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When redundancy goes out the window

Posted By: Exhaustgases

When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 02:34 AM

This was horrible, and no excuse for it. B17's came home with vertical stabilizers missing and many other parts as well. Then there was the Israeli plane that was missing a wing that flew back.
Losing all hydraulics is no excuse to lose all control ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOFOLoTX7w
Posted By: Driz

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:21 AM

Redundancy wouldn’t have helped them. That was caused by a faulty repair years earlier after a hard landing. They didn’t put enough rivets in the rear pressure bulkhead when they made the repair and it eventually failed. I think it was supposed to have a double row of rivets and they only used one eventually causing it to crack and blow out .
Iirc the mechanic that approved the repair killed him self when he found out the root cause of the crash. Even the Japanese authorities got into the cluster$&#@ act by forbidding USAF search and rescue who were first on scene to participate. Supposedly there were a few survivors who died while they got their act together and figured out how to get on scene.
Posted By: Hombre909

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:26 AM

RIP to the brave, seasoned crew and passengers. Shoddy maintenance to blame, not the pilots.
Posted By: samven

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:28 AM

You would think we would learn, but those that forget the past are bound to repeat it. Now we have the 737 MAX, Drive by wire cars, companies that want robotic self driving 18 wheelers. What could go wrong. Nothing until it does.
Posted By: Astro14

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:58 AM

If only we were still flying the B-17 and the Dc-7.

How lucky, how safe, we would all be!
Posted By: JustN89

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 04:38 AM

The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

Attached picture Bulkhead_Repair.png
Posted By: edyvw

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by JustN89
The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

I think this was done by JAL mechanics, not Boeing.
Posted By: Olas

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 09:15 AM

weld, dont rivet.
Posted By: djb

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.
Posted By: Astro14

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.


Don't you understand! We need to weld airplanes from strong steel, not this thin aluminum! We need to bring back piston driven propellers for safety! We need control cables, not this stupid hydraulic control system! Round dials! No computers!

There is no excuse for not having all steel, welded airframes controlled by cables, powered by pistons, and instrumented by mechanical components!

You guys can keep feeding the troll if you like.

I'm done giving serious answers to inflammatory, trolling posts.
Posted By: 4WD

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 02:52 PM

HaHa … Totally agree … only on washing machines
Boeing needs a composite single aisle FBW with P&W PP’s as the 797
Posted By: Cujet

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.



I believe the Eclipse jet used friction stir welding on some wing and fuselage structures. I've not had a chance to deal with this design.

[Linked Image from image1.slideserve.com]
Posted By: JustN89

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JustN89
The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

I think this was done by JAL mechanics, not Boeing.

No, the repair was done by a team of Boeing specialists, not by JAL mechanics.

"'We examined the aft pressure bulkhead at the site of the crash of Flight 123 and determined that a relatively small section of the bulkhead splice, approximately 17 percent of it, was not correctly assembled during a repair which Boeing made after a 1978 landing incident,' the company advisory said."
Link
Posted By: mk378

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 04:03 PM

Designs don't consider that an incident initiated by in-flight failure of a fixed structural element needs to be survivable. That is something that simply must never happen.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.


Don't you understand! We need to weld airplanes from strong steel, not this thin aluminum! We need to bring back piston driven propellers for safety! We need control cables, not this stupid hydraulic control system! Round dials! No computers!

There is no excuse for not having all steel, welded airframes controlled by cables, powered by pistons, and instrumented by mechanical components!

You guys can keep feeding the troll if you like.

I'm done giving serious answers to inflammatory, trolling posts.




Wait until it delves into carbon fiber construction and why we shouldn’t have plastic airplanes.

🎣 🎹🎶
Posted By: nickaluch

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/22/20 04:48 PM

Tragic but interesting video thanks for sharing
Posted By: edyvw

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/23/20 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by JustN89
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by JustN89
The issue, if I'm remembering right, was in the splicing of the bulkhead repairs (instead of replacing it as one solid piece) The mechanics that performed the repair were representatives of Boeing, and the repair was never reinspected by JAL. I work in Technical Operations for an airline and we've used this accident many times as a case study for the importance of performing repairs by the book, precise documentation of the repairs, and accurate tracking of follow up inspections. Here's a diagram of the correct way to perform the repair and how it was performed by the Boeing team.

I think this was done by JAL mechanics, not Boeing.

No, the repair was done by a team of Boeing specialists, not by JAL mechanics.

"'We examined the aft pressure bulkhead at the site of the crash of Flight 123 and determined that a relatively small section of the bulkhead splice, approximately 17 percent of it, was not correctly assembled during a repair which Boeing made after a 1978 landing incident,' the company advisory said."
Link

Right! I was thinking CI611.
Posted By: Exhaustgases

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/23/20 04:59 AM

Always have to revert to name calling, when a discussion gets interesting ! The term "Troll".
Posted By: BusyLittleShop

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/23/20 06:12 AM

Open a widow so I can catch my breath...
[Linked Image]
Posted By: KneeGrinder

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/24/20 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by djb
Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


Errrm, how much welded aluminum do you see in airframe construction? For this type of structure, none. The thin material is very difficult to weld, and it can't be properly re-hardened in-situ.


Don't you understand! We need to weld airplanes from strong steel, not this thin aluminum! We need to bring back piston driven propellers for safety! We need control cables, not this stupid hydraulic control system! Round dials! No computers!

There is no excuse for not having all steel, welded airframes controlled by cables, powered by pistons, and instrumented by mechanical components!

You guys can keep feeding the troll if you like.

I'm done giving serious answers to inflammatory, trolling posts.


"Food" for thought, or trolls. Planes should be made from 4130 chromoly so they are extremely strong, they can crash, just dust them off and throw them back up In the air, no harm, no foul!

Need to make the runways a lot Looooonger...

Originally Posted by Olas
weld, dont rivet.


I've never seen 4130 chromoly riveted, weld, weld, weld...
Posted By: KneeGrinder

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/24/20 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by PimTac
Wait until it delves into carbon fiber construction and why we shouldn’t have plastic airplanes. 🎣 🎹🎶


Didn't Boeing just test flight a carbon composite plane last week?
Posted By: PimTac

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/24/20 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Originally Posted by PimTac
Wait until it delves into carbon fiber construction and why we shouldn’t have plastic airplanes. 🎣 🎹🎶


Didn't Boeing just test flight a carbon composite plane last week?




I’ve been riding in them for years going across the Pacific.
Posted By: KneeGrinder

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/25/20 07:59 AM

Yea, but they just designed, built, and did a first test flight I believe on a new airframe last week. Saw it on the local news.
Posted By: ZeeOSix

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/25/20 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Yea, but they just designed, built, and did a first test flight I believe on a new airframe last week. Saw it on the local news.


The new 777X has composite wings.

https://komonews.com/news/local/boeing-777x-takes-inaugural-flight
Posted By: KneeGrinder

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/25/20 08:26 AM

I guess that's it, I'm dysfunctional, I kinda watch TV and surf the Interweb at the same time.
Posted By: PimTac

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 02/25/20 01:33 PM

Yep that was the 777X. It’s a fine looking airplane and it’s big as well.

The Dreamliners are composite.
Posted By: JTK

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 03/02/20 08:16 PM

The luck those few people had that survived that crash? WOW! Talk about a life changing experience that would be.
Posted By: BusyLittleShop

Re: When redundancy goes out the window - 03/02/20 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by PimTac
Wait until it delves into carbon fiber construction and why we shouldn’t have plastic airplanes.

🎣 🎹🎶


Remember this one??? 1944 Donald Duck and his plastic airplane... you're in the dough until it rains...
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