The Iron wear rate calculation is directly from the data on the report: ppm Iron divided by the oil change interval miles.

I used to track my Camaro regularly on Redline 5w30 and never had a problem with Lead concentration in a UOA. Here is an old UOA from my Camaro on Redline 5w30: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...e-5w30-ls1-camaro-5800-miles#Post2906981
One of the big differences between your LS7 and my LS1 is that my LS1 doesn't have Titanium rods.

By saying "obsessing over autocrossing", I was trying to encourage you to extend the OCI to the point where the oil life monitor tells you to change it.

I stated long ago that the LS7 has aluminum bearings in it, and that the lead was likely coming from the connecting rod small end bushings. The LS7 has Titanium rods and needs leaded bronze small end bushings. But everybody kept saying it was bearing wear. I think it was the high concentration (500+ppm) of Moly in the Redline leaching Lead out of the rod small end bushings. So it was chemistry, not physics, that was likely causing the elevated Lead readings.
Posted By: Gasbuggy

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/11/19 03:51 AM

Interesting theory. Wonder if RedLine would have an opinion
Posted By: Garak

Re: Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead - 08/11/19 11:28 PM

It does make sense and is something we've seen often enough. I find it hard to believe that a slightly thicker lube is somehow causing people to chew through bearing material.
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