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I am laughing so hard....not really

Posted By: JLTD

I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:04 PM

'08 Liberty in signature. ~154,000 miles. Been solid except for a few niggling Jeep issues, mainly HVAC, which we've had it in for - and warranty work for the same thing- thrice now.

Two weeks ago it threw a code for high coolant pressure and we had a new thermostat installed; all was fine after the repair. Then 5 days ago, wife reported no heat - again. All was fine in between, and suddenly the heat was gone.

Third time no heat, including new manifold under the dash, associated control panel and two heater core replacements mad

I was away so Mrs JLTD stopped driving it and drove mine, only trip in the Jeep was to get her home and later a couple blocks out and back then the drive to the dealer. So back to the dealer we went, for warranty service. Engine's running fine, except started to overheat on the way to the dealer. Pop the hood @ dealership and engine's dry on top with nothing leaking anywhere.


Fast forward 5 hours....get a call and they tell me there's no coolant in the engine shocked2 and they've done a "carbon test" and figured out that the head gasket is gone. OK I think, I've seen a sudden head gasket failure with no external signs before. But why did it take them 5 hours to see that? I was 2nd in line this morning...

Then the service advisor asks, "How much does you wife love this car?". Uh, oh I think. Advisor won't give me the estimate over the phone, says I'll get a texted link. I opened the link and that's when I laughed.


Before I get to the engine--

They also recommend full front and rear brake rotor replacement. I just did the brakes around 20k ago, checked 'em during tire rotation (Sept) and the pads are good. It's 12 years old, got some rust on the calipers, which seems to be the major issue they're having.

Steering rack leaking and needs to be replaced. Just checked the driveway, again, and no sign of anything leaking. The rack was dry when I was under there in October for the oil change (which will be changed again).

Head gasket needs to be replaced, and according to the tech: engine is too old for head gasket replacement, engine needs to be replaced.

And he misspelled "too old" writing "to old" instead. duh

[censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] )^#@$% STEALERSHIP.


Oh, and they want 10 grand. I am tempted to violence, but instead I'll get it to a nearby mechanic we trust. I realize the vehicle's old and to some extent it's throwing good money after bad. Perhaps it's time to get it repaired well enough to go trade it in.....which may be the whole point of the dealer's whopper of an estimate.


/rant

Question: I'm not familiar with the Carbon Test. Can anyone enlighten me before I go down the internet rabbit hole?
Posted By: skyactiv

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:21 PM

Carbon test: https://repairpal.com/how-to-test-for-head-gasket-failure

In large cities, you can sometimes find a garage on the bad side of town that does work cheap. Like swinging in a used engine for $1000.00
Posted By: ragtoplvr

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:22 PM

In college, one of the automotive technology instructors worked with a local TV station doing a dealer /mechanic expose. Nice to see in over 40 years, it has not changed.

That head needs to be checked to see if it is still flat. The top of the block also. Any decent independent mechanic should be able to replace the gasket, and have the head surfaced if needed.

Rod
Posted By: Blkstanger

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:23 PM

They test for Carbon Monoxide in the cooling system. That tells them combustion gasses are passing the head gasket.
Posted By: skyactiv

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:26 PM

Try this, follow the directions to the tee and report back.

Posted By: bullwinkle

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:29 PM

The way you described it-"no heat" multiple times, I would have guessed HG trouble right away. Have they even torn into it to see if the heads are good or not? It might not be that hard to repair, since the coolant has likely been sucked in & burned, and the engine has not been overheated multiple times. Guessing this is under the wonderful "lifetime" powertrain warranty? If the engine is truly toast, the stealership likely hastened its demise by not diagnosing it correctly to begin with.
Posted By: Fotoflame

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:37 PM

Man that sucks.

My wife had a 2001 Honda Civic and the head gasket went with symptoms similar to what you're experiencing. I read it was somewhat of a common problem for Civics of that generation.

I went to a local mechanic and he said it was better off to just replace the engine rather than spend labor hours on removing the head only to find out it was warped. But he recommended just to trade it in for something else if I could swing it. Honest guy.

Since it overheated not every often, I took it to a Carmax and sold it without an issue.
Posted By: atikovi

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by JLTD
Two weeks ago it threw a code for high coolant pressure


So it must have a coolant pressure sensor? Where?
Posted By: GZRider

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:46 PM

The absolute most I would put into a 150,000 mile 08 Liberty is around $2k, if she likes it. I'd put some coolant in it and sell it with a potential head-gasket failure. You can buy 04-09 Rav4's or CRV's for $6-9 k in good mechanical condition with less miles on them, and they will be significantly less expensive to repair going forward. Just ignore the fact they both look like middle school art projects that won solid participation trophies.
Posted By: Imp4

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by JLTD
Two weeks ago it threw a code for high coolant pressure


So it must have a coolant pressure sensor? Where?

With the head gasket compromised he was likely getting combustion pressure bleeding into the cooling system which resulted in the high coolant pressure code.
Posted By: bullwinkle

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fotoflame
Man that sucks.

My wife had a 2001 Honda Civic and the head gasket went with symptoms similar to what you're experiencing. I read it was somewhat of a common problem for Civics of that generation.

I went to a local mechanic and he said it was better off to just replace the engine rather than spend labor hours on removing the head only to find out it was warped. But he recommended just to trade it in for something else if I could swing it. Honest guy.

Since it overheated not every often, I took it to a Carmax and sold it without an issue.

This is EXACTLY what my brother's '97 Civic (that he bought for his son) is doing-combustion bubbles in the cooling system, heat disappears at random times (usually on interstate off ramps), eventually runs low on coolant. Amazingly a new 16 PSI radiator cap, radiator, and thermostat have it somewhat under control, but he has an HG job in his future!
Posted By: Skippy722

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 10:08 PM

Dealership tried that on my brother when he traded his Dart for the Charger... like dude, the brakes have less than 20k on them!
Posted By: Fotoflame

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 10:10 PM

I replaced the radiator cap and thermostat. It continued to occasionally overheat. The tell tale sign is that the exhaust gasses push all the coolant to the plastic expansion tank. If your coolant was filled to the brim in the tank, you knew you were screwed.
Posted By: atikovi

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Imp4
Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by JLTD
Two weeks ago it threw a code for high coolant pressure


So it must have a coolant pressure sensor? Where?

With the head gasket compromised he was likely getting combustion pressure bleeding into the cooling system which resulted in the high coolant pressure code.


OK, but to set a high coolant pressure code, you need to sense high coolant pressure with some sensor. I don't remember coming across such a part and I have a Liberty myself.
Posted By: bullwinkle

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Fotoflame
I replaced the radiator cap and thermostat. It continued to occasionally overheat. The tell tale sign is that the exhaust gasses push all the coolant to the plastic expansion tank. If your coolant was filled to the brim in the tank, you knew you were screwed.

I think it depends on how bad the HG leak is, his seems to pressurize the cooling system when running, then pull it in after shut off, but it's not really bad yet. I had an '89 Civic wagon that I had a buddy rebuild the head on (incl. 2 exhaust valves, valve job, and resurfacing) that I bought for $100, and a new set of rings, rod bearings, quick hone, and HG/oil pan gasket set had back on the road for under $500. Drove it for a few years & sold it for more than I had in it, so they can be repaired.
Posted By: Imp4

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by atikovi
Originally Posted by Imp4
With the head gasket compromised he was likely getting combustion pressure bleeding into the cooling system which resulted in the high coolant pressure code.


OK, but to set a high coolant pressure code, you need to sense high coolant pressure with some sensor. I don't remember coming across such a part and I have a Liberty myself.


Good point. Maybe OP could post the original trouble code that was generated....
Posted By: double vanos

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 11:20 PM

Since the “coolant high pressure” code can be linked to a head gasket failure, why not go straight to the dash and have a light come on saying “replace head gasket “? LOL
Posted By: Lolvoguy

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 11:26 PM

Have you considered the possibility the HG failure could be related to the exclusive use of Amsoil products?
hide
Posted By: bullwinkle

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/03/19 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Lolvoguy
Have you considered the possibility the HG failure could be related to the exclusive use of Amsoil products?
hide

I could see it, if he's been using SSO in the radiator! I've never been overly impressed with the Liberty, they seem extremely rust-prone (around here), but maybe a boneyard engine would be OK.
Posted By: Snagglefoot

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 12:11 AM

So just what does that warranty cover?
Posted By: GoldDot40

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Snagglefoot
So just what does that warranty cover?

That's what I'm wondering. Would like to know the terms of the warranty for specific components.
Posted By: JC1

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 01:32 AM

To the OP, IMO I would not be putting any large amount of money into the Liberty. Even if your wife loves it, it can turn out to be a money pit quickly.
Posted By: Nick1994

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 05:13 AM

Warranty?
Posted By: clinebarger

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 05:58 AM

I'm guessing this is a 3.7L? Once the engine has been run hot.....It WILL drop a valve seat in the near future! 4.7L & 3.7L Chrysler engines are so bad I won't touch one with a 10 foot pole & warranty it!
Posted By: exranger06

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 12:16 PM

The dealership probably wants to replace the whole engine just to eliminate comebacks. With over 150k miles, it's likely that you'll have some unrelated failure a few months from now, such as a leaking oil pan gasket, and they don't want you coming back and blaming them for it.
Posted By: jeepman3071

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 01:28 PM

Pretty sure their plan is:

1. Tell him it needs a new engine for a number he won't want to spend.
2. Tell him we can get him "the deal of a lifetime" with "no money down" and "lower your monthly payment" on a brand new car from their lot. grin2

I was at the BMW dealer for a recall and had a sales guy approach me and say "I can lower your monthly payment and get you into a newer vehicle TODAY!" I was like well my monthly payment right now is zero, and has been since I've owned the car, so if you can do less than zero I'll bite. Do people really fall for this??

I'd get a second opinion on the engine, although I do tend to agree that an overheated 3.7 is not something you want to put money on.
Posted By: JLTD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Lolvoguy
Have you considered the possibility the HG failure could be related to the exclusive use of Amsoil products?
hide


crackmeup

Hmm yeah this ine vehicle got switched over at around 120k so it's had 34,000 miles to chew through the head gasket. I can only imagine the rest of the seals will fail in short order. LOL


Originally Posted by bullwinkle
The way you described it-"no heat" multiple times, I would have guessed HG trouble right away. Have they even torn into it to see if the heads are good or not? It might not be that hard to repair, since the coolant has likely been sucked in & burned, and the engine has not been overheated multiple times. Guessing this is under the wonderful "lifetime" powertrain warranty? If the engine is truly toast, the stealership likely hastened its demise by not diagnosing it correctly to begin with.


I would be with you there, except that the HVAC issues at first were that we couldn't change where the air went, (manifold) and at one point it was set to hot and only blew hot air, would not change(control panel). While the dash was out they found the heater core had a very small leak so it was replaced, then later replaced again. Plus the vehicle used no coolant until this most recent episode.


I'd like to thank everyone for the commentary and perspective. We "did the math" and are at the tipping point of putting too much money into it. So Monday we will be having a look at a new Mazda CX-5 as a replacement. Will probably just let them have the Jeep in trade.
Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Pretty sure their plan is:

1. Tell him it needs a new engine for a number he won't want to spend.
2. Tell him we can get him "the deal of a lifetime" with "no money down" and "lower your monthly payment" on a brand new car from their lot. grin2

I was at the BMW dealer for a recall and had a sales guy approach me and say "I can lower your monthly payment and get you into a newer vehicle TODAY!" I was like well my monthly payment right now is zero, and has been since I've owned the car, so if you can do less than zero I'll bite. Do people really fall for this??

I'd get a second opinion on the engine, although I do tend to agree that an overheated 3.7 is not something you want to put money on.


Fall for it? I don't know if I'd say they're falling for anything. The dealership sells cars and they have an opportunity to fulfill a customer need for a new or used vehicle. Not everyone has 10k laying around to dump on a vehicle which might be worth a little more than that.
Posted By: jeepman3071

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Pretty sure their plan is:

1. Tell him it needs a new engine for a number he won't want to spend.
2. Tell him we can get him "the deal of a lifetime" with "no money down" and "lower your monthly payment" on a brand new car from their lot. grin2

I was at the BMW dealer for a recall and had a sales guy approach me and say "I can lower your monthly payment and get you into a newer vehicle TODAY!" I was like well my monthly payment right now is zero, and has been since I've owned the car, so if you can do less than zero I'll bite. Do people really fall for this??

I'd get a second opinion on the engine, although I do tend to agree that an overheated 3.7 is not something you want to put money on.


Fall for it? I don't know if I'd say they're falling for anything. The dealership sells cars and they have an opportunity to fulfill a customer need for a new or used vehicle. Not everyone has 10k laying around to dump on a vehicle which might be worth a little more than that.



Fall for the trap of a lower monthly payment (and more interest over time, more debt, etc).
Posted By: KrisZ

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/04/19 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by jeepman3071
Pretty sure their plan is:

1. Tell him it needs a new engine for a number he won't want to spend.
2. Tell him we can get him "the deal of a lifetime" with "no money down" and "lower your monthly payment" on a brand new car from their lot. grin2

I was at the BMW dealer for a recall and had a sales guy approach me and say "I can lower your monthly payment and get you into a newer vehicle TODAY!" I was like well my monthly payment right now is zero, and has been since I've owned the car, so if you can do less than zero I'll bite. Do people really fall for this??

I'd get a second opinion on the engine, although I do tend to agree that an overheated 3.7 is not something you want to put money on.


Fall for it? I don't know if I'd say they're falling for anything. The dealership sells cars and they have an opportunity to fulfill a customer need for a new or used vehicle. Not everyone has 10k laying around to dump on a vehicle which might be worth a little more than that.



Fall for the trap of a lower monthly payment (and more interest over time, more debt, etc).


Exactly and with loan terms going for 7-8 years, most people walking into a dealership have a monthly payment.

That's why the line "I can lower your monthly payments" works.
Posted By: super20dan

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 01:07 AM

cx5 is a wise choice
Posted By: JLTD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by super20dan
cx5 is a wise choice


Thanks.


UPDATE:

So indy mechanic that we trust (only went to stealership for warranty) says there's no way that the heater core has been replaced...so 2 dealers said they changed it, but probably just back flushed it and called it good. Also, said it tested NEGative for head gasket failure, but does need a water pump.

mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad

Debating calling an attorney, news "on your side" type thing, BBB, etc.
Posted By: AC1DD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by JLTD


UPDATE:

So indy mechanic that we trust (only went to stealership for warranty) says there's no way that the heater core has been replaced...so 2 dealers said they changed it, but probably just back flushed it and called it good. Also, said it tested NEGative for head gasket failure, but does need a water pump.

mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad

Debating calling an attorney, news "on your side" type thing, BBB, etc.



I love how these $tealerships keep proving that while they don't earn much else they EARN the name "$tealerships"!
Not surprising to me at all, this kind of thing happens all the time, and the bottom line is it is STILL "THEFT"
since the shops most likely billed it to the manufacturer for a warranty claim. I'm sure the manufacturers would love to know about this, because
not only will they be liable to repay the warranty claim the stores will lose their franchises!
Posted By: 02SE

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 05:54 AM

I'll just say that THE reason I got out of consumer car repair years ago, is because in each establishment I worked at, I was told to rip customers off, if I wanted to keep my job. I refused to compromise my principles, for crooks.

I for one like exposing dishonest, unethical people.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Posted By: caravanmike

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 10:56 AM

I wonder if they knew about the water pump when they did the thermostat? Nothing like buttering you up with frustrating come backs to sell a new vehicle?
Posted By: Miller88

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 01:36 PM

If it overheated, I'd be afraid of it going forward. That engine is going to drop a valve now, at random. Once the plastic water pump impeller falls off and they overheat, they all drop a valve ... or many valves.

I bet the dealers submitted the warranty work when they "changed" the heater core twice. Good warranty reimbursement.
Posted By: JLTD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Miller88
If it overheated, I'd be afraid of it going forward. That engine is going to drop a valve now, at random. Once the plastic water pump impeller falls off and they overheat, they all drop a valve ... or many valves.

I bet the dealers submitted the warranty work when they "changed" the heater core twice. Good warranty reimbursement.


The water pump is still pumping, it's just leaking. I am familiar with the plastic [insert actual material name here LOL] impeller, one dealer tech said it gets corroded by non-HOAT fluid which sounds like hooey to me.

Engine hasn't overheated, the light came on as I pulld nto the dealer and shut it off. There's the possibility of a warped head of course...

And yeah the mgr at the 2nd dealer that didn't oerform the work will get an earful.....
Posted By: Doublehaul

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by JLTD
'08 Liberty in signature. ~154,000 miles. Been solid except for a few niggling Jeep issues, mainly HVAC, which we've had it in for - and warranty work for the same thing- thrice now.

Two weeks ago it threw a code for high coolant pressure and we had a new thermostat installed; all was fine after the repair. Then 5 days ago, wife reported no heat - again. All was fine in between, and suddenly the heat was gone.

Third time no heat, including new manifold under the dash, associated control panel and two heater core replacements mad

I was away so Mrs JLTD stopped driving it and drove mine, only trip in the Jeep was to get her home and later a couple blocks out and back then the drive to the dealer. So back to the dealer we went, for warranty service. Engine's running fine, except started to overheat on the way to the dealer. Pop the hood @ dealership and engine's dry on top with nothing leaking anywhere.


Fast forward 5 hours....get a call and they tell me there's no coolant in the engine shocked2 and they've done a "carbon test" and figured out that the head gasket is gone. OK I think, I've seen a sudden head gasket failure with no external signs before. But why did it take them 5 hours to see that? I was 2nd in line this morning...

Then the service advisor asks, "How much does you wife love this car?". Uh, oh I think. Advisor won't give me the estimate over the phone, says I'll get a texted link. I opened the link and that's when I laughed.


Before I get to the engine--

They also recommend full front and rear brake rotor replacement. I just did the brakes around 20k ago, checked 'em during tire rotation (Sept) and the pads are good. It's 12 years old, got some rust on the calipers, which seems to be the major issue they're having.

Steering rack leaking and needs to be replaced. Just checked the driveway, again, and no sign of anything leaking. The rack was dry when I was under there in October for the oil change (which will be changed again).

Head gasket needs to be replaced, and according to the tech: engine is too old for head gasket replacement, engine needs to be replaced.

And he misspelled "too old" writing "to old" instead. duh

[censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] )^#@$% STEALERSHIP.


Oh, and they want 10 grand. I am tempted to violence, but instead I'll get it to a nearby mechanic we trust. I realize the vehicle's old and to some extent it's throwing good money after bad. Perhaps it's time to get it repaired well enough to go trade it in.....which may be the whole point of the dealer's whopper of an estimate.


/rant

Question: I'm not familiar with the Carbon Test. Can anyone enlighten me before I go down the internet rabbit hole?



Thank God you were running Amsoil (tongue in cheek).

In all seriousness sorry about your rotten luck...id trade that baby in on a nice new toyota so fast their head would spin. 10 grand makes a lot of car payments
Posted By: AC1DD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/05/19 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by 02SE
I'll just say that THE reason I got out of consumer car repair years ago, is because in each establishment I worked at, I was told to rip customers off, if I wanted to keep my job. I refused to compromise my principles, for crooks.

I for one like exposing dishonest, unethical people.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


Kudos to you for having integrity and respect for the customer, we really do appreciate you guys! Thank you! thumbsup
Posted By: JLTD

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/06/19 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by 02SE
I'll just say that THE reason I got out of consumer car repair years ago, is because in each establishment I worked at, I was told to rip customers off, if I wanted to keep my job. I refused to compromise my principles, for crooks.

I for one like exposing dishonest, unethical people.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


Kudos to you for having integrity and respect for the customer, we really do appreciate you guys! Thank you! thumbsup



Yeah....a dealer employee with ethics - a very rare thing. Thanks 02SE.
Posted By: 02SE

Re: I am laughing so hard....not really - 12/06/19 06:32 AM

Thanks, but just to be clear, I haven't been a Dealer or Independent shop employee in a long time.



Do your due diligence. Truly bad shops will usually have a bad reputation on 'Yelp' or other social media.
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